Articulations on Bass v. Tenor

[JTeagarden]

I find it much, much easier to get clean articulations on a bass tromboe than on a tenor, I just seem to have more room on the larger and deeper mouthpiece.

Is this just a trueism on bass v. tenor, or is somerthing else going on?

The very first time I tried playing a bass trombone, it just seemed easier, more responsive than a tenor, not sure if this is because I am more naturally a bass trombone player, because a bass trombone is more forgiving of sub-optimal embouchure mechanics, or still some third thing!

[claf]

Same here.
It got mostly fixed when I switched my tenor mouthpiece to a bigger one (5g to 4g-5g).

[Doug Elliott]

The most common embouchure type, Reinhardt IIIA, which JTeagarden is, functions better in every way on larger mouthpieces. Smaller pieces frequently cause articulation difficulties like splatted attacks and overshooting.

[Posaunus]

The most common embouchure type, Reinhardt IIIA, which JTeagarden is, functions better in every way on larger mouthpieces. Smaller pieces frequently cause articulation difficulties like splatted attacks and overshooting.

Doug,
When you say "larger mouthpieces" do you mean just larger Rim diameters (easily addressed with your mouthpiece system), or do you also mean larger Cup volumes?

[claf]

Doug, how do we know when to go bigger and when to stop?
I think I'm good on your 103 rim, but I wonder (without any specific reason) if bigger could be better or not.

[JTeagarden]

The most common embouchure type, Reinhardt IIIA, which JTeagarden is, functions better in every way on larger mouthpieces. Smaller pieces frequently cause articulation difficulties like splatted attacks and overshooting.

I had assumed larger mouthpiece was all relative to the horn being played: So largish relative to the average MP used on the horn being played.

What you write suggests that, all things being equal, players with a Reinhardt Type IIIA embouchure will be better bass trombone players than tenor players, do I understand you correctly?

[JTeagarden]

I do so much less fighting with my instrument on bass than on tenor, phrases are easier to keep connected, I can play softly with a good sound, I don't feel like I'm constantly re-acquainting myself with the horn every time I play it.

[Doug Elliott]

By "larger" I'm talking about inner rim diameter.
With my system you can try moving up one size at a time until you lose focus or endurance. Then back off one size smaller, that's usually the best size overall.

[Posaunus]

By "larger" I'm talking about inner rim diameter.
With my system you can try moving up one size at a time until you lose focus or endurance. Then back off one size smaller, that's usually the best size overall.

Thanks Doug!

[hyperbolica]

This is a very interesting topic to me because I have the opposite experience as some - I'm much better on tenor than bass - and the same experience as others - better off on bigger mouthpieces than smaller. I made the DE change, and now play DE XT 104 rims on all tenors. I have tried DE bass pieces, and they're pretty good (110-114 XB/LB/SB J and K cups, 8 shanks), but I find the Curry 1.5d and 2D pieces actually give me the best overall results. I don't have any answers, mainly questions in this regard, especially on bass.

[tbdana]

By "larger" I'm talking about inner rim diameter.
With my system you can try moving up one size at a time until you lose focus or endurance. Then back off one size smaller, that's usually the best size overall.

It sounds like your philosophy is that one should play on the largest rim they can before losing focus/endurance. Like, if there's a range of rims that feels comfortable, people should go with the largest one that works. Is that a fair characterization?

[Doug Elliott]

Not necessarily, I'm specifically referring to one embouchure type - but it's what you are too.
It's less important if you only play small bore, more important if you play different size horns.
There are always exceptions, some players who have no problems switching sizes. But some issues show up later.

The biggest benefit is the ability to switch to different size tenors, and alro, without having to maintain your chops on all of them.

[harrisonreed]

I suggested a move to a larger rim inner diameter to a few trombonists, and after an initial few days of "this is weird", they eventually agreed that, "yeah this is much better".

When they, as we all do, thought that maybe they had made a mistake and tried their old mouthpieces again, to a person the consensus was "how the heck was I playing this tiny mouthpiece before?"

[claf]

I tried to suggest this to some fellow trombonists that had trouble playing from the high A up (all of them are playing on a Bach 6-1/2 AL).
Almost every time the answer was "my teacher forbid me to playing anything other than my Bach 6-1/2 AL).

I can understand this kind of advice for someone starting on the instrument, but when someone has the same issue for several years, it's hard to justify...

And I'm never saying "it will fix your issue", I'm saying "it worked for me, you should give it a try".

[Burgerbob]

Rim size definitely is a factor. I use 104 rims on all my tenors as a result.

However, that's not the whole story- bass players need to learn where the sweet spot is on various tenor trombones (just like tenor players need to the other way around). It's very easy to blow past that and have really tense chops as a result... Which means articulations are slow and limited. Let the instrument inform your technique, don't press yours onto the instrument.

[tbdana]

Not necessarily, I'm specifically referring to one embouchure type - but it's what you are too.
It's less important if you only play small bore, more important if you play different size horns.
There are always exceptions, some players who have no problems switching sizes. But some issues show up later.

The biggest benefit is the ability to switch to different size tenors, and alro, without having to maintain your chops on all of them.

Makes sense. I'm one of those who switch rim sizes with every horn I play. Hasn't caused any problems. I just approach each one like it's a different instrument and not simply a variation on one instrument, especially between tenor and bass trombone. I actually can't imagine playing the same rim size on a bass and tenor trombone. I don't think I could do it without one or the other suffering.

I find this stuff fascinating, and don't pretend to understand it. Thanks for explaining mo bettah.

[Savio]

I must say I dont have so good articulation, so no expert. Always work on it because I think articulation and sound are among the most important aspects that define us. I believe that equipment has to be right. Tenor mouthpieces on tenor and ditto on bass. For me it's impossible to play both tenor and bass. But many can do it. I believe they have to practice both equally, but in prinsiple the technique should be the same?

[hyperbolica]

It's good to be reminded of these things from time to time. I've been having some trouble with some excerpts that weren't sounding the way I thought they should sound. I was on 88h, swapping back and forth with the 547 and 525 slides, and some mouthpieces in the mix as well. Playing bass in all rehearsals and gigs, but only practicing tenor. I'm sure this is not the way to do it. But I had been centered on DE E and F cups, but as soon as I put the G 4 in the 525 slide, everything came together. It's a good thing the G worked because that's the biggest small shank combo I have. It's not a good thing to learn that equipment can solve a problem, except that I knew I could play this stuff, it just wasn't coming out right.

[JTeagarden]

Whenever I have the feeling like I am fighting an instrument every time I play it, it suggests something isn't right with the set-up.

[hyperbolica]

Whenever I have the feeling like I am fighting an instrument every time I play it, it suggests something isn't right with the set-up.

So you buy another setup hoping it's different somehow. And sell it. And buy another. ....

The closest I've come was that custom 71h. And I sold it like an idiot. I know what a good feeling is on tenor (to me it's either an 88h or a Getzen 3508), and I just can't replicate that on bass.

[JTeagarden]

Assuming this were true, how is it possibly your concern?

By "set-up," I mean horn and MP conbination, Doug knows my tendencies very well.

[GabrielRice]

Equipment can't replace practicing, but the wrong equipment can cause problems and the right equipment can solve them.