Das Lied von der Erde, 2nd trombone

[Rmverdi]

Was wondering what instrument people play for this part. There are a number of low Cs in it, some needing a great deal of weight. Is there any tradition of playing bass trombone for it?

[AtomicClock]

I don't know. But after looking at the parts, I doubt an orchestra would spring for the doubling fee.

[CalgaryTbone]

The C's are in all 3 parts, and it's an exposed moment. In school, I played it with a conductor that kept wanting more - I used a bass trombone mouthpiece for those spots, and pulled the F attachment tuning slide to help get the C low enough. The first rehearsal when I used the 1.5G, the section got a smile and a look of approval from the podium. You don't need 3 bass trombones, but you do need some weight in the sound so it's not left to the bass player on their own. Lots of time to adjust the tuning slide on the valve too.

Jim Scott

[EdwardSolomon]

No, definitely not. There is absolutely no call whatsoever for using a bass trombone to play either the first or second trombone parts in Das Lied von der Erde. By that time, it was expected by Mahler of tenor trombonists to cover a complete chromatic range from low C to high C.

In all of Mahler's music scored for 3 trombones, the instrumentation is 2 tenors, 1 bass.

In all of Mahler's music scored for 4 trombones, the instrumentation is 2 tenors, 2 basses.

The additional 3 trombones offstage in Symphony Nº 8 are 3 tenors (with a range to high C).

[Schultz]

By that time, it was expected by Mahler of tenor trombonists to cover a complete chromatic range from low C to high C.

In all of Mahler's music scored for 3 trombones, the instrumentation is 2 tenors, 1 bass.

In all of Mahler's music scored for 4 trombones, the instrumentation is 2 tenors, 2 basses.

The additional 3 trombones offstage in Symphony Nº 8 are 3 tenors (with a range to high C).

Isn't it more common to play Mahler's Symphonies 2, 3 6,& 8 with 3 tenors and a bass?
From your own post we can reason that Mahler could have expected the tenors to play the low stuff in the Tbn 3 parts.
But if your instrumentation claim is documented somewhere i'd be fascinated to read more about it!

[arich621]

It’s usually more common to play Mahler 4 with 0 tenors and 0 basses

Agreed with the others, no need for bass. Just played this a few months ago, and like Jim said, you have plenty of time to pull the F tuning slide out for help and get a beefy low C.

[Schultz]

typo. I shall correct!

[Posaunus]

Agreed with the others, no need for bass. Just played this a few months ago, and like Jim said, you have plenty of time to pull the F tuning slide out for help and get a beefy low C.

I believe that some (not many) large-bore tenors have long enough slides to play the low C without pulling the F tuning slide.

[arich621]

Agreed. Just saying the time is there for it, if needed. All to say, definitely tenor for 1st and 2nd trombones there.

I would disagree with the statement about all the 4 trombone symphonies being 2 tenor and 2 bass though. Mahler 3 and 6 are both commonly done with 3 tenors (Chicago just did both this spring that way), and many others do too if they already have an assistant principal position in the orchestra. Mahler 2 is probably more common to use bass on 3rd. All this to say…orchestras do it all sorts of ways for different reasons.

[Doldom]

Rather, in Mahler's time, maybe there was no such thing as the real "bass" trombone ?
Double valve bass trombone was invented in mid 20th century,
and the real old "F" bass trombones were already in demise at Mahler's time.
There were quart valve trombones that were called "tenorbass posaune" and Mahler wrote for these instruments.
Maybe the weite of the posaunes were different through the parts, but I think there was no real "bass posaune" in Mahler's time.
I may be wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[BGuttman]

The trombone players of 100 years ago in the Boston Symphony (probably among other orchestras) had tenor trombones with E attachments. This low C would be well within the range of such an instrument.

The attached picture shows the BSO brass of 1921. August Mausebach, 2nd trombone (in the back row, 2nd from right) is holding an instrument with an E attachment.

[EdwardSolomon]

Isn't it more common to play Mahler's Symphonies 2, 3 6,& 8 with 3 tenors and a bass?
From your own post we can reason that Mahler could have expected the tenors to play the low stuff in the Tbn 3 parts.
But if your instrumentation claim is documented somewhere i'd be fascinated to read more about it!

Sorry, Nº 6 is usually 3 tenors, 1 bass.

It is current performance practice in the UK and Europe to perform the other symphonies and Das Lied von der Erde using the instrumentation I specified. North America deviates from this by using a tenor as Trombone 3 in all 4-part writing in Mahler's music.

[CalgaryTbone]

Isn't it more common to play Mahler's Symphonies 2, 3 6,& 8 with 3 tenors and a bass?
From your own post we can reason that Mahler could have expected the tenors to play the low stuff in the Tbn 3 parts.
But if your instrumentation claim is documented somewhere i'd be fascinated to read more about it!

Sorry, Nº 6 is usually 3 tenors, 1 bass.

It is current performance practice in the UK and Europe to perform the other symphonies and Das Lied von der Erde using the instrumentation I specified. North America deviates from this by using a tenor as Trombone 3 in all 4-part writing in Mahler's music.

Part of the reason for using 3 tenors and one bass on the 4 part Mahler Symphonies in N. America is that some of the orchestras carry 4 trombones as full-time members. The orchestra management isn't going to hire another player when they're already paying 4. Now in some cases, one of those players might double on bass, so they could choose to use it for the Mahler symphonies. Those parts tend to sit in a range that could fit either instrument. Mahler 6 has a 4th part with a lot of low playing, but it's only in the last movement. When I've played it, we hired an extra tenor player who played assistant in the first 3 movements, and 3rd in the last. Then the bass trombonist would play 3rd for the first three movements, and then switch to 4th for the last.

Jim Scott

[Schultz]

Sorry, Nº 6 is usually 3 tenors, 1 bass.

It is current performance practice in the UK and Europe to perform the other symphonies and Das Lied von der Erde using the instrumentation I specified. North America deviates from this by using a tenor as Trombone 3 in all 4-part writing in Mahler's music.

I'll agree it's done from time to time, more commonly when the orchestra has a Wechsel Posaunist who can chose themselves what they want to play, but i've seen plenty of examples on youtube where
Mahler 2
NDR Hamburg with Gilbert
Concertgebouw with Gatti
Berlin Statskapelle

Mahler 3
Berlin Phil with Mehta
Concertgebouw with Jansons
LSO with Haitink

are all using the 3T 1 B formation.

It seems it's pretty much up to the player than as a blanket "performance practice"
Much like many European bass trombonists like to use Contra for the trombone 4 part in Alpine Symphony