Jazz trombone with trigger

[Sesquitone]

This entire thread and no mention of the Kanstul kbt760. It would be a no Brainerd. I played one for years!!!
Salsabone

Some information from Thomann.


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[Posaunus]

This entire thread and no mention of the Kanstul kbt760. It would be a no Brainerd. I played one for years!!!
Salsabone

Perhaps because very few were manufactured and sold during their brief production period.
And I expect that not many were used to play jazz.
Hidden treasures, apparently.
R.I.P., Kanstul.

[hyperbolica]

You must have had a custom one. I owned one for a short time and couldn't get rid of it fast enough. It was one of the few trombones I've ever played that I would classify as a "bad" instrument. Sheet-metal ripping kind of bright. I've owned a Kanstul bass for 10-12 years, so I'm not a Kanstul hater.

[salsabone]

I am sorry for your experiences. Same model with different results for a different player. If you think trombone model opinions vary do not ever get into vintage stereo equipment!!!!!

[Aznguyy]

Anyone remember what horn Jay Gibble used? I just remember his valve was tuned to G.

[Klimchak]

Anyone remember what horn Jay Gibble used? I just remember his valve was tuned to G.

It is an edwards that Todd Clontz made a G attachment for.

[Sesquitone]

Anyone remember what horn Jay Gibble used? I just remember his valve was tuned to G.

As Dana wondered with curiosity earlier: “what’s the advantage of having an F attachment on a (Bb) jazz horn?” Presumably operating in the tenor-trombone range above E2.

Answer: not much! The second and third F-attachment harmonics provide only four attachment alternates (with the same sound-path length as their slide-alone equivalents)—a couple more with longer sound paths. Higher F-attachment harmonics are too close to other slide-alone harmonics to be useful (except for “special effects”).

By contrast, the G attachment provides sixteen equivalent attachment alternates in the (otherwise awkward) low-tenor range (E2 – B3), i.e. across the whole of the bass-clef staff. The (second, third, fourth, and fifth) attachment harmonics interleave in between the (second, third, and fourth) slide-alone harmonics in a very uniform way, mimicking the facile slide-alone upper register, where harmonics are separated by thirds and seconds—a favourite range for jazz soloists. The G attachment allows that facile range to be extended down by a full octave.

Here’s a still of Jay playing the optimal “Jazz trombone with trigger”, taken from a Capitol Bones workshop video.



.

[Matt K]

I have tried both G and F attachment for this type of thing and I prefer an F. It puts both C and B natural and low F, E, Eb, and D in comfortable positions. While the G or Gb would be better for C and B (and give alternatives), I don't find slide motion to be particularly challenging for the extra notes you can use it for (D, Db, G, Gb), and on the lower side, it requires going past 4th for low D and effectively eliminates Db. F attachment low C is dubious, but not impossible on the small/medium bores that exist (3BF/607/608, 356) because of an E pull, if you really want that though.

When I solo, I seldom go past 4th. F attachment means I can stay pretty much in the 1-4 range, with the occasional 5th. I can down to pedal G with an F attachment and have only 3 (playable) notes outside that window (Db, C, Gb) and one already inaccessible note anyway (low B) compared to a G.

[Sesquitone]

Now we’re drifting into the “debate” about the main function of a trigger attachment:
(a) filling in (some of) the tenor gap (Eb2 – B1) to connect to pedals, or
(b) providing handy attachment-alternates in the tenor register (E2 and above), or
(c) some (but not much) of both.

On a Bb trombone, if we are content to reach to (slide-alone) 6th and 7th positions (or equivalent positions with the attachment) when necessary—i.e. as on an attachment-less trombone—then there is a unique solution to criterion (a): the perfect-fifth attachment. The five available second-harmonic attachment notes, Eb2 – B1, are just exactly the five missing notes in the “tenor gap” between the first and second harmonics of the Bb instrument. [Similarly, for pedals.] Other attachment harmonics are either too close to slide-alone harmonics or (e.g. on the attachment fifth harmonic) of much longer sound-path length—equivalent to “8th” – “12th” positions in Bb. [In addition to Bb/Eb, a single-trigger large-bore bass trombone tuned C/F has all positions 12% closer and is (physically) lighter.]

For criterion (b), i.e. slide facility in the lower register equivalent to that above the fourth harmonic in Bb alone—without regard to necessarily continuously extending into the tenor gap—the minor-third tuning is optimal, almost exactly mimicking the upper-register distribution of harmonics of the Bb instrument an octave or more lower, with the same (nominal) slide positions. As a sub-tenor “bonus”, we get Eb2 and D2 (and their pedals).

The second, third and fourth harmonics of the major-third attachment provide nine handy attachment alternates (of the same sound-path length as their slide-alone counterparts), with sub-tenor bonus notes Eb2, D2, and Db2 (and pedals). The attachment fifth harmonic pretty much duplicates the Bb fourth harmonic. [Some bass trombonists with inline Bb/F-Gb-D tuning find that they use the “second-valve” (alone) more often than the F valve.]

The ubiquitous perfect-fourth attachment satisfies criterion (c).

For a “Jazz trombone with trigger”—presumably a tenor rather than bass—the minor-third tuning is optimal. Either Bb/G [compatible with attachment-less Bb tenor or Bb bass with valve(s)]. Or, for a really powerful “lead” and “solo” instrument: C/A (lowest non-pedal note E2—same as with the attachment-less tenor in Bb). Again, all positions 12% shorter than on the Bb/G combination. And quite a bit (physically) lighter. [Sub-tenor bonus pedals (compared with Bb/F): C2 and B1. But Eb2, D2, and Db2 are missing.]