Nervous before playing

[BrassSection]

Lost count of how many years I’ve been the brass section in church band. No sweat normal days, had a big name leader come years ago for an evening and was gonna play after the normal band. We finished, he told us to stay on and play with him. Didn’t bother me at all. Quartets with pros don’t bother me. Ensembles don’t bother me. Previous most nervous I felt was a duet, daughter on piano and myself on euph. Swallowed hard and all went well. Have a pro trumpet player join us on occasion Sunday mornings, first time I was a little nervous having him beside me, mostly stayed on trombone that day. Few months later he was back, one song 2 trumpets seemed appropriate so I played mine. Afterwards he told me to stay off the low brass more and let the trumpet ring out. Never nervous again with him there. Sunday he was back, this time a trumpet duet was preplanned. Was Mr Never Had a Trumpet Lesson in His Life nervous playing a trumpet duet with a pro??? Is the Pope Catholic! Sucked it up, went well with me on first trumpet part…treble clef to boot. Planning a second duet in August. Hopefully I’ll be 2% less nervous. Nobody from all the brass in his group wants to play off chord sheets, so a low brass duet not likely. I’d probably be nervous anyhow on low brass.

My take on trumpets…a necessary evil in the brass world.

[tbdana]

I don't have solutions for your nervousness, but I'm following this because I'm interested. Can you tell me why you feel nervous?

The reason I ask is that I'm on the other end of this stick. I'm a "pro" who plays in a number of community groups, and I've been dismayed to learn that people get "nervous" or "intimidated" playing with me. I don't understand that, and it's a gut punch. I'm always super supportive. Have never criticized anyone, publicly or even privately. I don't understand why people would be nervous around me. It makes me feel bad and unwelcome, like I shouldn't even be there. If you can explain what about your situation makes you nervous, maybe I could understand my own situation better.

I'm sure this is common. I played with a wonderful trombone player who got so nervous she had to take beta blockers to manage her performance anxiety. While I hesitate to recommend the medication route, have you given that a try?

[ghmerrill]

... I've been dismayed to learn that people get "nervous" or "intimidated" playing with me.

It's not about you. It's about them.

[ghmerrill]

I played with a wonderful trombone player who got so nervous she had to take beta blockers to manage her performance anxiety.

I believe that this has become quite commonplace now, and that physicians are quite willing to prescribe beta blockers in such cases.

I have to confess that I just don't get nervous in playing/performing. I recall being VERY nervous at my saxophone lessons in the 6th grade (first year of playing) because the instructor was a Napoleanic martinet sort of tyrant to students. But I don't recall being nervous after that -- including playing for juries at the state level, or large or small audiences. I think that early in life I decided that making a fool of myself in order to get better at something was a perfectly good trade-off.

I was once (tuba) in a pretty decent amateur brass quintet where the 1st trumpet had a degree in music education and trumpet performance. He was really very good -- in practices. But he had a deadly case of performance anxiety at genuine performances, and could be 100% relied on to commit bloopers because of this. I'm sure this is what motivated him to abandon a career in music and turn to software tool development -- at which he also was excellent.

[BrassSection]

Probably my insecurity is of his years of education and performing vs my training was only on baritone, bass clef, up to half way through Breeze Easy Book 2 before being thrown into the band and no more one on one instruction. Only two trumpets, if I make a blunder it will be noticed, and it probably wont be the pro! Self taught trumpet, trombone, French horn, and tuba. Oh yeah, and an occasional stint on drums. I know my limitations and only try to play within my ability. Not that I’m content where I’m at, always striving to improve, but I know I’ll never pick up a piccolo trumpet and play a nice Penny Lane. Low brass is my comfort zone, especially euph. Recently attended an Army band performance, same band my Dad played in. Conclusion, trumpets definitely above my pay grade, (I don’t have a need to play in the Maynard Ferguson range, so I don’t spend a lot of practice time up there) trombone maybe 50 years ago I could have moved my arm that fast, French horn isn’t an instrument, it’s a torture device, my euph, yeah, I could cover those parts.

Good news was I did well, well trained French horn/piano playing daughter said “Trumpets sounded good!” Maybe all her years of piano and horn lessons rubbed off some on me.

[MStarke]

I had huge issues with my nerves when I was younger which also correlates with overall always having very high expectations towards myself. This has become much better over time.

Also I have seen really good professional players (e g permanent positions in pro orchestras) losing control in specifically stressful situations. there is a legendary Bolero recording still floating around with quite a story behind it. imagine you were in that situation...

I have noticed that growing up and overall maturing helped and developing really strong and reliable fundamentals reduced dependency on "having a good day". Also around 20 years ago I worked around a bad mix of probably being close to focal dystonia and an embouchure change driven by my teacher back then which retrospectively was not the right step.

I generally feel quite confident about my playing, but there are individual situations and sometimes people that can make me unconfortable also in a rehearsal.

[JTeagarden]

I think nerves come when you think you are being judged while you play, and its severity based on who you think is doing the judging.

So playing in a section in front of the general public as part of a free summer concert will be less nerve-wracking than playing an unaccompanied solo piece in front of the CSO low brass section.

[tromboneVan]

The more prepared you are, the less nervous you will likely be.

[JTeagarden]

The more prepared you are, the less nervous you will likely be.

Exactly. If I am prepared, I know exaclty when I'm going to cack it, it will be no surprise.

[LeTromboniste]

The reason I ask is that I'm on the other end of this stick. I'm a "pro" who plays in a number of community groups, and I've been dismayed to learn that people get "nervous" or "intimidated" playing with me. I don't understand that, and it's a gut punch. I'm always super supportive. Have never criticized anyone, publicly or even privately. I don't understand why people would be nervous around me. It makes me feel bad and unwelcome, like I shouldn't even be there. If you can explain what about your situation makes you nervous, maybe I could understand my own situation better.

Doesn't have to do with how you act with them. For many people playing with (or in front of) someone they look up to makes them nervous.

For me there's different kinds of nervousness. There's stage fright, related to performing in public (for me, that's limited to solo playing and very exposed and/or very high profile chamber playing). Then there's nervousness that's related to who I'm playing with, and that might manifest itself in rehearsals too, not necessarily performances. That can be a "positive" stress, or negative.

I have often felt something that is maybe akin to what your colleagues feel towards you, Dana. Playing with people I admire, usually who are not overly judgy and make me feel included and are encouraging. They have high standards but they care especially about music. It's a nervousness that comes from a good place, wanting to do well for them, to show them and myself that I belong and can play at that level. Although that nervousness can cause the same symptoms as any stress and therefore be detrimental, I realised at some point that if harnessed, it can also make me focus much better than usual and can lead me to elevate my playing. So to me now, I see it as a kind of "positive" nervousness. It tends to be at its highest in rehearsals, sometimes at its peak in the first rehearsal, and often gone by the time we perform. It also usually is there only the first few times I play with the particular person or group, and fades away on recurring engagements.

When it's a negative stress, it's usually tied to people who I also perceive as being above my level, who are in a position to give or withhold a lot of work, who express their high standards in a very strict way, with no tolerance for mistakes, people I know will notice the one or two mistakes I might make, and not the 45 minutes of excellent phrasing and supporting I did before and after, and with whom the smallest misstep might put me in the doghouse for the next 1-2 years and back at the end of the line. That nervousness doesn't go away, usually builds through the project and peaks during performance, even on a kind of gig where I would normally not have stage fright. And it'll be there everytime I play with them, ever. It's a negative nervousness that limits my best ability and actually increases the odds that I'll make the very mistakes I desperately want to avoid. (so please, everyone, don't be like this and make all your colleagues miserable...)

I used to be very self-conscious about being nervous (which naturally only made it worse), but then started noticing the very people I had been nervous about playing with or for, being themsleves just as nervous playing in front of other, yet older and revered people, who they admire (or fear). And then in turn seeing those older, great, sometimes legendary musicians being nervous about playing in front of the youngest players and feeling the pressure of showing they can still play at a high level. I had a couple of specific instances that really helped me dedramatize my nervousness where I remember vividly (and hopefully always will) the weight being lifted off my shoulders. So, I still get nervous, but I don't judge myself for it.

I'm sure this is common. I played with a wonderful trombone player who got so nervous she had to take beta blockers to manage her performance anxiety. While I hesitate to recommend the medication route, have you given that a try?

I believe that this has become quite commonplace now, and that physicians are quite willing to prescribe beta blockers in such cases.

Yes, more common than people admit. Not just musicians, but in all kinds of fields where the symptoms of performance anxiety, and especially trembling, can be a problem. Some doctors will be very judgemental and refuse to prescribe it (usually older doctors, with very little empathy), but even though its not what the medication was intended for, it's broadly accepted as a normal and legitimate use for it.

I know that a ton of people struggle with performance anxiety, and a ton of people use beta blockers, but there's still a lot of silence and stigma around all of it. I think it's important to de-stigmatize this, so I don't hide the fact that I do struggle with performance anxiety in certain contexts, and I do get prescribed beta-blockers myself for use in these situations.

[ghmerrill]

Some doctors will be very judgemental and refuse to prescribe it (usually older doctors, with very little empathy), but even though its not what the medication was intended for, it's broadly accepted as a normal and legitimate use for it.

To be fair, it's a big part of a physician's job to be judgmental about the medications they prescribe -- and in addition to that direct professional and moral responsibility, they may need to be wary of how a review or licensing board may view their decisions. And they need to be concerned about the possibility of a particular patient "abusing" (read "over-using" if you prefer) any drug. So it may not be a matter of empathy if one is reluctant to prescribe a beta blocker for performance anxiety -- though I do take your point and don't really disagree with it. But I don't think I'd use the phrase "broadly accepted as a normal and legitimate use" without some qualification.

Beta blockers can have some unpleasant/dangerous "side-effects", and there are comorbidity and drug/drug interactions that need to be carefully considered. The current guidelines and "best practice" for using beta blockers to treat "situational performance anxiety" are actually fairly tight (at least in the US -- I'm not generally familiar with other areas). Details of the specific case must be carefully considered, for any treatment, but particularly for any "off-label" use. And off-label use of drugs by physicians is really quite common (and justified for several reasons). But I definitely have seen cases where a quite reasonable and common off-label use of a drug has been shunned by a doctor, not related to the doctor's age but out of some anxiety (real or imagined) about justifying the prescription -- within whatever "system" that physician is a part of -- if that became necessary. Often that problem can be solved by consulting different physicians (and I don't mean this in any derogatory "doctor shopping" sense).

[LeTromboniste]

Some doctors will be very judgemental and refuse to prescribe it (usually older doctors, with very little empathy), but even though its not what the medication was intended for, it's broadly accepted as a normal and legitimate use for it.

To be fair, it's a big part of a physician's job to be judgmental about the medications they prescribe -- and in addition to that direct professional and moral responsibility, they may need to be wary of how a review or licensing board may view their decisions. And they need to be concerned about the possibility of a particular patient "abusing" (read "over-using" if you prefer) any drug. So it may not be a matter of empathy if one is reluctant to prescribe a beta blocker for performance anxiety -- though I do take your point and don't really disagree with it. But I don't think I'd use the phrase "broadly accepted as a normal and legitimate use" without some qualification.

Beta blockers can have some unpleasant/dangerous "side-effects", and there are comorbidity and drug/drug interactions that need to be carefully considered. The current guidelines and "best practice" for using beta blockers to treat "situational performance anxiety" are actually fairly tight (at least in the US -- I'm not generally familiar with other areas). Details of the specific case must be carefully considered, for any treatment, but particularly for any "off-label" use. And off-label use of drugs by physicians is really quite common (and justified for several reasons). But I definitely have seen cases where a quite reasonable and common off-label use of a drug has been shunned by a doctor, not related to the doctor's age but out of some anxiety (real or imagined) about justifying the prescription -- within whatever "system" that physician is a part of -- if that became necessary. Often that problem can be solved by consulting different physicians (and I don't mean this in any derogatory "doctor shopping" sense).

Yes, that's what I mean by broadly accepted. There are actual guidelines that allow prescribing these particular drugs for this particular condition, and frame how and when it should or should not be prescribed. And is done routinely.

Yes, there are comorbidities and interactions, some that can actually be dangerous. Which is all the more reason for de-stigmatizing it, so that people actually consult for it and make the decision for their specific case with their doctor, and not self-medicate, which is unfortunately not uncommon with this.

I understand your point about doctors needing to be cautious, and examine other underlying conditions and considering the specific case. I'm not at all suggesting that doctors should (or do) just prescribe this lightly just because they're asked. I rightly had to discuss it, answer questions and undergo some tests (EKG, notably). What I meant by having heard about doctors judging colleagues for asking about it were not about caution, they were doctors just plainly refusing to discuss it and dismissing the concern saying things like "performance anxiety is not a medical condition" and "if you struggle, just go to therapy or change careers".

I should maybe amend "older doctors" to "more old-school doctors", because you're right, it doesn't have to do with age. But there has certainly been a general shift to a more humanistic (and holistic) approach to medicine in the last couple decades of training doctors.

[ghmerrill]

humanistic (and holistic)

These words in a medical context always set off alarm bells for me. But there is a range of meanings available for them -- some of which are reasonable and not anti-science (despite the history) and which don't trigger my jargon allergy. I would rather think of the improvements to the understanding and practice of medicine as more science-driven with a focus on "personalized medicine" (perhaps just another bit of jargon to express something in a short-hand way) by better trained and perhaps less doctrinaire practitioners. I just have a somewhat lengthy history of dealing with approaches involving "humanism" and "holism", as these terms have traditionally been wielded. But that's a different discussion with myriad complexities, irrelevant to the current one, and best avoided here.

[tbdana]

The reason I ask is that I'm on the other end of this stick. I'm a "pro" who plays in a number of community groups, and I've been dismayed to learn that people get "nervous" or "intimidated" playing with me. I don't understand that, and it's a gut punch. I'm always super supportive. Have never criticized anyone, publicly or even privately. I don't understand why people would be nervous around me. It makes me feel bad and unwelcome, like I shouldn't even be there. If you can explain what about your situation makes you nervous, maybe I could understand my own situation better.

Doesn't have to do with how you act with them. For many people playing with (or in front of) someone they look up to makes them nervous.

For me there's different kinds of nervousness. There's stage fright, related to performing in public (for me, that's limited to solo playing and very exposed and/or very high profile chamber playing). Then there's nervousness that's related to who I'm playing with, and that might manifest itself in rehearsals too, not necessarily performances. That can be a "positive" stress, or negative.

I have often felt something that is maybe akin to what your colleagues feel towards you, Dana. Playing with people I admire, usually who are not overly judgy and make me feel included and are encouraging. They have high standards but they care especially about music. It's a nervousness that comes from a good place, wanting to do well for them, to show them and myself that I belong and can play at that level. Although that nervousness can cause the same symptoms as any stress and therefore be detrimental, I realised at some point that if harnessed, it can also make me focus much better than usual and can lead me to elevate my playing. So to me now, I see it as a kind of "positive" nervousness. It tends to be at its highest in rehearsals, sometimes at its peak in the first rehearsal, and often gone by the time we perform. It also usually is there only the first few times I play with the particular person or group, and fades away on recurring engagements.

When it's a negative stress, it's usually tied to people who I also perceive as being above my level, who are in a position to give or withhold a lot of work, who express their high standards in a very strict way, with no tolerance for mistakes, people I know will notice the one or two mistakes I might make, and not the 45 minutes of excellent phrasing and supporting I did before and after, and with whom the smallest misstep might put me in the doghouse for the next 1-2 years and back at the end of the line. That nervousness doesn't go away, usually builds through the project and peaks during performance, even on a kind of gig where I would normally not have stage fright. And it'll be there everytime I play with them, ever. It's a negative nervousness that limits my best ability and actually increases the odds that I'll make the very mistakes I desperately want to avoid. (so please, everyone, don't be like this and make all your colleagues miserable...)

I used to be very self-conscious about being nervous (which naturally only made it worse), but then started noticing the very people I had been nervous about playing with or for, being themsleves just as nervous playing in front of other, yet older and revered people, who they admire (or fear). And then in turn seeing those older, great, sometimes legendary musicians being nervous about playing in front of the youngest players and feeling the pressure of showing they can still play at a high level. I had a couple of specific instances that really helped me dedramatize my nervousness where I remember vividly (and hopefully always will) the weight being lifted off my shoulders. So, I still get nervous, but I don't judge myself for it.

Those are great ways to view and separate different reasons for nervousness. Very compelling.

I'm very fortunate, I guess. I'm a naturally shy person who fears others' negative judgment, but for some reason I have absolutely zero performance anxiety. Lucky me! Lucky mud that sat up! I would hate to suffer from that anxiety. I know it can be debilitating and self-defeating if not managed well. I feel fortunate; just lucky that the anxiety demon skipped my house.

I come to performing or playing with others no matter their level with the following ethics:

1. No one ever had a great performance by being cautious. So always go for it.

2. Don't be afraid to take risks, but don't take stupid risks. Be smart about it.

3. Be willing to crash and burn. Only those who dare to go too far can ever know how far they can go. And everyone crashes and burns, even the GOATs.

4. Music ceases to exist the moment the ring in the hall fades. So should our judgment of ourselves. It's all temporary. All our victories, all our defeats, all our incredible solos and all our disastrous clams are gone the instant they are played. So every failure is immediately in the past and is nothing to fear.

5. I may be a terrible trombone player, but I'm amazing at being me. There will always be people who do things on the horn better than I can. I will always have areas of weakness. But everyone has weaknesses, and we don't judge others on those things, we judge them on what they can do. And no one else can do what I do better than me. I'm the best me in the world. So I have nothing to fear if I just focus on being me.

Some people get up for the big game and thrive in crunch time, and others fade when the chips are down. I decided a long time ago that I wanted to be the former.

As for being intimidated by playing with my betters, I got over that a long time ago. I was never one of the greats, but I was lucky enough to play with the all-time greats when I had no business being there. (I'll never forget the night I showed up to Donte's jazz club in L.A., and discovered that the other trombonists on the gig were Dick Nash, Carl Fontana, Frank Rosolino and Phil Teele.) I was often thrown into the fire in circumstances where I couldn't afford to fail. I found peace and a center by not pretending to be on par with my betters, and decided that my job was not to be as good as them, but to hold down the mundane playing while serving as witness to greatness. And boy have I been privileged and honored in that latter regard.

[Kbiggs]

It’s common and, I think, natural for some people to be nervous in front of others whose playing we admire. I care about my playing, and I want other people to be pleased with or enjoy my playing, or at the very least not be bothered by it. When I play with someone who is “better” or “more advanced,” I tend to be more judgmental of my performance which, ironically, often leads to a worse performance.

The attitude we have towards our playing and ourselves is important here, like Dana and Maximillien have written. When I adopt a helpful attitude that says something like, “I’m here, and I have something to contribute. I enjoy what I do. While I hope you enjoy my playing, too, I can’t do anything about it if you don’t,” I’m able to enjoy myself more. Yes, I care about my playing, and simultaneously I have to be compassionate towards myself.

I have used beta blockers in the past. This was 30 to 40 years ago, so doctors and rules for prescribing have changed. In college, I used to suffer from severe performance anxiety when playing solos—shaking, shallow breathing, the whole fight-flight-freeze response. In ensembles it was manageable. I talked with my doctor, got a short course of beta blockers, used them in rehearsal to gauge the effect, then used them in performance. A few good experiences was very helpful. A similar thing happened about 10 years after that initial bout, and another short course of beta blockers helped.

Since then, I’ve worked on my approach to playing. Meditation, when I’ve practiced it, has probably been the most most helpful. I tend to be less judgmental of others and myself, but I can still get really disappointed in my own performances—afterwards. In the moment, though, I do my best to turn the judgmental portion of my thinking way down, and turn up the here-and-now portion that lives in the moment.

[tbdana]

I have this narrative that helped me. I don't know if it will help anyone else, but here it is:

Our unconscious mind can save us or doom us. We have a conscious mind, a subconscious mind, and an unconscious mind. The conscious mind makes all the decisions and gives all the commands. The unconscious mind controls the muscles, and it's job is to put those commands into action.

The unconscious mind is like a guy in a windowless room sitting at a panel with buttons and levers that control all the muscles in the body. He has a big flat screen in front of him. On the screen he'll see the thoughts of the conscious mind, and his one and only job is to make the muscles do what the conscious mind projects onto the screen in front of him.

The unconscious mind doesn't judge or evaluate, it just follows instructions and tries to make the messages from the conscious mind come true. If the conscious mind sends messages of success, the unconscious mind makes those come true. If the conscious mind sends messages of failure, well, the unconscious mind will uncritically try to make that come true, too.

This is why we, as humans, can lay a 2x4 on the ground and walk its length back and forth all day long without falling off, but if we suspend it between two tall buildings we're certain to plunge to our death. When the board is on the ground, the conscious mind sends confident images of success; of dancing across the board, running across it, spinning or whatever. But suspend it high in the air and all the conscious mind can think of is, "What if I fall?"

The unconscious mind, sitting in his control room, sees these fear images of falling on his screen. And he dutifully pulls all the levers and pushes all the buttons to cause the human to fall, just as instructed by the conscious mind.

So always think thoughts of success, never failure.

This way of thinking inspires me to use positive self-talk and mental imaging, and avoid any hint of negativity or fear. And it works. For me, anyway.

[LeTromboniste]

I have this narrative that helped me. I don't know if it will help anyone else, but here it is:

Our unconscious mind can save us or doom us. We have a conscious mind, a subconscious mind, and an unconscious mind. The conscious mind makes all the decisions and gives all the commands. The unconscious mind controls the muscles, and it's job is to put those commands into action.

The unconscious mind is like a guy in a windowless room sitting at a panel with buttons and levers that control all the muscles in the body. He has a big flat screen in front of him. On the screen he'll see the thoughts of the conscious mind, and his one and only job is to make the muscles do what the conscious mind projects onto the screen in front of him.

The unconscious mind doesn't judge or evaluate, it just follows instructions and tries to make the messages from the conscious mind come true. If the conscious mind sends messages of success, the unconscious mind makes those come true. If the conscious mind sends messages of failure, well, the unconscious mind will uncritically try to make that come true, too.

This is why we, as humans, can lay a 2x4 on the ground and walk its length back and forth all day long without falling off, but if we suspend it between two tall buildings we're certain to plunge to our death. When the board is on the ground, the conscious mind sends confident images of success; of dancing across the board, running across it, spinning or whatever. But suspend it high in the air and all the conscious mind can think of is, "What if I fall?"

The unconscious mind, sitting in his control room, sees these fear images of falling on his screen. And he dutifully pulls all the levers and pushes all the buttons to cause the human to fall, just as instructed by the conscious mind.

So always think thoughts of success, never failure.

This way of thinking inspires me to use positive self-talk and mental imaging, and avoid any hint of negativity or fear. And it works. For me, anyway.

100% this! I think that's what makes much of that difference between my "positive" and "negative" stress with regards to playing with others. Most people leave me neutral, and then I'll mostly play at my average. Some people I really, really want to play well for, and I usually tend to manage to somehow play better than my average. Some people I really, really don't want to play bad for, and the result is it's more difficult and takes more work just to play at my average level. Could tie this in with your thread about the dos and don'ts for sidemen and leaders. If you're a leader, try to be the kind of leader that people want to play well for, not the kind people are afraid to play bad for.

[BrassSection]

One thing that will reduce nerves the next time for me is the success I had the last time. After playing trombone close to an hour before picking up the trumpet, first note on trumpet was spot on. By the 3rd measure I started relaxing and just played, but also keeping an ear on the other trumpet to,make sure we were in sync. When we were done he told me there was no reason to be nervous. I’ll update after August.

[harrisonreed]

I use and am prescribed Propranolol, a beta blocker, for when I have a trombone concerto or feature solo with a big band. This is a drug that (off-label, by regulating the heart rate) counters the subconscious biological fight or flight response that your conscious brain has no control over (unless you're a Bene Gesserit). The usual dose for on-label use, to control blood pressure and heart rhythm, is around 100-240mg a day. For off-label anxiety doctors usually recommend 15mg or less, 30 minutes before the performance (just that, not daily). Far far less than the usual safe dose. There should be about as much stigma about using it as there is about using Pepto Bismol when your insides are turned inside out. They actually accomplish almost the same end state.

*I am not a doctor. Talk to a doctor for facts, as opposed to my anecdotes, about these things. Get an actual prescription*

Being and to walk on stage and just focus on the music I want to convey, rather than focusing on my dry mouth, shaky hands, and my stomach trying to empty all of its contents so I can flee a tiger faster (the body doesn't know the difference between an audience or a tiger), is amazing. I see no difference between taking a medicine to counter these effects so that the audience gets the best version of the performance they took the time and money out to see, and a surgeon taking it to keep their hands and heart steady so they can do the best job they can do in the operating room. The stakes are just different.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10360293/

[ghmerrill]

There should be about as much stigma about using it as there is about using Pepto Bismol when your insides are turned inside out.

... which also is fairly easy to abuse if not taken as directed, and can really mess you up! Similarly, Tylenol (liver damage in pretty short order -- e.g., 24 hours -- if you over-indulge). Etc. The beta blocker, appropriately prescribed and taken, is certainly better -- in terms of potential side effects -- than the traditional approach of a couple of slugs of Bushmill's (or whatever your favorite is) prior to performance -- and won't have some of the detrimental effects of that traditional "OTC" approach.

[harrisonreed]

I don't think I could have made that point any clearer in my post. I am not advocating abusing Pepto Bismol or beta blockers.

[ghmerrill]

I don't think I could have made that point any clearer in my post. I am not advocating abusing Pepto Bismol or beta blockers.

I wasn't suggesting you were ... just basically backing you up on comparable dangers of common OTC products.

[harrisonreed]

I don't think I could have made that point any clearer in my post. I am not advocating abusing Pepto Bismol or beta blockers.

I wasn't suggesting you were ... just basically backing you up on comparable dangers of common OTC products.

Agreed!

[tbdana]

I'm blessed to not be a nervous player, but if I were I still might be reluctant to use beta blockers. Not because of any stigma, but because it's a crutch. The nervous condition is still there. It's just masked by the drugs, and will come back next time when I might not have any beta blockers to take. But that's just me.

One thing I was wondering is if frequency is related to nervousness. I spent many years on the road, gigging every night. I spent many years in L.A. playing a wide variety of gigs very often before audience of 12 to 12 million. My suspicion is that if you perform with that kind of frequency it's hard to be nervous because performing isn't an event, it's just normal life.

Perhaps the solution to nervousness is to make it a point play more often in situations we're not completely comfortable in, so that it becomes mundane?

[Kbiggs]

I’m sure there are players who use beta blockers all the time, like a crutch. Perhaps they’re just really nervous and need to have a few good performing experiences to help them overcome the worst aspects and symptoms of performance anxiety. (That was me.) Perhaps they’re haven’t spent the time to address their anxiety and/or nervousness so they can work towards playing with relying on beta blockers. Perhaps they’re not aware of their dependence on them, or maybe they’re are but don’t really care. Perhaps…

I don’t think that people who use beta blockers when performing are any less as musicians. Some people (Harrison, for example) use them so they can perform, period. Can you tell the difference between a musician who uses them and one who doesn’t?

[harrisonreed]

Perhaps the solution to nervousness is to make it a point play more often in situations we're not completely comfortable in, so that it becomes mundane?

My issue is that it is not easy to frequently have opportunities to play trombone concertos with orchestras, so I would say that it's easier said than done. I'm not needing beta blockers to sit in a section, because, like you say, that happens frequently.

This is ignoring the fact that I play better even in the practice room with beta blockers... So there's that too.

[tbdana]

Perhaps the solution to nervousness is to make it a point play more often in situations we're not completely comfortable in, so that it becomes mundane?

My issue is that it is not easy to frequently have opportunities to play trombone concertos with orchestras, so I would say that it's easier said than done. I'm not needing beta blockers to sit in a section, because, like you say, that happens frequently.

Hey, I'm just the big picture person. I don't have time to solve all your little problems. Maybe you should just hire an orchestra. I'm like the Steve Martin kind of problem solver, like when he said, "You can be a millionaire and never pay taxes! Yes, you can be a millionaire, and never pay taxes! Two easy steps. First, get a million dollars..." Yeah, that's my problem solving technique.

[BrassSection]

Perhaps the solution to nervousness is to make it a point play more often in situations we're not completely comfortable in, so that it becomes mundane?

My problem is finding pro level players to play with in my usual settings. Used to have a pro sax player as part of the team. Worked well with brass and sax, having him there made me a better player. Now it’s easier to put together an ensemble, where it’s myself, pro tuba player, highly trained French horn playing daughter, and the rest former band players who haven’t touched their horn since school was over. Some regain quickly and do well, others, it’s “well, I tried…”. No sweat playing there. Low brass quartet I’d do 8 days a week. Solo or duet just isn’t my bag. Measure or two here and there ok in a song, but down to one or two for a full piece and some nerves kick in reguardless of other persons talent level. Me plus pro not my favorite, but it does help me in the long run being a better player. Always learning.

[tbdana]

I just want to make the observation that there is nothing special about pro players. Pros struggle with all the same stuff amateurs do, they've just made a job of it so they've devoted more time to it. Sure they play well. They'd better play well, it's their job. But at the end of the day we all play different but we all go through the same exercises, struggles, triumphs, challenges, frustrations, etc.

It occurs to me that when I had a plumber over after trying unsuccessfully to fix the problem, I didn't get nervous and I didn't care what he thought of my plumbing abilities. So why should it be different with trombone? Not sure the point I'm trying to make, but that came into what passes for my brain.

Don't deify pros. They're just idiots who weren't smart enough to learn to do something useful for a living.

[GGJazz]

Hi folks.

In my opinion , being nervous at playing is a problem that begins and develops in the practice room.
If one is not practicing good exercises / routines in a correct way , not developing good habits , not playing with correct mechanisms , etc , he will not establish an "healty" relationship with the horn .

So , one can even manage bad habits in a practice room , but at the live performance time , having not a good preparation , the nervous and the fear will overcome him.

In addition , I think that when we have to play live performances , before the show starts , our body and our mind are doing some "inner changes" , to be ready for the gig . Some people feel these sensations as a negative thing , and that will lead to anxiety and nervous .
These changes are not negative sensations ; they are positive . They means that something very important for us is coming : playing our instrument to perform live music!

I am not nervous at all while playing live . More , I can say that I usually perform at 98% of my general ability , in every context .
But , when I was between 14 and 15 years old , I was "consumed" by anxiety at playing .I totally overcome that issue when ( at 15) I started studying with a really good teacher , that gave me the right things to practice .

Regards
Giancarlo

[LeTromboniste]

Responding to the few last comments I really need to say this. This idea that one can just wish it away, or work hard and get rid of it, or stop being anxious because of habit, or that if someone is anxious, it's because they don't practice right, is precisely why there is still stigma.

Yes there are things one can do to manage anxiety better, and one should do them whether they're taking beta blockers, because the beta blockers don't actually remove the mental/emotional portion of anxiety, they only help with the physical symptoms. But there are an infinite number of factors at play here, and any number of reasons why someone has anxiety in the first place, usually any number of past traumas on top of a natural fogbtyor flight response that is differently triggered in each person. So not everyone's anxiety can be dealt with the same way. For many people yes there are strategies that help, but it'll always be there no matter what.

Also, is it a crutch to carry acidity/reflux tablets in case one has acid reflux instead of learning to get to know in advance how your body might react on any given day to any given food (is that a realistic approach for most people)? Is it a crutch to use nausea suppressants instead of learning how not to be nauseous on a boat or train or car (how would one do that? Also is that realistic?)? More on point, is it a crutch for someone struggling with depression to take anti-depressants?

[GGJazz]

Hi again .

@Maximilien.
I think are you missing a point. Here we are not talking about people WITH anxiety all time , but about people that get nervous in some particolar situation only , as playing occasionally with a Pro ( being himself an amateur) , or playing a particolar challenging piece( as a solo ) .

Of course , people having depression , they have to take anti- depressant ; people with anxiety , they will take anxiolytics . How this is can be related with occasionally nervous before playing ?

Nothing wrong taking beta blockers if they work for this situation , however .

Regards
Giancarlo

[LeTromboniste]

Hi again .

@Maximilien.
I think are you missing a point. Here we are not talking about people WITH anxiety all time , but about people that get nervous in some particolar situation only , as playing occasionally with a Pro ( being himself an amateur) , or playing a particolar challenging piece( as a solo ) .

Of course , people having depression , they have to take anti- depressant ; people with anxiety , they will take anxiolytics . How this is can be related with occasionally nervous before playing ?

Nothing wrong taking beta blockers if they work for this situation , however .

Regards
Giancarlo

Thanks but I do get the point, seeing as I deal with these issues myself.

My point is precisely that performance anxiety is complex and it can be connected to any number of things in one's psyche. Because someone only really feels the anxiety in certain situations doesn't mean its not anxiety.

That your anxiety was in your opinion a result of bad practice habits when you were a teenager is not indicative that everyone's performance anxiety is caused by that or can be solved in the same way. Good for you that you got rid of yours, but your experience is yours only, and can't be extrapolated to everyone else. For some the cause could be completely different. For some, it might never be solved and they have to constantly manage it their whole life. For others it might manifest itself too irregularly and in ways that are too unpredictable to ever figure out what might help them manage it. Point is that the mind is a really complex thing, and blanket statements about causes of and solutions for anxiety are rarely helpful. More often than not they tend to actually fuel anxiety, by setting a norm and expectations, and more self-hatred when one inevitably fails to meet them.

[tbdana]

Max, I don't think any of those other methods of dealing with performance panic are fostering or promoting a stigma for beta blockers. And absolutely no one has condemned anyone for using them. In fact, I'm the one who brought them up as a suggestion to try in the first place. While there may be stigma out there, it's not happening in here. I'm seeing nothing but a whole good faith smorgasbord of support with a host of suggestions to try. Folks here are trying to help, not condemn.

[GGJazz]

Ho again.

@Maximilien : forgive me , but I think that you do not get the point at all . First , I do not say at all that my experience Is THE universal solution for everyone . Anyway , considering what OP wrote , I think that in HIS case ,could be an issue coming from weak preparation .So I spoke about my experience . Anyway , I have seen many players overcoming their nervous problems thanks to a better playing skill.

You think you are THE only one having knowledges about this kind of issues because you are dealing with ? I am an against-stigma from maybe 35 years , being that I had some dear persons very close to me having had these issues . Anxiety , depression , and bipolar depression . I convinced them to seek for treatments , being that at the beginning they were refusing It .

So , when you talk about stigma , you just judge everything and then you give your "sentence" , thinking to be the only one always right . We all know that this Is a very complex topic.

As Tbdana wrote above , we are just trying to help . This is a public chat , not a court ..

Regards
Giancarlo

[LeTromboniste]

Clearly we're just talking past each other now and both not understanding what the other is saying. I'm probably expressing myself very poorly as I'm clearly coming across very differently than I mean to. And clearly I don't understand you right.

I'm just going to clarify that I don't bean to condemn anyone. I just wanted to express that even when we mean well and intend to be supportive, sometimes the way we discuss these issues reflects a certain stigma. And I most certainly don't believe I'm the only one with knowledge of this kind of issues. I really don't know how you could understand that from my posts since I wrote exactly the opposite, that we should be careful about blanket statements because there is a huge variety of experiences of this that are all valid.

I'm going to leave this conversation now, since I anyway "don't get the point at all".