Rotor Valve questions - checking for seal, and which oil for what purpose?!

[NuhJuhKuh]

Howdy!

As Ive mentioned in another thread, I’m getting a band new bass bone, and need to get some further accessories to go with. I’ve had some great advice so far, but I’d like to drill down a bit on the valves to make sure I’m starting on the right foot!

@Blast suggested that I check the valves for air-tightness, and I’ve no idea how to do that. Is it a question of blowing, checking the alignment, or submersing the section in the bath?!

@Posaunus recommended two brands of oil, one of which (Ultra Pure) I can get from Thomann. Am I right in thinking Blue for down the tuning slides, green for under the caps, and red for the bearings? https://www.thomann.de/ie/grease_and_o ... ilter=true

[hornbuilder]

Don't drop oil down your tuning slides. Turn the horn so the bell points up, and drop the oil into the handslide receiver. There is zero benefit to dropping it down the tuning slides, but there are plenty of potential problems from doing so.

[GabrielRice]

@Posaunus recommended two brands of oil, one of which (Ultra Pure) I can get from Thomann. Am I right in thinking Blue for down the tuning slides, green for under the caps, and red for the bearings? https://www.thomann.de/ie/grease_and_o ... ilter=true

This one: https://www.thomann.de/ie/ultra_pure_va ... sional.htm for the valve interiors as Matthew described. The green type will probably be OK, but I use this one and it's great. You can even buy it in larger quantities and refill smaller bottles.

This one https://www.thomann.de/ie/ultra_pure_be ... _light.htm for the valve spindles on both sides - the centers under the caps and the post on the other side that you can see in between the lever arm and the casing.

This one https://www.thomann.de/ie/ultra_pure_li ... ey_oil.htm for the ball joints, pivots, and springs on the lever mechanism.

[BPBasso]

Don't drop oil down your tuning slides. Turn the horn so the bell points up, and drop the oil into the handslide receiver. There is zero benefit to dropping it down the tuning slides, but there are plenty of potential problems from doing so.

Would you mind elaborating on the potential problems? Mixing with tuning slides grease? Running tuning slides grease down on/in the valves?

[BGuttman]

The problem is that tuning slide grease is too viscous for proper valve operation.

If you have a "conventional" tuning slide like a Bach, the inside of the tube leading from the tuning slide to the valve is coated with tuning slide grease. When this is mixed with the relatively light oil it creates a very viscous goop (for lack of a better word) that makes valve motion sluggish. This is less of a problem with a "reversed" tuning slide where the small tube fits OVER the tube going into the valve. Still, there is usually a buildup of tuning slide grease near the end of the neckpipe tube that can be washed down into the valve with the valve lube.

Note that there are several different oils suggested for rotor (or Hagmann or Axial) valve lubrication. The stuff sold for French Horns is generally intended for the spindles. To apply directly to the valves you want something like trumpet valve oil which is "lighter" (less viscous) and for the linkages you want something a bit "heavier" (more viscous). The linkages should be oiled with a material similar to Key Oil used on woodwind instruments. Again, Thomann probably has recommendations for each type of lube. I don't know exactly what is what. For my rotors I use UltraPure piston valve oil for the "dribble to the valve" operation, their French Horn valve stuff for the spindles, and Yamaha Key Oil for the linkages. I would assume any of our Techs would be able to give their favorites.

[Posaunus]

Don't drop oil down your tuning slides. Turn the horn so the bell points up, and drop the oil into the handslide receiver. There is zero benefit to dropping it down the tuning slides, but there are plenty of potential problems from doing so.

Yes. Bad wording in my previous post (which I'll correct) - as Matthew suggests, the Ultra-Pure Professional Valve Oil (=Rotor oil) should be introduced (at least for a single rotor) by dribbling a few drops into the hand-slide receiver, not via the tuning slide. (With the bell facing upward, close the valve, dribble a few drops of oil onto the valve rotor, operate it a few times, and right-side-up the bell; wipe away any excess oil.)

As noted, I now use only synthetic lubricants (Ultra-Pure or Hetman's), including tuning slide grease.

[BPBasso]

Ah well I'll change my ways.

I've been lubing (every day or two) the backplate of the F valve and cone of the Gb valve (axial flows) via tuning slides. I've always waited to squeeze drops after the tip is dead center and straight up & down. Fortunately I haven't noticed my valves being any slower from doing this. I would get the cone of the F and backplate of the Gb via the slide connection.

To reply to OP, I've been happily using only Ultra Pure lubricants for a few months now.
-Ultra-Light(green) on my axial flow valves *Previously I was using the regular, blue cap lube with no complaints
-Lever/Key(red) on the trigger linkages and springs
-Heavy Tuning slide lube for my tuning slides *My slides are loose and leak condensation .. currently in shop being addressed!

[tbonesullivan]

I'm pretty sure the Yamaha manual for their Trombones does say to drip rotor oil down the tuning slide. Not really saying it's a good idea. If it's a reverse tuning slide, that removes a lot of the potential for grease getting in a rotary valve. Now question is what to do with dependent bass trombones. Dump enough into the receiver and hope that it gets into the second rotor, or oil it through the tuning slide? I guess it really does depend on the horn too, with regards to how close together the valves are.

[brassmedic]

I drop the oil straight down the middle of the tuning slide tube so it doesn't touch the sides. The problem with going through the receiver is it works its way back out the receiver and messes up the connection. Actually never had a problem with tuning slide grease mixing with the valve oil.

[hornbuilder]

I wish I had a dollar for every time someone brought in their trombone saying they had pulled the tuning slide to lube the valve, then gotten the slide jammed trying to get it back in. Of course the ends of both inner tubes get rolled in.
For a double valve bass, just do the same thing, but leave the first valve open so the oil falls through to the second valve.
Dependent doubles can be an issue, depending on where the second valve is. I have drilled a hole in the bearing plate, to allow direct access to oil the rotor. Of course this only works if the valve cap sits against the bearing plate to provide a seal.

[brassmedic]

I wish I had a dollar for every time someone brought in their trombone saying they had pulled the tuning slide to lube the valve, then gotten the slide jammed trying to get it back in. Of course the ends of both inner tubes get rolled in.

So true. I had a customer come in and take off his valve slide. When he tried to put it back on, I could see that it wasn't even remotely parallel to the tubes on the bell section. I had to take it away from him and do it myself.

[Mamaposaune]

I use a plastic drinking straw to get the oil directly onto the valve. It's especially useful on my in-line double rotor bass.

[etbone]

I use a plastic drinking straw to get the oil directly onto the valve. It's especially useful on my in-line double rotor bass.

WOW! I never thought of that. Simple, makes sense. Thanks.

[etbone]

I use a plastic drinking straw to get the oil directly onto the valve. It's especially useful on my in-line double rotor bass.

WOW! I never thought of that. Simple, makes sense. Thanks.

[tbonesullivan]

I drop the oil straight down the middle of the tuning slide tube so it doesn't touch the sides. The problem with going through the receiver is it works its way back out the receiver and messes up the connection. Actually never had a problem with tuning slide grease mixing with the valve oil.

When oiling my valves, I do oil through the receiver, but then I put paper towel in the receiver and leave it there to soak up any oil that might come out. On my Indy bass, I have to oil from both ends.

Thing is rotor oil always moves, probably just soaks upwards along the surface somehow. Eventually no matter what I do, it'll get into the tuning slide eventually, which Is why I tend to re-lube my tuning slides once a month. Nothing worse than a tuning slide that won't move because the rotor oil has gotten in, which is too thin. Dang Yamaha and their tight tuning slide tolerances. The tolerances on my Conn 36H alto are also pretty close, so the main tuning slide was not happy for a bit. Oil must have gone right through the valve and into the tuning slide when I was oiling it.