What key are we in?

[AtomicClock]

I am constantly forgetting what the key signature said, after I look at it. That's maybe understandable in boring band parts. If I'm resting a lot, or playing footballs or rhythmic patterns that don't range very far, I may not see some portion of the scale for a long time. But it's also true in other music. Even in Rochut #1 or #2, I miss notes because I forget the key signature. And I've been playing those for over 30 years.

I assumed I would get better at this "for free", as I got better at music in general. But now I want to work on it as a skill in its own right. I just don't know how.

The only strategy I can come up with is to (finally!) start playing melodies by ear. Maybe if that skill improves, then the right accidental will suggest itself even if my conscious brain forgets the key sig.

Or maybe when I look at the key signature, try to recognize the key by name (assuming major tonality), rather than accidental count?

Any suggestions?

[LetItSlide]

It might not take much more than practicing the scales a bit more, thinking about the key signature as you practice them.

The fact that you’re aware of it probably means you’ll get better at it if you play enough.

[hyperbolica]

Yeah , I do this too. For me it's a concentration thing. I knew someone who always carried a yellow highlighter and always highlighted the most recent key signature. When I played his parts, I always knew what key I was in, or could find it fast.

Big band charts have this nasty habit of only writing the key signature once, even if it changes in the middle of a line, so if you look back to the beginning of the line or even the beginning of the piece, you might get the wrong key sig. I know all the scales, it's not that. It's short term memory.

[LetItSlide]

Big band charts have this nasty habit of only writing the key signature once, even if it changes in the middle of a line … I know all the scales, it's not that. It's short term memory.

Yes true! This has bit me more than once.

[harrisonreed]

The worst is the dang horn music that is all written in C but with the solfege key written at the beginning.

[BGuttman]

The worst is the dang horn music that is all written in C but with the solfege key written at the beginning.

I'll bet you are talking about horn music in French. Most of my American music calls for Horn in a letter.

By the way, trumpet music (especially classical) calls for the instrument in a variety of keys as well.

[harrisonreed]

Yes, but in those cases the trumpeter usually can change to the correct instrument. That isn't even the case for horn the days. They definitely learn what the solfege keys mean and how to play them. But these stupid parts are still being printed to this day.

For the trombonist trying to cover horn parts, is just an additional stupid layer of obfuscation. I get it, I get that there are transposing instruments, but in this case, just write the dang notes you want played in concert pitch. Even trumpeters of any level of skill will generally play whatever part on their C trumpet and transpose the Eb, D or Bb part in their head. Why are we still doing this?

[tbdana]

I am constantly forgetting what the key signature said, after I look at it. That's maybe understandable in boring band parts. If I'm resting a lot, or playing footballs or rhythmic patterns that don't range very far, I may not see some portion of the scale for a long time. But it's also true in other music. Even in Rochut #1 or #2, I miss notes because I forget the key signature. And I've been playing those for over 30 years.

I assumed I would get better at this "for free", as I got better at music in general. But now I want to work on it as a skill in its own right. I just don't know how.

The only strategy I can come up with is to (finally!) start playing melodies by ear. Maybe if that skill improves, then the right accidental will suggest itself even if my conscious brain forgets the key sig.

Or maybe when I look at the key signature, try to recognize the key by name (assuming major tonality), rather than accidental count?

Any suggestions?

I suspect you've simply fallen into a bad habit. I'm guessing that you don't pay attention as much or as often as you think you do. You excuse forgetting the key signature when you're resting a lot, or playing footballs or rhythmic patterns that don't range very far, or playing Rochut etudes at home. But you're getting a little frustrated that you forget when it's important to you. This sounds like someone who is in the habit of not paying enough attention to the key signatures. You do it so often when it's not important that now you struggle when it is important.

The solution is to form a new habit. They say it takes 21 days to start a new habit. The habit you want to have is to be paying full 100% attention to the key signature all the time. Even when you're bored. Even when you're doing those Rochut etudes you've played a million times. So the trick is to seriously focus in on the key signature every time you play, and keep referring to it in your mind as you play. Even those Rochut etudes. Even the boring stuff and the footballs. Keep that key signature consciously in mind.

And in three weeks you'll have trained yourself enough that you should start getting much better at remembering key signatures.

We are what we do. We are what we practice. And if you practice focusing on the key signature, you'll become someone who always knows the key signature.

[ghmerrill]

I am constantly forgetting what the key signature said, after I look at it.

For me this is fairly recent and definitely just age related. My short term memory just disappears now and then and I wander about the house looking for some object (tool, can of something, phone, ...) that I just had in my hand but has suddenly simply disappeared. My wife is starting to exhibit similar behavior -- but she's two years behind me, which I remind her of when she thinks I've gone entirely goofy in some cases. On the other hand, she needs me to call her phone a lot since she can't find it. I'm developing careful habits to avoid this situation -- as much as I can, but I don't think the problem is entirely solvable.

Forgetting what key I'm in is one facet of this. I NEVER used to have a problem with it. But I do now -- particularly since the only group I'm playing in is a big band, and (as mentioned) a lot of pieces have the key signature at the top and then you're on your own.

So I'd suggest that if you're of "a certain age", this may be the fundamental problem. The only think I can think of is to add the key signature in some stand-out way to each section (or even each line -- putting it in each measure seems a bit excessive, but maybe not) so that you can retrieve it quickly. That's one of the benefits to using a tablet and software. I just mark the crap of each of my pieces -- in multiple colors and with appropriate symbols or even written notes. I have no shame.

[AtomicClock]

So I'd suggest that if you're of "a certain age", this may be the fundamental problem.

Well, if I'm not there now, I'm getting close. But I've had this problem my whole life. It's not getting worse. Yet.

Dana's probably spot-on with the "pay more attention" suggestion (it's surprising to hear her suggest that someone think more ). I just have to figure out how to do that.

[Richard3rd]

The pencil is my friend. I've at times written at the top of the first page notes to the effect of "All in G" or key of C, Bb @ 45, Ab @ 135 to end. Then at each key change I write the new key next to the key signature circled. I lead a couple of jazz bands and I've even reminded players before we start where the key changes are. So some of my reminders are also there to remind the other players.

[tbdana]

Dana's probably spot-on with the "pay more attention" suggestion (it's surprising to hear her suggest that someone think more ). I just have to figure out how to do that.

I've actually gone through this, and I did something that sounds stupid, but it helped me. Your mileage may vary, and you might need to think of your own stupid solutions. LOL! But what I did was to set a timer on my watch to make it beep every 30 seconds, and then I started playing. Whenever it beeped I'd mentally say the key signature "out loud" in my brain. Then I moved it to beep once a minute. Then once every two minutes, and I kept verifying that I remembered the key signature every time it beeped. What it did was force me to keep it in mind. And after a while, I stopped having problems with it.

BTW, I did it because I am experiencing age-related memory decline. I may not be able to fend it off forever, but for now that decline can go screw itself.

[AtomicClock]

I played some Blazhevich tonight. Apparently, my clef memory is just as bad!

[NathanSobieralski]

Yes, but in those cases the trumpeter usually can change to the correct instrument.

This is generally not true. Mostly we transpose everything for trumpet pitched in C. Trumpet players learn the various intervallic relationships for the various keys as part of our training. Mostly for C trumpet, but also Bb, Eb/D trumpet occasionally. Baroque parts in D are often played on the Piccolo trumpet in A, transposed up a 4th.

[AndrewMeronek]

I think the best approach is to do multiple different sensory contexts.

Play melody by ear, yes.
Read the key signature, visually, yes.
Each key signature is associated with a specific set of slide motions. I don't think specifically of slide position numbers, but more as how it feels with my arm and face to be in that key.

[BrassSection]

Chord sheet playing has some advantages. Tells you by name what key you’re in, no key signatures. Very few key changes, a few are noted, but most just change the chords. Take your pick which octave… Then on the rare occasion I have actual music I gotta stop and think what key is this?? But at least I know if I’m playing below, in, or above the staff and what instrument to use! Last minute key change, I’m basically improv and by ear anyhow, no big deal on Bb horns, (just use bass clef fingerings for trumpet) but really gotta put thinking cap on for French horn double transpose. (I’m used to concert pitch transpose) Unless we drop a key, then it’s simply swap Eb for F tuning slide. Guitar players just break,out the capo for key changes. And still whine about it. But they whine about F# instead of Gb too.

[harrisonreed]

Yes, but in those cases the trumpeter usually can change to the correct instrument.

This is generally not true. Mostly we transpose everything for trumpet pitched in C. Trumpet players learn the various intervallic relationships for the various keys as part of our training. Mostly for C trumpet, but also Bb, Eb/D trumpet occasionally. Baroque parts in D are often played on the Piccolo trumpet in A, transposed up a 4th.

You're likely right -- I think I've been blessed with the trumpeters I've worked with. The guys would show up with "surf board" stands with 6 trumpets on them, and could play all the different instruments really well.

[stevenvortigern]

Each key signature is associated with a specific set of slide motions. I don't think specifically of slide position numbers, but more as how it feels with my arm and face to be in that key.

I second this. I'm sure you have the Rochut melodies in your ear, but focusing on the name of the note you see is throwing you off. Instead, focus on learning the correct arm pattern. If the melody is in your head, the arm pattern is the only other thing you really need to know. There is zero need to think notes names while you play music you are already familiar with.

This is even true with sightreading, but I think about it in a different way. I attribute the tendency in my playing to forget what key I'm in to the general tendency to overlook anything that is not a note when sightreading. I've tried to make it a habit to notice anything and everything on the page. This includes things like special barlines, like the first bar of a repeated section, dynamics, where the D.S. is and key signatures. All pay dividends to a well executed sightreading.

Over the past few years I've gotten better at reading 4 part piano music and I've really noticed improvements in my ability to zoom out and take in more of the page all at once. Developing this ability has helped me have a less laser focused intense approach to sight reading. This helps me to read forward while simultaneously playing, in time, the bars I read a moment or two earlier. The added processing time improves rhythmic accuracy but also allows for more time to notice things like key signature changes.

If you can execute one set of notes while reading another, you're not likely to be thinking of note names as you play them. I've had good success with students learning melodic fragments in all 12 keys by asking them to listen to me play while watching my slide to learn and imitate the arm pattern. If we move quickly through keys, they'll likely lose track of what notes they're playing but it doesn't hinder their execution.

[Wilktone]

Or maybe when I look at the key signature, try to recognize the key by name (assuming major tonality), rather than accidental count?

If you're trying to memorize key signatures by accidental count, I think that's why you're struggling. Learn to associate the key signatures with the tonality you're playing, including the minor keys.

[JTeagarden]

I would say memorize and play major and minor scales based seeing the key signature only (i.e., not writtern-out scales), so you get used to all the notes in the scale as in that key, so you have all the notes of the scale in your head when you see it, and not just 1-3-5.

You could do it on the circle of 5ths.

It's all about patterns!

[AtomicClock]

I just spent some time with an online "major or minor" listening quiz. I did not do well. Then I tried listening to some simple melodies (Art of Phrasing), and had trouble picking which pitch was the root (tonic). Hmm.

edit: this is why I post under a pseudonym!

[ghmerrill]

edit: this is why I post under a pseudonym!

Because you can't remember your name? But then how do you remember the pseudonym?

There may be some cognitive issues here that simple training can't address. I can only emphathize with you. I am developing this technique of attempting to remember things that will help me remember other things. There are cases where this works, but I'm not sure I can remember the details of these.

[AtomicClock]

Because I don't like admitting my basic music theory failures.

[ghmerrill]

I have no shame.

It took me much of my lifetime to figure out that there really isn't much theory in music theory. It's a lot like chess theory: a lot of practice and history. It ain't like gravitational theory.

[AtomicClock]

there really isn't much theory in music theory.

Well, my deficiencies in intonation, then. And counting time. And jazz. And everything else.

[BaritoneJack]

The pencil is my friend.

And mine - wouldn't be without it! One British brass band I played with (I was in the training band), the main band was working on a test piece for a First Section contest, and the conductor told the band:
"If, by a week before contest day, your score isn't covered with pencilled-in notes, I'll want to know why not. I'll be giving you a shedload of instructions, maybe just for one player, on one note - and you'd better get it right on the day, so don't trust your memory!"
(as an aside, it wasn't just because the players were old enough for memory loss to be a problem; well over half the players were under 25, and many were under 16!)

I've at times written at the top of the first page notes to the effect of "All in G" or key of C, Bb @ 45, Ab @ 135 to end. Then at each key change I write the new key next to the key signature circled. I lead a couple of jazz bands and I've even reminded players before we start where the key changes are. So some of my reminders are also there to remind the other players.

When I started playing with brass bands, first thing I noticed was that, almost invariably, even the most competent players would refer to a key as "one sharp", "three flats", or whatever, and not have a clue what the formal name of the key was, nor even whether it was a major or minor key! Maybe it was because our bands don't use improvisation? With three dozen players, playing in multi-part harmony, the only time you can improvise, to a degree, is when you're playing a solo, so it's only one player putting in variations, and the rest stick strictly to the score.