Why have bass trombones gotten to be so big and heavy and ugly ?

[WGWTR180]

Contras have always been big and heavy. The double slide version was nuts. Hand supports for Contras are necessary for sure!

[tbonesullivan]

Contras have always been big and heavy. The double slide version was nuts. Hand supports for Contras are necessary for sure!

They still are nuts, and for some reason the BBb and CC contras from Miraphone always get looked down on, yet I see them in plenty of large trombone groups. It seems like tuba players being asked to play Contra find the BBb and CC contrabass trombones more acceptable than people coming from the trombone side of things.

I used to be tempted by the BBb as a "just to have" thing, but after my failure at BBb tuba and not being able to make any kind of real sound, I think an F contra would work better.

[ghmerrill]

I used to be tempted by the BBb as a "just to have" thing, but after my failure at BBb tuba and not being able to make any kind of real sound, I think an F contra would work better.

I'm more inclined towards cimbasso, but (based on my fairly lengthy experience with tuba) feel that the Eb version is the most versatile among the usual choices -- though there's probably not a genuinely objective argument to be made about that.

[MahlerMusic]

Thankfully the Getzen Eterna is one of the most balanced horns I've played, and it's fairly light.

I really like my Getzen, and as I've got it set up, it's a pleasure to play, however ...

My Getzen is a dream to hold vs my Minick. The Minick to the tuning slide is smaller as it is a straight 0.562 bore vs dual, and the Minick has (I think) Bach Valves.

20240322_160737.jpg

[AtomicClock]

Speaking of big, ugly, and heavy ... doesn't the OP play contrabass trombone as well?!

Once contrabass trombones started penetrating the market, grip aids became pretty mandatory. And once they are designed for the contras, it's a small matter to make them available to basses (and tenors!). If they make the horn more comfortable, why not!

[blast]

Yes, I play contra. I'll be playing contra this fall. I always use an ergobone. It's a different matter. I was talking about the bass trombone.
It seems most people here deny the bass of some makers is heavy.
So, it's not big, or ugly, or heavy. Well that's cleared that up then.

[BPBasso]

Yes, I play contra. I'll be playing contra this fall. I always use an ergobone. It's a different matter. I was talking about the bass trombone.
It seems most people here deny the bass of some makers is heavy.
So, it's not big, or ugly, or heavy. Well that's cleared that up then.

To be honest, based on your responses throughout the thread I assumed you made this thread out of jest. I personally can't tell when/if you're being serious from this side of the screen. I'm not rereading the entire thread, but I don't recall anyone denying that some makes/models are heavier than others.

brassmedic asked you which makes/models you thought were heavy. You didn't reply.

You've mentioned your Conn Fuchs and Rath R8 bass trombones, so I can only assume these are your only bass trombones. From my limited knowledge, these are both single valve bass trombones. Based on your comments, you seem quite happy about the sound and appearance of your current bass trombones.

Do you own a double valve bass trombone? Why are you trying out newer bass trombones? Do you like how the modern, heavy bass trombones sound and play?

[WGWTR180]

Yes, I play contra. I'll be playing contra this fall. I always use an ergobone. It's a different matter. I was talking about the bass trombone.
It seems most people here deny the bass of some makers is heavy.
So, it's not big, or ugly, or heavy. Well that's cleared that up then.

To be honest, based on your responses throughout the thread I assumed you made this thread out of jest. I personally can't tell when/if you're being serious from this side of the screen. I'm not rereading the entire thread, but I don't recall anyone denying that some makes/models are heavier than others.

brassmedic asked you which makes/models you thought were heavy. You didn't reply.

You've mentioned your Conn Fuchs and Rath R8 bass trombones, so I can only assume these are your only bass trombones. From my limited knowledge, these are both single valve bass trombones. Based on your comments, you seem quite happy about the sound and appearance of your current bass trombones.

Do you own a double valve bass trombone? Why are you trying out newer bass trombones? Do you like how the modern, heavy bass trombones sound and play?

There’s very little you know about Blast. I wouldn’t assume anything on your end.

[BPBasso]

There’s very little you know about Blast. I wouldn’t assume anything on your end.

It's fun to assume though. It offends people!

[WGWTR180]

There’s very little you know about Blast. I wouldn’t assume anything on your end.

It's fun to assume though. It offends people!

You assume too much.

[BPBasso]

You assume too much.

I suppose we'll ruminate in vague opinions then.

[Burgerbob]

Seems like another one of these.

[WGWTR180]

Seems like another one of these.

Old man? Care to explain?

[Burgerbob]

It's a meme. And one I think aptly describes the situation in a few ways.

It's been gone over several times that basses are lighter than they were 30-40 years ago in the heavy trend.

It's also been noted that few instruments in the orchestra have developed and changed more in the last 100 years than bass trombone.

And then there's the "back in my day we didn't need seatbelts!" sentiment about grip aids on bass trombone. It's all been said several times.

[RustBeltBass]

To be honest, based on your responses throughout the thread I assumed you made this thread out of jest. I personally can't tell when/if you're being serious from this side of the screen. I'm not rereading the entire thread, but I don't recall anyone denying that some makes/models are heavier than others.

brassmedic asked you which makes/models you thought were heavy. You didn't reply.

You've mentioned your Conn Fuchs and Rath R8 bass trombones, so I can only assume these are your only bass trombones. From my limited knowledge, these are both single valve bass trombones. Based on your comments, you seem quite happy about the sound and appearance of your current bass trombones.

Do you own a double valve bass trombone? Why are you trying out newer bass trombones? Do you like how the modern, heavy bass trombones sound and play?

I am not sure how familiar or not you are with "blast". He is very respected professional bass trombonist in the UK and probably owns quite a few more horns than the ones he mentioned here.

That being said, I think your questions are valid and I am also curious what made him post exactly the way he did and if he is currently trying different horns that make him feel this way and what models he may be refering to in particular ? I realize he wanted to "stir the pot" a bit by phrasing things the way he did to spark a debate. I do not think stirring the pot was neccessary for that.

More thoughts on his original question: I think horns have gotten bigger and heavier (but certainly not uglier in my personal opinion) through the impact of very influential orchestral players who chose equipment based on their individual needs and wants for their specific playing situation. Through their playing and their teaching they happened to set a trend and standard that many others have tried to emulate for decades. And part of that (the easiest part) is playing similar equipment.

[BPBasso]

I am not sure how familiar or not you are with "blast". He is very respected professional bass trombonist in the UK and probably owns quite a few more horns than the ones he mentioned here.

That being said, I think your questions are valid and I am also curious what made him post exactly the way he did and if he is currently trying different horns that make him feel this way and what models he may be refering to in particular ?

If it's the same blast from TTF, I'm familiar with their career and accomplishments, though I don't know them on a personal level. I recall blast, sabutin, and a few others stirring pots from time to time back in the TTF days. I hope we're all allowed to poke fun and speak freely here.

I genuinely want to hear Chris's opinions in more detail, if they're willing to indulge. I've seen them comment only needing a single valve bass for the majority of their work. Seeing that they play an R8, do they find an R900 to be too heavy? Raths are gorgeous horns, and a former teacher of mine plays on Rath horns.

I'm a mere amateur picking up where I left off, hoping to play in an orchestra again some day. I personally have no big issues with my heavy horn. It plays great and makes a great sound. After a 15 year break from playing, I could see the appeal in a lighter horn - less weight on the hand & arm, a different blow (less air?), shorter & lighter throw on the valves .. in theory less effort for a similar result.

[blast]

There’s very little you know about Blast. I wouldn’t assume anything on your end.

It's fun to assume though. It offends people!

I thought that most people would have guessed from the overblown title, that this was not overly serious. I'm not offended....I wanted to get reaction....this place has been a bit dull of late.

[blast]

It's a meme. And one I think aptly describes the situation in a few ways.

It's been gone over several times that basses are lighter than they were 30-40 years ago in the heavy trend.

It's also been noted that few instruments in the orchestra have developed and changed more in the last 100 years than bass trombone.

And then there's the "back in my day we didn't need seatbelts!" sentiment about grip aids on bass trombone. It's all been said several times.

Nah, you're just making fun of my age sonny. I can't help being old.... and you will, if you are lucky, get to be old too. As you live in the land of youth and beauty, age might not be welcome.
Now, the bit linking seatbelts and trombone straps is just plain stupid....I expected better from you. Seatbelts are an established safety measure that can save your life....one saved mine. Trombone straps help some people hold a trombone up....that's it.

[MStarke]

I have long not used any supports for my bass bones, but just recently changed my mind. Didn't really have any issues with my shoulders, arms or hands, but the straps freed finger movement in my left hand.

And also: A few days ago I played my Elkhart 62h (actually a Minick-style modified 60h) and my Greenhoe dependent TIS basses back to back. Both are great instruments. The Conn feels considerably lighter and also a bit more responsive, while it has a bit less substance and ease/consistency than the Greenhoe. So in this case: Yes, the newer trombone is bigger and heavier. I wouldn't say uglier though

[blast]

While I'm at it....rotors are generally (not all ) heavier than Thayers and Hagmanns...I have the Rotax and Hagmanns to prove it. Modern free-flow rotors with solid rod bracing equals heavy. I don't want to name brands, as that would constitute a personal attack....some of those horns blow very well indeed...not about blow, just about weight.
For the bean counters, I presently have two Rath doubles and Rath single...all parts interchangeable. A Conn double (tis) and four Conn singles. Also singles by Reynolds and Kanstul and enough bits to build a few more. Also three German trombones, two valve trombones and the contra.

[Burgerbob]

Nah, you're just making fun of my age sonny. I can't help being old.... and you will, if you are lucky, get to be old too. As you live in the land of youth and beauty, age might not be welcome.
Now, the bit linking seatbelts and trombone straps is just plain stupid....I expected better from you. Seatbelts are an established safety measure that can save your life....one saved mine. Trombone straps help some people hold a trombone up....that's it.

Not your age, just the attitude. Gatekeeping something that helps others, regardless of if it's for something "light" or "heavy" to you, is silly. I use a grip aid on a 60H or 50B just as much on a Greenhoe.

Yes, greenhoe and m&w trombones are heavier than some... But they also play great. Oh well. Lighter than others! My m&w is lighter than the Edwards and shires I have had with axials.

[Fridge]

Well, I agree with Chris. I’ve been playing double valve bass trbs for 50+ years. Never have needed or used a strap. Now, as a few people on here know, I’m a football player sized guy. I’ve never had any issues holding my horns up for hours at a time. My hands are ion the large size, so maybe that makes a difference for some people. I wouldn’t know. And I’m in my middle 60’s. If that makes a difference. My first horn was a Sterling Duo in the 11th grade. Really never had too many issues with the trigger configuration. First inline in 1981. Just my two cents. Hi Chris, glad you liked the videos!

Eddie Clark

[ghmerrill]

The practical benefit to me of this discussion is that I moved my counterweight. It works a bit better where it is now, but there will be some price to pay when I insert the ginormous cup mute. However, since I calculate that I use the cup mute on somewhere between 5% and 10% of the pieces I play, and often for brief passages, I think I'll just bite that bullet and live with it.

[BPBasso]

While I'm at it....rotors are generally (not all ) heavier than Thayers and Hagmanns...I have the Rotax and Hagmanns to prove it. Modern free-flow rotors with solid rod bracing equals heavy. I don't want to name brands, as that would constitute a personal attack....some of those horns blow very well indeed...not about blow, just about weight.

Interesting that many newer rotor horns are heavier than thayer/hagmann equivalents - visually I assumed the opposite.. I need to get out and try some of these new horns.

Do you think some of the makers are able and willing to attempt to lighten up their design per a customer's request .. extra $$$ though? What all made them decide to use a heavier design and materials in the first place ... Structure? Sound quality? Sound quantity? Years of tinkering and finding a "perfect" combination that people liked and started paying for regardless of final weight? Hopefully someone chimes in.

I haven't gone through all the makes, but the few I searched did not share weight specs of their equipment. I understand many come with multiple options which could change the end weight. Maybe this will change in the future.

[Posaunus]

... I presently have two Rath doubles and Rath single...all parts interchangeable. A Conn double (tis) and four Conn singles. Also singles by Reynolds and Kanstul and enough bits to build a few more. Also three German trombones, two valve trombones and the contra.

And a storage shed to house them all?

[blast]

... I presently have two Rath doubles and Rath single...all parts interchangeable. A Conn double (tis) and four Conn singles. Also singles by Reynolds and Kanstul and enough bits to build a few more. Also three German trombones, two valve trombones and the contra.

And a storage shed to house them all?

Basement

[blast]

While I'm at it....rotors are generally (not all ) heavier than Thayers and Hagmanns...I have the Rotax and Hagmanns to prove it. Modern free-flow rotors with solid rod bracing equals heavy. I don't want to name brands, as that would constitute a personal attack....some of those horns blow very well indeed...not about blow, just about weight.

Interesting that many newer rotor horns are heavier than thayer/hagmann equivalents - visually I assumed the opposite.. I need to get out and try some of these new horns.

Do you think some of the makers are able and willing to attempt to lighten up their design per a customer's request .. extra $$$ though? What all made them decide to use a heavier design and materials in the first place ... Structure? Sound quality? Sound quantity? Years of tinkering and finding a "perfect" combination that people liked and started paying for regardless of final weight? Hopefully someone chimes in.

I haven't gone through all the makes, but the few I searched did not share weight specs of their equipment. I understand many come with multiple options which could change the end weight. Maybe this will change in the future.

Traditional rotors are milled out of a solid bar of brass or nickel. They are moderately heavy, but quite small. Thayers and Hagmanns built up from sheet and are hollow, as are Kanstuls. Greenhoe and Shires are skeleton's, thus lighter. There is a lot of innovation out there.

[blast]

Nah, you're just making fun of my age sonny. I can't help being old.... and you will, if you are lucky, get to be old too. As you live in the land of youth and beauty, age might not be welcome.
Now, the bit linking seatbelts and trombone straps is just plain stupid....I expected better from you. Seatbelts are an established safety measure that can save your life....one saved mine. Trombone straps help some people hold a trombone up....that's it.

Not your age, just the attitude. Gatekeeping something that helps others, regardless of if it's for something "light" or "heavy" to you, is silly. I use a grip aid on a 60H or 50B just as much on a Greenhoe.

Yes, greenhoe and m&w trombones are heavier than some... But they also play great. Oh well. Lighter than others! My m&w is lighter than the Edwards and shires I have had with axials.

Funny, I thought I said that some of the heavier setups played very well......
You are a gatekeeper....sounds very noble, sorta 'lord of the rings'..... whilst I am the aged evil troll, directing people away from their salvation, except I have never suggested at any point, that it is wrong to use such things, if they help people. I simply suggest that they are a sign of unacceptable weight. Not sure what the gate is doing, but you look after it.

[Burgerbob]

What? I'm not directing people towards heavy horns.

I'm using this today- a 40 year old Yamaha with a 60 year old Bach bell on it. Not heavy at all... And I'm still using a strap.

[brassmedic]

What? I'm not directing people towards heavy horns.

I'm using this today- a 40 year old Yamaha with a 60 year old Bach bell on it. Not heavy at all... And I'm still using a strap.

Needs Thayers.

[brassmedic]

Do you think some of the makers are able and willing to attempt to lighten up their design per a customer's request .. extra $$$ though? What all made them decide to use a heavier design and materials in the first place ... Structure? Sound quality? Sound quantity? Years of tinkering and finding a "perfect" combination that people liked and started paying for regardless of final weight? Hopefully someone chimes in.

They didn't decide to use heavier design. Read the thread. Blast as much as admitted he's just trolling. I asked him specifically which recent model is heavier than which vintage model, and he refused to answer. I don't think he really believes bass trombones have gotten heavier; he's just trying to goad a reaction out of people. (Very successfully, I might add.)

[Finetales]

This thread makes no sense to me.

Heaviest trombone I've ever held (including contras) was my 1937 straight F bass trombone. My 1939 small bore B&H G bass was also heavy. Heaviest Bb bass trombone I've held is hard to say, but my 1972 Olds S24G was up there. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any modern bass I've tried (and I've tried just about everything) that I felt was noticeably heavy, especially compared to that Olds. I'm sure some of the heavy L bell/C attachment setups that were all the rage back in the day were very heavy, but that was 30+ years ago.

Worst ergonomics I've ever experienced were on that S24G. Close 2nd is the P22G I tried, and close 3rd is that B&H G bass. Next on the list (but a fair distance behind) would be stock Glantz Bar TR180, Duo Gravis, Elkhart 62H, 70H. Modern basses are in another dimension in terms of ergonomics. And I still use a strap, because I care about the health and longevity of my left hand.

Ugly? Well that's subjective of course, but I find modern instruments to be, in general, not as ugly in terms of wraps and bracing. The 50B2O or B3O is probably the ugliest trombone you can buy from the factory today, and that design is ancient at this point. Also, you can't deny how GORGEOUS double Hagmann basses are, especially dependents.

Biggest? That undoubtedly goes to the aforementioned bad old days with no leadpipe and heavy L bells and C attachments. And those days are thankfully very much over.

[BPBasso]

They didn't decide to use heavier design. Read the thread. Blast as much as admitted he's just trolling. I asked him specifically which recent model is heavier than which vintage model, and he refused to answer. I don't think he really believes bass trombones have gotten heavier; he's just trying to goad a reaction out of people. (Very successfully, I might add.)

Well... I still stand behind my questions. There might too many factors to narrow it down.

I enjoy the look of the horns with large decorative ferrules, and ones with large bracing. I also enjoy the look of some Rath and Thein horns with their minimalistic bracing.

We've had mouthpiece and slide weight threads. Time to pull out the scales and start weighing complete trombones now.

[WGWTR180]

They didn't decide to use heavier design. Read the thread. Blast as much as admitted he's just trolling. I asked him specifically which recent model is heavier than which vintage model, and he refused to answer. I don't think he really believes bass trombones have gotten heavier; he's just trying to goad a reaction out of people. (Very successfully, I might add.)

Well... I still stand behind my questions. There might too many factors to narrow it down.

I enjoy the look of the horns with large decorative ferrules, and ones with large bracing. I also enjoy the look of some Rath and Thein horns with their minimalistic bracing.

We've had mouthpiece and slide weight threads. Time to pull out the scales and start weighing complete trombones now.

One should focus more on weight placement and distribution and not just weighing the damn things on a scale. Not sure why this concept is just blown off.

[blast]

Do you think some of the makers are able and willing to attempt to lighten up their design per a customer's request .. extra $$$ though? What all made them decide to use a heavier design and materials in the first place ... Structure? Sound quality? Sound quantity? Years of tinkering and finding a "perfect" combination that people liked and started paying for regardless of final weight? Hopefully someone chimes in.

They didn't decide to use heavier design. Read the thread. Blast as much as admitted he's just trolling. I asked him specifically which recent model is heavier than which vintage model, and he refused to answer. I don't think he really believes bass trombones have gotten heavier; he's just trying to goad a reaction out of people. (Very successfully, I might add.)

Hey Brad, I didn't refuse to answer, I just didn't get specific because I don't want to attack individual makers. That wouldn't be fair. I will say that heavy bells are hard to deal with, as are dependent valves where the second valve sits a way away from the first and pulls the bell section in an anti- clockwise direction. I've gotten something out of this thread, even if no one else has. I did wonder why I was more comfortable with a double valve than a Bach 16....the constantly changing center of balance as the slide moves in and out is a far bigger deal on the Bach. The double sits on my shoulder and stays put. Thanks whoever pointed that out.

[Kbiggs]

There are ways to make bass trombones lighter: use less brass. Fewer braces, lighter brace material, lighter gauge for everything, hollow valve rotors, remove excess tubing from the crooks (Shires Curran model), etc.

There are ways to make them smaller: demand a smaller bell like 9”, and demand a smaller bore size like .551” or .557”.

There are ways to make them less ugly: Don’t look at them!

[ghmerrill]

There are ways to make bass trombones lighter: use less brass. Fewer braces, lighter brace material, lighter gauge for everything, hollow valve rotors, remove excess tubing from the crooks (Shires Curran model), etc.

Yeah, but then what? People will be complaining about their flimsiness and lack of durability. Repairs will be more frequent and repair costs will increase. Insurance rates will go up. You'll have to buy a heavier and more expensive case. You'll become paranoid about leaving your horn on its stand and you'll need expensive counselling to overcome that. So health insurance rates will rise as well. Trade-offs ... always trade-offs.

[hornbuilder]

There are ways to make bass trombones lighter: use less brass. Fewer braces, lighter brace material, lighter gauge for everything, hollow valve rotors, remove excess tubing from the crooks (Shires Curran model), etc.

You make it sound like stuff just gets thrown together with no consideration for how the final product plays. Surely the performance of the instrument should be the ultimate reason why "anything" is done during construction?

Speaking for my own designs, "everything" is done for a specific, thought out reason. Material choice, the weight of that individual component, how it interacts with everything else around it, and the function it serves, was decided after extensive play testing of multiple options. Even down to how thick the outer slide tubing should be on the valve section tuning slides. Nothing is done just for $hits and giggles. You change one aspect of one component, and you change the whole equation.

[Kbiggs]

There are ways to make bass trombones lighter: use less brass. Fewer braces, lighter brace material, lighter gauge for everything, hollow valve rotors, remove excess tubing from the crooks (Shires Curran model), etc.

You make it sound like stuff just gets thrown together with no consideration for how the final product plays. Surely the performance of the instrument should be the ultimate reason why "anything" is done during construction?

Speaking for my own designs, "everything" is done for a specific, thought out reason. Material choice, the weight of that individual component, how it interacts with everything else around it, and the function it serves, was decided after extensive play testing of multiple options. Even down to how thick the outer slide tubing should be on the valve section tuning slides. Nothing is done just for $hits and giggles. You change one aspect of one component, and you change the whole equation.

I apologize if that’s the impression I gave. I had hoped my comment was a simple observation: basses and other brass instruments can be made lighter, but there’s always a trade-off. Several people have commented here that everything makes a difference. A couple of threads have mentioned how removing the slide bumper on the end crook or the tightness of the water key screw can produce subtle changes.

Like you said, “You change one aspect of one component, and you change the whole equation.” I agree.

I appreciate the time, research, and craft that goes into bespoke and custom horns like M&W, Stephens, LI Brass, as well as the larger component-oriented makers like Edwards, Shires, Rath, and Greenhoe. Even the large conglomerates (Bach+Conn+King, Yamaha) have designs they’ve used for decades because they work. Aside from Rath, this list doesn’t even mention European makers, or the Chinese makers many of whose designs and manufacture are rapidly improving.