Some Play High, Some Play Low

[Mamaposaune]

Asking this for myself and some of my students, I don't remember seeing it addressed before. (I can almost hear the jokes the title may inspire)
Is there something inherently wrong with a player's emboucure or air support if they consistently play on the high or low side of the pitch? Meaning, on whatever horn they are playing, they need to either push the tuning slide all the way in, or conversely pull it out 2-3" to play a 1st position tuning Bb in tune?
I've always had to play with my tuning slide most of the way in, only pulled out 1/2" or so. Not sure why, but it may be because I was always taught to play with as dark a sound as possible, and that was my way of attempting to achieve it.
I have several young students (middle-schoolers) who are the opposite, to the point of almost having the tuning slide falling off when tuning their Bb to a tuner set at A 440. I'm also working with these same students on opening up their sound, to greatly simplify the "how" I stress not keeping their tongue against the roof of their mouth after articulating a note, relaxing the aperture, and keeping the throat relaxed.
Any insights? I'm really more interested if I am missing something, again with my students and myself, or I should not worry about it, not whether they should be playing 1st position off the bumper.

[AtomicClock]

relaxing the apature

I'm curious about this part. What do you mean by this? I've been having some good results in playing with a less relaxed aperture, especially in the low range.

[JLivi]

this is a great question!

My guess has always been that it is an issue with the embouchure, but there are other factors that play into it. I find that with middle school students specifically, they're rather small, so I don't really hammer home air and breathe as much as I would an 8th grader or a high school student. You can almost always hear when it's an air issue vs an embouchure issue.

One phrase that has been working for me is "drop your chin." For some reason all the other phrases didn't work for the students. I've always had a hard time opening up students sounds. But when I started to say drop your chin, that just seemed to work with younger students.

The other thing I'm noticing with nasally sounds is that students aren't allowing air to pass through their lips. So instead of the aperture being somewhat of a circle, it's more flat. Eventually when they get high enough on the horn, their lips stop letting air pass through. So on top of having them "drop their chin," I make sure that they're allowing for air to pass through their lips.

Now to cover your point on tuning. I've always had to pull the tuning slide out a similar distance on most horns. So I'm not sure what's up with that. I never put too much thought into it. My guess is that it probably is an embouchure thing, but also how we hear ourselves, and what we want to sound like. I would only think it's a big problem is the tuning slide is all the way out to the point of falling out. But this I'm unsure about.

I'm not sure if that fully answers your question, but I'm looking forward to hearing other responses.

[Mamaposaune]

relaxing the apature

I'm curious about this part. What do you mean by this? I've been having some good results in playing with a less relaxed aperture, especially in the low range.

(Spelling corrected) Just that many young students take the buzzing a little too literally, so they are squeezing their lips together and barely letting any air pass through.

[BGuttman]

Reginald Fink actually discussed this in his "Trombonist's Handbook". My copy is not here so I can't give you a quote, but if you can get your hands on a copy you should find an interesting analysis.

[hyperbolica]

Some people act like it's a moral failing to pull your slide more than half an inch. News flash - its not. But I also had a friend who was fond of saying "I'd rather be sharp than out of tune".

My buzz used to be a little high, so I'd chip notes on the top side. I still have to pull out my tuning slide to keep the pitch down . I keep working to fix that.

Make sure the buzz is in the center of the pitch. Buzz pitch can be hard to hear correctly. You don't want to spend a lot of time buzzing, but you have to calibrate the chops to the ears. You have to make sure you're buzzing where you intend to buzz.

[harrisonreed]

It's not a moral falling to do that, but could be indicative of other mechanical issues at work. It's better to put the cylindrical section of the slide on the hand slide end, rather than in the bell side. Pulling the tuning slide out excessively works against the design of the horn.

[Doug Elliott]

I think the reason is often a combination of several things.
In no particular order, referencing pitch too high (or too low)

Pinching the lips together (or too loose/relaxed)
Tongue too high (or too low) for the pitch being played
Jaw too closed (or too open).
Mouthpiece too small (or too big) for the player.
Horn too small (or too big) for the player.
Mouthpiece placement not ideal for the player.
Horn angle not ideal for the player.
Hearing or pitch recognition issues.
Something actually wrong with the horn - leaks or otherwise.

Any combination of one or more of these.

[imsevimse]

Besides the list Doug gave it could be how we are built. Our oral cavity is probably different. I lost a tooth in the back of my mouth that I have not replaced. I'm thinking even such small things could change both intonation and sound since I have experienced small changes of mouthpiece cup-volume can change both intonation and sound.

/Tom

[Windmill]

I also think that the way your HEAR notes does affect the way you play them. I struggled a lot with tuning until I figured out that I tend to hear everything slightly too sharp, therefore played everything slightly too low... I didn't work on my technique but spent some time on re-calibrating my ear. That was it

[Kbiggs]

I also think that the way your HEAR notes does affect the way you play them. I struggled a lot with tuning until I figured out that I tend to hear everything slightly too sharp, therefore played everything slightly too low... I didn't work on my technique but spent some time on re-calibrating my ear. That was it

I believe this is part of my story, too. I also have tinnitus and frequent headaches which contribute to my pitch perception.