Does the way someone plays a horn change it?

[tbdana]

This might just be my prejudice talking, so I'm asking, as a kind of sanity check and policing my own thoughts.

I'm thinking of buying a used horn from someone online who does not live near me. Horn looks to be in great shape, and it's a model I've been very curious about. But the guy who owns it is a "blaster." He's someone who plays in super loud rock/funk/salsa groups, and blasts away so loud that he over-blows the horn and his tone is terrible, in my opinion.

I, on the other hand, avoid blasting. I play at pretty moderate volume, though I'll lean on it when appropriate but never so much that the sound breaks up. I'd rather play soft than loud, and none of what I play requires blasting away. I guess I'd call myself a finesse player rather than a strength player.

The only reason I haven't bought the horn yet is because I'm concerned that blasting away on that horn for years may have done something to the metal that permanently affects how the horn will play and sound. I got that impression from reading threads here about how playing over time affects the metal molecules in the bell, and can make for a more "brittle" playing horn.

So, what are your thoughts on this? Am I right to take the horn's volume history into account? Or am I worrying about nothing because that's not really a thing?

[hyperbolica]

I do believe that vibration ages metal, but I don't think bad playing will hurt it.

[tbdana]

I do believe that vibration ages metal, but I don't think bad playing will hurt it.

For the record I think he’s a pretty good player, technically. It’s more the constant volume I’m wondering about, if constant overblowing does anything.

And what does “ages metal” mean?

[Finetales]

I've heard that many years of frequent hard playing can wear out a horn. Like it still plays, but the metal is just dead. Not sure how much truth there is to that, though.

For what it's worth, some of the loudest players I know have some of the best-playing horns. I don't think it really matters unless it's an entire career's worth of hard playing. My 3B has been played hard for the 10 years I've owned it and it still plays just like it did day one.

[NotSkilledHere]

i dont really believe it does much really. sure if you play it loudly and forceful enough, you would probably damage the horn, but I feel like that is beyond human capabilities and if it does, it's probably a lifetime's worth of constant playing.

If you wish to debate whether a horn can or needs to be broken in, sure i can agree that playing it in certain ways may "break in" whatever amount of break-inning it needs faster or slower, whether you wish to argue any sonic effects or purely mechanical feels.

I personally tend to lean on the belief that a good horn will start as one and will always be one assuming it receives the care it needs. I think that many good horns tend to decay into bad horns more from poor maintenance and cleaning or poor handling as opposed to being blown into oblivion.

see if the guy is willing to allow returns if the horn is not up to expectations or if you are willing to field the option of selling it yourself if it doesnt meet expectations.

[Doug Elliott]

If that's the way it's been played, at least you know it CAN do that. Anything else is up to you.

"many years of frequent hard playing can wear out"... anything.
That might include many repairs, slide wear, red rot, etc. Probably not metal fatigue except from repairing dents.

[JohnL]

Consider that, if you are asking the question, then the idea has already established itself in your brain, regardless of what anyone tells you. You know you better than we do, so you need to ask yourself if that will be an issue.

[tbdana]

Consider that, if you are asking the question, then the idea has already established itself in your brain, regardless of what anyone tells you. You know you better than we do, so you need to ask yourself if that will be an issue.

Thanks but that's the reason I'm asking. I'm aware that I have a bias. I'm checking to see if it's affecting my thought process in ways it shouldn't. And from what I can tell so far, it was. I'm one who changes my position based on new information -- shocking these days, I know -- and I'm looking to be educated and enlightened. Well, educated anyway.

[brassmedic]

I've heard that many years of frequent hard playing can wear out a horn. Like it still plays, but the metal is just dead. Not sure how much truth there is to that, though.

I played a trombone with a 350 year old bell section and it was fantastic.

[SamBTbrn]

Maybe all the loud playing has made it a better instrument than what it was originally, come at it from the otherside of the thought experiment.

[Reedman1]

When I studied trumpet, my teacher, who also designed and built trumpets, told me that big music stores like Dillon’s have walls full of horns that are full of bad notes. The remedy is to play good notes into them. So…

Speaking logically about how the volume of playing and/or the timbre might affect the molecular structure of the metal in the horn over time, I think it’s unlikely. With woodwinds, temperature changes, moisture changes, and grip force make the wood deteriorate and lose resonance over time. I don’t think the volume or timbre has a direct effect, but a loud, “ugly” player might use too much force in handling the instrument and cause wear or alignment issues, or might maintain it poorly. At that point, the main consideration is whether the repair costs are worth it, and that’s a personal decision.

If you want to do a rigorous test, there may be a materials engineer or a physicist who could set it up for you and obtain answers.

I imagine that if the sound were in the hundreds or thousands of decibels, it could alter the molecular structure… but at that intensity, it might melt the sample first.

I think your purchase is a safe investment unless any repair costs exceed your tolerance.

[Nomsis]

Mechanical stress from acoustic waves can have some effects on the molecular structure of a material. For example, it might increase the number of defects in a metal structure (metals naturally have defects — this isn't necessarily a bad thing). However, constant vibration might actually help relax the material over time, potentially decreasing the number of defects in the crystal structure? Don't know exactly what will be the dominant effect on a molecular level.

I definitely believe that playing can alter an instrument to some extent. I'm referring specifically to the acoustic aspects here — not the more obvious changes caused by moving parts, moisture, or other external factors. When you consider the acoustic energy involved and realize that only a small fraction of it is absorbed by the material, it becomes clear that the overall effect must be quite small.

The next question is: is this effect even negative? I once heard a comment from a trumpet player that made a lot of sense to me. They suggested that years or even decades of good playing can improve an instrument by helping to "lock in" the positions of pressure nodes — and especially the antinodes — because these are the points where the metal absorbs the most acoustic energy. Over time, this might soften specific areas of the metal, effectively "attracting" the nodes and antinodes back to the same spots. This could stabilize certain resonances, improve intonation, and make specific notes speak more easily. On the flip side, if the instrument is played with poor intonation, it might reinforce bad habits by locking in suboptimal acoustic patterns.

In your case, it might even be a benefit if the horn was played for years at high volumes — assuming it was played with good technique and intonation.

Of course, I have no scientific evidence for any of this, and the effect is almost certainly very small — maybe even negligible.

[Sesquitone]

I've heard that many years of frequent hard playing can wear out a horn. Like it still plays, but the metal is just dead. Not sure how much truth there is to that, though.

None! The mechanical or heat energy (for either cold processing or annealing) needed to change the grain structure of a metal is several orders of magnitude beyond that available from a human being (even over a very long period)—especially by blowing air through a tube. Consider trying to raise the temperature of a glass of water (already at room temperature) by even one degree by vigorously blowing bubbles through a straw—"the mechanical equivalent of heat". "Breaking in" or "wearing out" a brass instrument could depend on a variety of factors—but it certainly has nothing to do with altering the grain structure of the metal.

Have the instrument chemically cleaned and thoroughly checked mechanically (for leaks and so on), and Bob's your uncle!

[Doug Elliott]

I wonder how "Bob's your uncle!" translates into other languages

[Posaunus]

I wonder how "Bob's your uncle!" translates into other languages

The meaning is similar to that of the French expression "et voilà!" [Wikipedia]

[Reedman1]

I wonder how "Bob's your uncle!" translates into other languages

The meaning is similar to that of the French expression "et voilà!" [Wikipedia]

In Russian, most likely "tak prosto!" (So, simply!) or "Vot tebye tak!" (There you go.)

[brassmedic]

Hmmm... I always thought "Bob's your uncle" meant more than simply "there it is". I thought the meaning was more along the lines of "You've got it made", or "This is easily achieved for you".

[Sesquitone]

Hmmm... I always thought "Bob's your uncle" meant more than simply "there it is". I thought the meaning was more along the lines of "You've got it made", or "This is easily achieved for you".

All of the above, ". . . , and you're ready to go!"

[Burgerbob]

I thought it was literal. I have an uncle named Robert.

[dukesboneman]

Some horns play better than others - True
Does the horn that plays great for me , play great for you? - Not always
Are some easier to play than others ? _ Yes
They are a conduit for our expression.
Dana , Doug and I could all play the exact same instrument, sound different and have different opinions on that same horn.

[GabrielRice]

I would ask a completely different question, personally: would you be able to resell it for at least what you paid for it?

If the answer is yes, and you have the cash flow to spend the money without hardship, then by all means satisfy your curiosity and buy it. If you like it, keep it; if you don't, flip it.

One of my good friends who is an excellent trumpet player has built up a collection of horns that play absolutely great this way.

[hyperbolica]

would you be able to resell it for at least what you paid for it?

Yeah, this is the only answer you need. Play the horn. Play it for a month and re-evaluate. You prolly have to buy it to do that.

Buying a horn you don't like is not the end of the world. Just make sure you don't lose a lot of money on it after you sell it.

[blast]

The logical part of me says that a player cannot change the instrument, but my experience over many years tells me otherwise. At the extreme end of things, I've known people change their instrument every couple of years, because they ' blow them out'. What I see in such people is very acidic body fluids,and suspect they are rotting the leadpipe. I've played several such instruments and indeed, found them dead and uncentered. A more subtle thing is trying someone else's instrument and finding that I recognise their playing in the feel of the instrument. It's indeed subtle, but a sensation nonetheless. Even when I lend a trombone to someone, it comes back a little different and takes time to return to the way it was before. No logic.

[GabrielRice]

I know I changed a mouthpiece over the course of just 2 or 3 years.

In 2021 I got 3 of the same spec shanks from Doug Elliott, made in the same sitting at his lathe, and put them on 3 of the same spec cups and rims. When I first got them they were closer to identical than any duplicate mouthpieces I've ever had from anybody.

I put one of them in my case and took it to all my gigs (once we came back from Covid anyway). Now it plays VERY differently from the others. Feels more open and sounds more open - even noticeably louder - than the others, according to unbiased listeners.

Why? My body chemistry? More shank wear from insertion? Who knows?

[brassmedic]

I thought it was literal. I have an uncle named Robert.

Originally, it was.

[Kbiggs]

On the old TF, sabutin (Sam Burtis, RIP) told a story about this. He had an old horn that he really liked—I believe it was a 6H. It was a good jazz horn, and could play ballads and lead very well. He sold it to a fellow who played a lot of trad jazz. Apparently, he played VERY loud, and had that kind of trad jazz sound. A few years later he had a chance to play the horn again and it was ruined, IIRC. It had no more of the beauty and subtlety that Sam liked about it.

Can the way someone plays a horn change it? Perhaps we just don’t know what to examine… yet.

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

[Posaunus]

Think positively.
If somehow I could loan some of my trombones for a while to Joe Alessi or Christian Lindberg!
I can only imagine how much better they would sound when returned to me!

[tbdana]

Think positively.
If somehow I could loan some of my trombones for a while to Joe Alessi or Christian Lindberg!
I can only imagine how much better they would sound when returned to me!

They could have quite a little business playing goodness into other people's trombones.

I actually feel like my horn adjusts to me over time. Whether that's true or not I don't know. But it feels that way. I suppose it could be me adjusting to the horn, but that's a lot less fun to consider.

[MalecHeermans]

The logical part of me says that a player cannot change the instrument, but my experience over many years tells me otherwise. At the extreme end of things, I've known people change their instrument every couple of years, because they ' blow them out'. What I see in such people is very acidic body fluids,and suspect they are rotting the leadpipe. I've played several such instruments and indeed, found them dead and uncentered. A more subtle thing is trying someone else's instrument and finding that I recognise their playing in the feel of the instrument. It's indeed subtle, but a sensation nonetheless. Even when I lend a trombone to someone, it comes back a little different and takes time to return to the way it was before. No logic.

I have had the same, completely illogical, experience. Exactly as you describe.

[WilliamLang]

The artist and romantic in me says Yes, and the scientist in me also says Yes. Some things are just felt and proof comes later, if at all. This is such a fun question to me!

[MahlerMusic]

I actually feel like my horn adjusts to me over time. Whether that's true or not I don't know. But it feels that way. I suppose it could be me adjusting to the horn, but that's a lot less fun to consider.

Same here. I really disliked my King 606 at first — I picked it up as a cheap travel horn for a family reunion, and it just didn’t feel right. One season, my amateur orchestra was playing a lighter piece. The principal was on alto, and the bass trombonist asked to borrow my 88H. That left me with no choice but to play second on the small-bore tenor.
Hoping to improve the sound, I de-lacquered the bell — but it didn’t make much of a difference at first. Still, something shifted. I got excited about the challenge, started practicing like crazy, and over time, the horn really grew on me.
Did de-lacquering help? Technically, maybe a little. But the real improvement came from how it reignited my enthusiasm. That motivation led to serious practice, and that’s what truly transformed the experience. Now, I actually enjoy playing it.