Tenor Clef - Betamax of Clefs?

[robcat2075]

Probably way off topic, but those of us that were around when Betamax was an option for video recording remember that it was actually a superior format to VHS. It was pushed aside because some large companies had already committed to VHS. Maybe it is relevant?

Jim Scott

I don't know if this is true, but I remember hearing that VHS won the battle with Betamax because at the time most pornography was available on VHS only, and that was enough to tip the scales. Not sure what the metaphor is for tenor clef on that, but it's bound to be an obscene one...

VHS had at least two big plusses: Much lower prices for the players and longer running-times for the tapes.

A standard two-hour VHS tape could hold most movies, while a Betamax tape was limited to one hour at the outset.

Histories vary as to whether the porn thing was a factor at all. I had my first VHS deck for ten years before i found out there were stores renting it.

[AtomicClock]

Well, the first time I visited a rental store, I certainly remember a curtain covering a doorway that led to a room where children weren't allowed. I could only speculate what was in there.

[VJOFan]

alto clef to fake harmony parts

Trying to get my head around this. I can only make it work mentally if I am thinking of a Bb transposed treble clef part. (Or a tenor clef part) In that case reading in alto clef puts me a third away.

Am I missing how it would work with bass clef or concert pitch treble?

[HappyAmateur]

If your goal is finding lots of popular music to play, I'd also suggest learning to read treble clef "down an octave" where is played

Note that the relationship of treble and bass clefs (particularly in piano music) is that is (Middle C). Some parts I've seen have some high notes written in embedded treble clef -- something much more common in cello music. In the bass clef 1st trombone part of Brahms' "Academic Festival Overture" there is a high A and a high C both written in treble clef inside a normal bass clef part.

In my (truly ignorant) opinion, treble clef an octave down splits the difference between tenor and alto clefs and therefore could easily replace both.

It is ironic that tenor clef is named for the tenor vocal part, but tenor vocalists in classical choral works replaced tenor clef with treble an octave down ages ago. Trombones/cellos never made that same shift. Perhaps this is due to the ubiquitous use of piano in choral instruction/rehearsal driving a change to something more common/familiar, whereas trombones/cellos were perhaps happy to stick with what they knew rather than fix what wasn't broken?

Bass clef an octave up is also an interesting alternative to eliminate ledger lines (and standard notation for the bass recorder).

I feel like ledger lines could still be very effectively reduced if all music only had treble and bass clefs and the use of 8va/8vb, and such a move would simplify things for both composers and performers (once established as standard; the transition would likely be frustrating for many people).

Of course, I say all this selfishly as a new trombonist who already knows treble and bass clef and doesn't want to make my middle-aged brain learn another new thing (a new instrument alone is nearly more than I can handle). So I'll freely admit that if I had already been an established trombone player I'd be quite upset if composers decided to suddenly switch tenor to treble 8vb.

[CalgaryTbone]

The "C" clef is as I understand it, technically one clef. It's a moveable "C" clef - where you have the two backwards C's come together to show the location of middle C. A few places that were common at one time were given names - Soprano clef with the C on the bottom line; Mezzo-soprano on the second line; Alto on the third line; Tenor on the fourth line; Baritone on the top line. Alto and Tenor are the only ones that have survived into modern times (except perhaps in modern performances of early music). Just to make it even more confusing, I have seen examples of "C" clef, where the two C's come together on a space (as an indication of treble down an octave, for instance). Also, I remember in Ear Training class at Juilliard, where we were presented with examples of "G" (treble) and "F" (bass) clefs that could be moved to place their named notes in different spots (actual examples of Bach chorales with the "G" clef actually down one line (the tighter circle in the clef indication twists around "G" - in this case it was the bottom line). There was another way of indicating Baritone clef by moving the "F" clef down one line.

The thing is that Tenor clef isn't something new - it's actually quite old and is one of the 2 survivors (along with Alto) of a very old notation, as are Treble and Bass clefs as we know them. Tenor clef is also very prominent in music for Bassoon and Cello. That alone is a good reason to learn it, since a lot of great solo music that we like to play comes from those instruments. The orchestral music that was referred to in a previous post (Brahms) that used Bass and Treble is just a bad edition - the original is in Alto all the way through the part. A couple of French composers did that (sparingly), but Treble wasn't a clef that you would see with any regularity (except in B flat transposition in Brass Band) until more recently. I think that's partly a jazz influence (fake books are in treble clef), and partly that some arrangers aren't well versed in C clefs.

Personally, I like connecting with the original notation and thereby connecting with the history of the instrument. I also like using clefs to be able to practice music in different registers and keys. If you don't learn at least the 3 clefs we see regularly, you limit the music you can practice and perform. That's OK if you're not ambitious, but then don't complain if it shows up on your stand and you can't read it.

Jim Scott

[BGuttman]

Jim, I've seen that embedded treble clef in some cello music as well.

I agree that the bass clef part for Academic Festival is a "cop out" part, only made worse by the embedded treble clef.

When I was a kid taking lessons from a guy who played in the NBC Symphony he passingly mentioned use of treble, bass, and 5 C clefs as a way to transpose. He was a trumpeter and transposing parts was pretty routine (unless you had a closet full of trumpets in different keys). Also, as a backing for lots of soloists they might want a tune in a different key to better fit their range. Being able to transpose quickly and on the fly was a survival skill. Wish I had learned this when I was still a kid.

[CalgaryTbone]

When I was in school, the trumpet players studying with Vacchianno all worked out of the Bass clef Arbans to use Bass clef as a way of reading E flat and E natural transpositions, as well as reading F parts as one step away, in the same way they would read C parts on a B flat instrument. Meanwhile, all the trombone players were using the trumpet book, reading it like tenor and then also reading it in alto and bass. We would also have to play in the adjacent key (B flat etudes in B natural for instance).

At a summer gig I used to play in upstate NY, one of my friends there was a clarinet player who was active in the Early Music scene on Renaissance woodwinds. We would occasionally play duets, and he would just say "what's a good key for you?" before we would play a tune. He could just see his part in any key - sort of like a giant movable C clef, where he could place the C anywhere he wanted. I was stuck with the 3 clefs I knew. It was humbling. Once in a while, he'd say can we do this key instead, because this shawm doesn't have a good F sharp, or something to that effect.

We were playing an opera earlier this season where the French horns had 7 different transpositions in their parts. I feel pretty lucky that we only have 3 clefs that come up in any regular way. It's good for your brain to learn to read in different ways, but I'm glad that anytime I wish to venture out of the usual 3 clefs, it's for fun or to jump in to help out on a missing part - not something that is part of my usual job description where I would be expected to play it perfectly.

JS

[tbdana]

I dunno. I like tenor clef. It fits best for the most notes trombones usually are required to play.

[BGuttman]

I dunno. I like tenor clef. It fits best for the most notes trombones usually are required to play.

This is true.

Transposed treble clef as used by mid 19th century brass instruments put the useful range of all the instruments between 2 ledger lines down and two ledger lines up (much like we see for trombone parts in tenor clef).

[LeTromboniste]

Yup, all clefs are movable (or better yet, it's just one bit gamut of notes, and the clef just tells you which lines are visible). G on the first line (often called French violin clef) is not uncommon in old prints or manuscripts. C on the first line was the standard clef for a choral soprano line until the 19th century. Just open any mid (even late) 1800s Breitkopf score of Mozart, Beethoven, etc. It's a mandatory clef for conductors and collaborative pianists to be fluent with.

A lot of early trombone music is in baritone clef. In fact the very earliest solo piece specifically for trombone switches back and forth between bass and baritone clefs. Those low bass trombone parts in Gabrieli polychoral music? Sub-bass clef (F on the top line). Sometimes also shown by the Gamma clef (which indicates Gamma ut, which is the G at the bottom of the grand staff) alone or together with an F clef.

At a summer gig I used to play in upstate NY, one of my friends there was a clarinet player who was active in the Early Music scene on Renaissance woodwinds. We would occasionally play duets, and he would just say "what's a good key for you?" before we would play a tune. He could just see his part in any key - sort of like a giant movable C clef, where he could place the C anywhere he wanted. I was stuck with the 3 clefs I knew. It was humbling. Once in a while, he'd say can we do this key instead, because this shawm doesn't have a good F sharp, or something to that effect.

Playing with shawms is one of the most common reason I have to sight-transpose. We typically need to play anything with them either up a step or up a fifth, although sometimes also weirder transpositions. The ability to use any clef, octave-displaced, comes in very handy then.

[CalgaryTbone]

It could have been crumhorn (sp?) as well. He had a whole trunkful of instruments with him, even though there was no place for them to be used at this gig - just staying in shape. This was a talented guy - one evening when we were playing some duets, he suggested switching instruments. I forget what I ended up playing, but whatever it was, I had to play in a single octave in the tonic key for it - I could vaguely recall recorder fingerings for "the scale" from the 4th grade (or thereabouts). He had never played trombone - I got him to get the 2nd, 3rd and 4th harmonics in first and explained the slide positions, and he managed to play an easy duet - I don't remember much about my efforts on his instrument - alcohol may have been involved.

JS

[2ndTrom]

From my perspective - a former 2nd trom in a brass band, who has taken a recess from it for longer than I wanted, and currently also a cello student - learning tenor clef opens up a lot of music. It's only a fifth above the bass clef, so that shouldn't be a problem.

There are - or were - I haven't checked recently - some small collections of exercises and tunes written in tenor clef for trombone, freely available on the 'Net.And yes, as a brass band trombonist, I have seen my fair share of tenor clef parts. It is possible to transpose on the fly, and that's what they told us to do, so to keep the music flowing, that's what I did. But I'd advise you to learn to read it natively if you want to play orchestral parts. But then, that's just me - I learnt trombone froma brass band player, as a Bb instrument, while at the same time I was working through A New Tune A Day, which uses the bass clef. I can now get muddled by simple switches from C Bass Clef to Bb Treble Clef - it takes me a while to adjust.

[BGuttman]

...

There are - or were - I haven't checked recently - some small collections of exercises and tunes written in tenor clef for trombone, freely available on the 'Net.And yes, as a brass band trombonist, I have seen my fair share of tenor clef parts. It is possible to transpose on the fly, and that's what they told us to do, so to keep the music flowing, that's what I did. But I'd advise you to learn to read it natively if you want to play orchestral parts. But then, that's just me - I learnt trombone froma brass band player, as a Bb instrument, while at the same time I was working through A New Tune A Day, which uses the bass clef. I can now get muddled by simple switches from C Bass Clef to Bb Treble Clef - it takes me a while to adjust.

Simone Mantia's "The Trombone Virtuoso" is available on IMSLP (for free) and contains a section with exercises in alto, tenor, and transposing treble clefs. Exercises are much easier than Blazhevich (which is what I learned alto and tenor clef from).

It could have been crumhorn (sp?) as well. He had a whole trunkful of instruments with him, even though there was no place for them to be used at this gig - just staying in shape. This was a talented guy - one evening when we were playing some duets, he suggested switching instruments. I forget what I ended up playing, but whatever it was, I had to play in a single octave in the tonic key for it - I could vaguely recall recorder fingerings for "the scale" from the 4th grade (or thereabouts). He had never played trombone - I got him to get the 2nd, 3rd and 4th harmonics in first and explained the slide positions, and he managed to play an easy duet - I don't remember much about my efforts on his instrument - alcohol may have been involved.

JS

I think alcohol can be very useful when dealing with these instruments

[brycefegley]

My extremely limited experience with tenor clef is it shows up in sections that include notes that are too high (above) for me to play with any facility anyway, doubling the challenge. Bach's D-major 6th Cello Suite is a good recent example I was reading through and abandoned.

But I definitely second the practicality of knowing the clef for helping to transpose B-flat trumpet parts on jazz charts, which my late uncle clued me into years ago.

[Posaunus]

My extremely limited experience with tenor clef is it shows up in sections that include notes that are too high for me to play with any facility anyway, doubling the challenge.

But I definitely second the practicality of knowing the clef for helping to transpose B-flat trumpet parts on jazz charts, which my late uncle clued me into years ago.

If you continue to play trombone, you will have much more than "limited experience" with tenor clef. It's mandatory to know it for some literature - if you're not facile with tenor clef, you won't be invited back.

And yes, it's also incidentally handy to read Bb treble parts.

Time to head back to the practice room to work on your range and your clef studies.

[MrHCinDE]

This is true.

Transposed treble clef as used by mid 19th century brass instruments put the useful range of all the instruments between 2 ledger lines down and two ledger lines up (much like we see for trombone parts in tenor clef).

Couldn’t agree more, tenor or Bb transposed treble sit nicely.

Incidentally this got me thinking about tuba. I used to play symphonic and solo repertoires in bass clef on a BBb tuba, then go to brass band practice and read transposed Bb treble clef. So much easier not to count all the ledger lines. Why is most tuba music written in plain bass clef and not with 8vb like double bass?

Being able to read both clefs did come in very handy when I was asked to play on a CD recording with my old youth symphony orchestra (having practically retired from tuba and sold my BBb). The loaner instrument they had for me was an EEb tuba and all parts were in bass clef. If I hadn’t had the experience of playing valves in Bb transposing treble clef I’d have been properly stuck, having never even picked up an EEb tuba before the start of the rehearsal. The simple transposition trick saved my ass.

[Grotewobbo]

I started on trumpet and then taught myself trombone. I figured out that the trumpet valve combinations translate exactly to the trombone slide positions. For example the low D and C# on a trumpet are normally the only 2 notes you play with valve combo 1+3 and 1+2+3. On trombone you usually only use position 6 and 7 for the low D and C#. So as trombone is basically the same as trumpet but an octave lower I started to play and read it in Bb as well. It's not a C instrument but somehow you should learn it in C Bass or something. I get a headache reading in bass C because regular general notes are already placed on the 5th line of your music paper. I get dislexic reading all those notes above the 5th line and it's so unnecessary. Trombone is not a C instrument, it's a tenor instrument in Bb. So just write it down the same way as a tenor saxophone.

[Sesquitone]

This is from a fairly thorough Wikipedia article on clefs. Missing is the "male-voice" F clef: set on the top line of what looks like a treble clef but sounding an octave lower.

[Matt K]

I much prefer tenor to bass clef. When I write, I almost always have the first part in tenor clef but also make a bass clef version so that players can choose, if I’m not the one playing first.

[BGuttman]

Wow. There are some really esoteric clefs there.

One that seems to be missing is a tenor voice clef symbol that is the G clef in its normal position but with a small 8 attached to the bottom of the symbol. I've only seen it used in choral music for Tenor voice.

[Sesquitone]

One that seems to be missing is a tenor voice clef symbol that is the G clef in its normal position but with a small 8 attached to the bottom of the symbol. I've only seen it used in choral music for Tenor voice.

Yes, that is equivalent to the male-voice F clef I mentioned. There's also the G ("treble") clef with an 8 attached to the top of the symbol—sounding an octave higher. Used for soprano, sopranino, and higher-sounding recorders, &c.

For the garklein (a recorder sounding two octaves above the written notes of a standard G clef), the notation 15 above the symbol is sometimes used. Why “15” instead of “16”? I’ll let the Google AI agent answer that in typical clear and well-presented style.

AI Overview
To play notes two octaves higher on the treble clef, you would use the notation 15ma, which stands for 
quindicesima (Italian for fifteenth), not 16ma. 
Here's the reasoning behind using "15" instead of "16":
1. Interval Counting: In traditional Western music theory, intervals are typically counted inclusively, meaning both the starting and ending notes are counted as part of the interval.
2. Octaves as a reference: An octave spans eight notes when counting inclusively (for example, C to the next C).
3. Calculating two octaves: If you consider the interval of two octaves, you're essentially going up 7 scale steps, then another 7 scale steps, which totals 14 scale steps. However, when counting the interval inclusively, you count the starting note as "1," then count up 14 more notes to reach the note two octaves higher. This results in a total of 15 notes, making it a "fifteenth". For example, if you start on C (1), going up two octaves leads you to the next C (8), and then another C (15).
4. Established Terminology: The term quindicesima (fifteenth) for a double octave is ingrained in musical tradition and established terminology. 
In essence, the choice of 15ma rather than 16ma reflects the traditional way of counting musical intervals in a diatonic scale, where both the starting and ending notes are included in the count, rather than a direct mathematical multiplication of 8 by 2 to get 16. 




.

[LeTromboniste]

Wow. There are some really esoteric clefs there.

One that seems to be missing is a tenor voice clef symbol that is the G clef in its normal position but with a small 8 attached to the bottom of the symbol. I've only seen it used in choral music for Tenor voice.

All of those we encounter somewhat to very frequently in my line of work (plus the modern vocal tenor G clef you mention, which is one of the most common we have to read because of modern editions of vocal music). The "French violin clef" is found in music from everywhere, not just France, but it's especially common there. But you'll frequently see violin parts of German music that momentarily switch to that clef to reduce ledger lines for short passages.

All the C clefs are extremely common, because original vocal music uses them, all the time. Baritone clef is extremely common, and a lot of original trombone parts use it. Subbass clef is less common, but not entirely uncommon either. A lot of those low bass trombone parts in polychoral music use it.

There's an additional clef that I mentioned earlier in this thread, the Gamma clef, indicated by the Greek letter Gamma, used to show the position of the low G two octaves below the treble clef G. That clef can be on the second line (usually together with an F clef on the fifth line) indicating a "subbass clef", or can be on the third or even fourth line (theoretically could even be on the fifth line but don't remember ever seeing that).

Another note about clefs: for quite some time in the late Renaissance and baroque periods, certain clefs in vocal music implied automatic transposition. The "natural" clefs, soprano (G2), alto (C3), tenor (C4) and bass (F4), usually imply no transposition. The "high clefs", treble (G2), mezzo (C2), alto (C3) [when assigned to a tenor part] and baritone C5 or F3, imply a downward transposition by a fourth or fifth depending on the key signature. However, instruments without voices can, and generally should, play those high clef parts at pitch – the clefs are even labeled by certain authors as "per strumenti". You'll even find music where the basso continuo part is notated a fourth or fifth lower than the vocal parts, clearly showing that the singers should transpose. One author (Viadana), in a piece for solo soprano notated in treble clef with the continuo notated a fourth lower, then adds a note at the end of the continuo part saying "if instead of being sung, the solo part is played by a cornetto, then the organist must transpose a fourth higher". This whole question of clefs indicating transposition has caused (and somehow still causes) a lot of debate and confusion, in particular with regards to the proper pitch level for some sections of Monteverdi's famous Vespers of 1610, even though the primary sources are all really clear about it.

[robcat2075]

In written languages there's a thing where... as more symbols are deployed, the longer it takes to master the craft and/or the fewer people who do master it.

Compare the Mesopotamian's cuneiform with its 1000+ symbols that only a priestly scribe class could use, to the Mediterranean cultures who settled on alphabets with only a few dozen symbols (thank you, Phoenicians*), simple enough that fairly ordinary people could write letters to their aunts and leave graffiti as they traveled.

Some number of symbols are needed to avoid ambiguity but there is a circumstance where adding more symbols doesn't mean more will get done.



* yes, I know.