Jazz vs. Classical Articulation

[EriKon]

Maybe a controversial topic but I'm curious to hear thoughts on this: Is there a difference? Should there be a difference? Is it just about (no) tongue-stop?

I will hold back my own thoughts about that for a bit.

[tbdana]

I wouldn't know what the orthodoxy says about this. But when I play classical music my articulations are precise, even, and "square." When I play jazz, my articulations are generally very soft in comparison. I use a different tongue approach between the two genres. Does that mean I never soft tongue in classical or hard tongue in jazz? No.

[EriKon]

I wouldn't know what the orthodoxy says about this. But when I play classical music my articulations are precise, even, and "square." When I play jazz, my articulations are generally very soft in comparison. I use a different tongue approach between the two genres. Does that mean I never soft tongue in classical or hard tongue in jazz? No.

Interesting, thank you for that! Can you elaborate on what you exactly mean by "square"?
And about soft tongueing: Is there a difference between melodic legato passages in classical or jazz for you in terms of how you articulate?

Another thing I'm curious about: If I'm not mistaken you did some of the recording business in LA. How was it going there? Those soundtracks are often a variety of different styles, so I'm pretty sure you guys changed your approach between the pieces that were played? So to a more classical approach for a symphonic piece and a more jazz approach in other commercial styles?

[Burgerbob]

answer: it depends

[EriKon]

answer: it depends

On what? the music, the people?

[EriKon]

I'm wondering about that since this video found it's way into my YouTube algorithm:


I found that very interesting. He says some things that I agree with and some not. But to me (maybe it's due to phone speakers and no good recording quality) some of those examples sound the same for both styles although he describes them of being different.

[Doug Elliott]

Depends on lots of things... the natural tendencies of the horn you're playing, the needs of the music and ensemble, and the style of the other players.

I never use a tongue stop for anything, I'm quite capable of stopping the air without chopping it off.

[Burgerbob]

I don't think Peter says anything "wrong" in that video... Only that his examples don't count all the time, or even most of the time.

[VJOFan]

In a chat Louis Dowdeswell has with Greg Spence on the former’s YouTube channel, they discuss how Mr. Dowdeswell finally had a golf breakthrough when he found a teacher who stopped coaching his stroke and simply taught him the shots. That is practicing the draw, the fade etc. I think there are 7 basic golf shots? By doing that he developed a good golf stroke.

I’m thinking learning articulations is similar. They can be learned by paying attention to the result needed. If I’m playing a quiet piece I have to know enough about it (or experiment enough) to know if it is supposed to be more like L’il Darlin” or Brahms First or something else. The articulation is a small part of the equation, but it will change to match my sound goal along with the note length and choices of dynamic shifts and use of vibrato.

If someone is using weird sounding articulations they are probably just not experienced enough with the genre they are playing. I guess I’m saying it doesn’t make sense to learn a “jazz articulation’ or a “classical articulation” away from a specific piece of music. I do some pretty hard and ugly tonguing in Stravinsky and some very very square and gentle articulations playing pads in Latin arrangements. There isn’t anything I do that is “jazz” or “classical” by itself.

[tbdana]

Interesting, thank you for that! Can you elaborate on what you exactly mean by "square"?

I suppose I mean a note started with a full, unified sound and strict adherence to notation. To me, an articulation is more than just the tongue, it's everything involved in beginning a note. When playing classical music I go for what people call "block" or "rectangular" notes, a big part of which has to do with how the notes start. It can be legato, staccato, marcado or whatever, but it begins the note in that "block" kind of way. Joe Alessi has a great little speech on this. I'm not doing it justice because I'm just an inarticulate idiot today.

And about soft tongueing: Is there a difference between melodic legato passages in classical or jazz for you in terms of how you articulate?

In terms of using the tongue, not really. But the approach is different. I'm having trouble explaining. If you listen to how I recorded "Oblivion" you can hear that I'm using a jazz articulation and approach on it. Compare that to those who have played the very same tune with a classical approach and you can hear the quantitative difference I'm completely failing to articulate here.

Another thing I'm curious about: If I'm not mistaken you did some of the recording business in LA. How was it going there? Those soundtracks are often a variety of different styles, so I'm pretty sure you guys changed your approach between the pieces that were played? So to a more classical approach for a symphonic piece and a more jazz approach in other commercial styles?

I did that kind of work back when the earth's crust was still cooling, but one of the things that helped you get the work back then was being able to play a wide variety of genres and styles authentically. But, man, it's such an individual thing. Composers have particular people they want. Contractors have their favorites and their lists. And some guys are just ubiquitous in the studios on every damn gig.

But to your point, in my ancient and fairly limited experience I never really encountered a lot of different styles or genres within a single movie or TV score. The style is usually consistent throughout, unless there's, like, a particular scene where a jazz combo is playing in a smokey nightclub or something, interrupting an otherwise symphonic score. And if that happens, they'll usually hire folks who can cover both styles if they are both required in one session, though I've also seen them bring in a specialist for that one odd chart. I remember a movie where they brought in Bill Watrous for just one chart that required a blazing jazz trombone solo, while other guys were hired to play on the rest of the sessions.

But man, the guys these days are so good it's unreal. Most of these guys can do it all. Guys like Alex Iles and Bill Reichenbach are just from a different planet. I don't think the general trombone population has a real understanding for how much better the great L.A. studio guys are at playing a variety genres than the rest of us.