But how loud do you really have to play?

[tbdana]

Trombones are seen as a loud instrument. There is no end to the jokes and memes to that effect. Trombone faces light up whenever it's announced that the next concert will be Mahler, or Bruckner, or another composer known for big trombone sounds. Rock bands, big bands, blues bands, all sorts of contemporary groups are known for loud trombone playing. Then there are marching bands and arena bands that give a whole new meaning to the word "blasting."

But how loud do we really have to play? Isn't it enough to just fill up the horn?

But how loud do we really want to play? Isn't it fun to blast away?

Personally, I like to play a pretty big dynamic range. I like good parts to be heard, and I don't mind putting volume through the horn. But I'm a better and more nuanced player when I back off a bit.

What are your thoughts on loud tromboning?

[GabrielRice]

Maybe it's just because I'm not so young anymore, but I don't get into loud playing the way I used to. I'll take Brahms over Bruckner any day of the week. Shostakovich wrote incredibly powerful music - in more ways than just loud - but I don't love what he often asks us to do.

From a bass trombone perspective, I am seeing more and more new orchestral pieces and orchestrations for pops shows that ask for the extreme low register at ff and beyond. I'm sure it sounds awesome on the midi sample library, but I'm not interested in actually doing it and I'm not too proud to take it up an octave when I think it's a better choice.

[StephenK]

Generally I think it's a mistake to play louder than is possible with a good quality sound. Also louder than the room will take. I've been to a few concerts a few months ago where the sound lost clarity because it was too loud for the room, by a couple of very well know brass bands. A third managed it very well, all separate concerts, same hall.
I think there is a lack of appreciation that troms are very effective played quietly.
But perhaps this loudness is more a US problem? I don't know.
Personally I get a bit fed up if saxes don't play quietly when they should.

[Burgerbob]

As loud as needed. You need to have the ability, even if it's not used all the time (or ever). Same goes for softs.

Always be expanding in both directions.

[TomInME]

Always be expanding in both directions.

[musicofnote]

Heard as a trumpet player from such as Bo Nilsson, Ed Tarr, Pierre Thibaud, Bud Herseth:

Don't play loud, play full. I don't see why this wouldn't apply to trombone. This was one thing I noticed when listening to certain conductors - when they conducted, their brass played loud and thus distorted. But the same players conducted by other conductors never sounded distorted, yet full and glorious.

[Bach5G]

At a recent masterclass for high school students, the master noted there is forte and then there is a professional forte.

[LeTromboniste]

Trombones are seen as a loud instrument. There is no end to the jokes and memes to that effect. Trombone faces light up whenever it's announced that the next concert will be Mahler, or Bruckner, or another composer known for big trombone sounds. Rock bands, big bands, blues bands, all sorts of contemporary groups are known for loud trombone playing. Then there are marching bands and arena bands that give a whole new meaning to the word "blasting."

But how loud do we really have to play? Isn't it enough to just fill up the horn?

But how loud do we really want to play? Isn't it fun to blast away?

Personally, I like to play a pretty big dynamic range. I like good parts to be heard, and I don't mind putting volume through the horn. But I'm a better and more nuanced player when I back off a bit.

What are your thoughts on loud tromboning?

Dana, I read your post about 5 minutes after I finished teaching a lesson where one of the main things we did was work on how loud my student should play!

My opinion is that in most contexts I can think of, the top 10% loudest notes (i.e. the peak of phrases) could afford to be about 10% louder than I usually hear them played, and the rest would be better 10 to 90% softer than usually played. In other words, way broader dynamic range, mostly softening some notes somewhat, quite a bit, or a lot.

[Pezza]

A bass trombone needs to play loud enough to drown out the rest of the ensemble!

[hyperbolica]

As a section player, I aim for balance, and let the conductor or lead player set the final volume. Ideally the conductor will rein you in if you're out of control or ask you to step up if you're not pulling your weight.

If I'm lead, I calibrate the dynamics on the page by what's happening with the rest of the group, and of course follow the conductor if there is one.

If I'm playing bass, I try to play loud enough to be heard unless it's a blending situation. In situations where it's just horns and no rhythm section, it often goes to the bass bone to be the rhythm section. Then I make the articulation clear, but back off of the sustain.

I probably do err on the side of too loud, but I try to be sensitive to balance relative to the rest of the section and the rest of the group. Big band bass bone - match bari sax when appropriate, keep the beat, be the root of the chord, play the role you're assigned. Quartet bass bone, blend in or stand out to keep the rhythm. Orchestra lead - stay one step below the lead trumpet. Quintet tenor bone - situation changes constantly from solo voice to 3rd trumpet to duet with horn to octaves with tuba - gotta swing with it.

If you're a solo voice, you have to play loud enough to allow everybody else to play characteristically. I don't like to play with amplification, because you have to depend on someone else to get the balance right. I play with a couple people who solo so quietly, you really have to strain to get under them.

[tbdana]

Dana, I read your post about 5 minutes after I finished teaching a lesson where one of the main things we did was work on how loud my student should play!

My opinion is that in most contexts I can think of, the top 10% loudest notes (i.e. the peak of phrases) could afford to be about 10% louder than I usually hear them played, and the rest would be better 10 to 90% softer than usually played. In other words, way broader dynamic range, mostly softening some notes somewhat, quite a bit, or a lot.

That sounds like a pretty good general breakdown. And I agree about softening notes being the more common need.

I'm a huge believer in big dynamic range. As I've posted here probably a hundred times, I believe in playing the entire instrument. In this instance, that would include playing incredibly soft and delicate, and also very loud and dominant, and of course everything in-between, with the music dictating the volume of the instant.

My guess is that in considering the entire world of those who play trombone, the general trend is in not enough variation in volume, whatever their general volume. People tend to have a "set point," and vary from that set point to some degree, but generally not enough IMHO. Those whose set point is louder tend to not play soft enough, and those whose set point is softer tend not to get loud enough. But IMHO we need to have the entire dynamic range in our toolbox, and we need to liberally use each and every one of the tools.

I've dealt with players on both extremes. Incredible pros who believe they should never, ever have to play loud, and hobbyists who just want to blast away. Both of those extreme players still vary their volume around their set points, of course, but never reach the full spectrum of sound that IMHO is called for.

Honestly, I'd rather have a too loud player than a too soft one. I've found it easier to get the "too loud" player to back way off than to get the "too soft" player lean on it hard enough.

[tbdana]

As a section player, I aim for balance, and let the conductor or lead player set the final volume. Ideally the conductor will rein you in if you're out of control or ask you to step up if you're not pulling your weight.

If I'm lead, I calibrate the dynamics on the page by what's happening with the rest of the group, and of course follow the conductor if there is one.

If I'm playing bass, I try to play loud enough to be heard unless it's a blending situation. In situations where it's just horns and no rhythm section, it often goes to the bass bone to be the rhythm section. Then I make the articulation clear, but back off of the sustain.

I probably do err on the side of too loud, but I try to be sensitive to balance relative to the rest of the section and the rest of the group. Big band bass bone - match bari sax when appropriate, keep the beat, be the root of the chord, play the role you're assigned. Quartet bass bone, blend in or stand out to keep the rhythm. Orchestra lead - stay one step below the lead trumpet. Quintet tenor bone - situation changes constantly from solo voice to 3rd trumpet to duet with horn to octaves with tuba - gotta swing with it.

If you're a solo voice, you have to play loud enough to allow everybody else to play characteristically. I don't like to play with amplification, because you have to depend on someone else to get the balance right. I play with a couple people who solo so quietly, you really have to strain to get under them.

I love everything about this post, especially what you said about hitting articulations then backing off on bass trombone when the function is rhythmic. I wish every bass trombonist had that awareness.

Where I differ is that I personally prefer using a mic for solos.

In a jazz setting, I'm one of the "depend on someone else" solo offenders. If I have a mic, I'm going to get right up on it and play pretty softly into it, letting the audio engineer find the right balance. That way I have better flexibility and facility. I'm a big believer in clean playing. Playing softer into a mic gives me maximum ability to do those things and get more adventurous and technical without risking breaking up my sound or clipping notes. If I have to play a jazz solo without a mic, I will simplify what I play and I'll stay in a higher register that is easier for the audience to hear and allows me to play "clean."

[AndrewMeronek]

As all acoustic instruments do, trombones change tambre with changes in dynamics. This is absolutely a tool that can and should be used musically. (I do not subscribe to the approach to try to make the sound the same all the time.) That said, for many trombonists, going to the extreme loud or soft ends of dynamics suffers because more than tambre changes: time can get worse, pitch, etc.

My opinion is that in most contexts I can think of, the top 10% loudest notes (i.e. the peak of phrases) could afford to be about 10% louder than I usually hear them played, and the rest would be better 10 to 90% softer than usually played. In other words, way broader dynamic range, mostly softening some notes somewhat, quite a bit, or a lot.

100 agree!

I think that a lot of players are trained to not actually go for these extremes of their playing because their dynamic range isn't controlled independently from time, pitch, etc. But if you don't risk it, you can't get better.

[EriKon]

Dana, I read your post about 5 minutes after I finished teaching a lesson where one of the main things we did was work on how loud my student should play!

My opinion is that in most contexts I can think of, the top 10% loudest notes (i.e. the peak of phrases) could afford to be about 10% louder than I usually hear them played, and the rest would be better 10 to 90% softer than usually played. In other words, way broader dynamic range, mostly softening some notes somewhat, quite a bit, or a lot.

As others said, this describes exactly my thoughts about that topic.

In terms of jazz solos in a bigband context, I enjoy the sound of an amplification and the possibility of playing softer. But most of the bigband gigs I do regularly are in smaller venues and clubs without amplification for horns. I'm not afraid of playing louder in this case, as long as the music allows it. If it's a ballad with soft backgrounds it doesn't need as much as in a heavy shout solo or a funk tune. But I hate a solo to be buried by an acoustic setting just because the player just doesn't risk to play louder for whatever reason. It's still a solo and it should be heard, so you have to make some effort there as well. Would like to see and hear this mindset more often.

[JacksonK]

Not as much as people think.

Its all about projecting your voice WITHIN the musical context of the moment. Don't be a hero, especially if the music isn't focused on the low brass. Being sensitive to the greater context as it relates to your part is valuable.

[mgladdish]

I think I heard Ian Bousfield say on his podcast the American school of playing strives for the same timbre regardless of volume, and he found that a bit sterile. I have no idea whether that’s true or not, but that’s not something I aim for in my own playing.

The legendary Derek Watkins also swore there were only three dynamics, regardless of what was on the page. I presume this was coming from him spending so much time in the studio rather than live small ensembles, as that doesn’t sound much fun either.

I find small group jazz falls into this “set volume” trap all the time - you’ll get the same dynamic without variation for the entire gig. I want to hear contrast! Just sitting at the same level is leaving a huge room for musical expression on the table.

[harrisonreed]

It depends on the genre, I think. If you have a mic, you don't need to play any louder than what is needed to get the notes out. There is no need to be blasting in a combo group. In an orchestra or for a concerto, you might have to play pretty loud.

I've been to a very high level concerto performance with a major symphony, and I couldn't hear the damn soloist. A trombone player for crying out loud.

[harrisonreed]

I think I heard Ian Bousfield say on his podcast the American school of playing strives for the same timbre regardless of volume, and he found that a bit sterile. I have no idea whether that’s true or not, but that’s not something I aim for in my own playing.

I do miss that character of the old 88H, which goes zingy in the upper register when you push it.

[GabrielRice]

I think I heard Ian Bousfield say on his podcast the American school of playing strives for the same timbre regardless of volume, and he found that a bit sterile.

That had some truth to it at one point, but I don't think it's the case any longer.

The legendary Derek Watkins also swore there were only three dynamics, regardless of what was on the page. I presume this was coming from him spending so much time in the studio rather than live small ensembles, as that doesn’t sound much fun either.

Ray Premru used to say something similar - that in practice audiences could generally only perceive three dynamics - and that as performers we should make sure those three dynamics are distinct.

That didn't stop him from writing more than three dynamics in his music though!

[Finetales]

I have been asked to play extremely loud, and extremely soft.

I get asked to play very loud much more often, and I often play in musical contexts where that is expected if you walk in the door. A salsa gig for example...you have to be PUMPING to be heard over the percussion. But even in the orchestra I have been asked to play as loud as I possibly can multiple times, and not just on new pieces either. Some conductors don't want to hear the trombones at all...others can't get enough! And you have to be able to accommodate both.

Can't sound good going full tilt unless you practice it, like everything else. I think it's important for trombonists to have that skill available for when it is called for. The important thing is to know when it's appropriate to let it rip, and when it's not.

Of course playing loud is fun, but so is playing soft. I wish I got the chance to play soft and pretty more often, but the gigs I play don't call for that very much.

[tbdana]

Can't sound good going full tilt unless you practice it, like everything else. I think it's important for trombonists to have that skill available for when it is called for. The important thing is to know when it's appropriate to let it rip, and when it's not.

Yeah, this, for sure. I believe in playing the entire instrument, top to bottom and everything in between and that includes volume.

My modern preference is to not blast away. If I'm blasting, I'm not musical. Maybe in a salsa band that is called for, but I recently quit a salsa band and a funk band specifically because they required me to play so loud that it was overblowing the horn and was not musical in my opinion. But that's what certain genres call for.

In symphonic settings, I have a different philosophy. I think filling up the horn and getting a big sound is far preferable than playing "as loud as I can." Trombones can blow away the orchestra without a ton of effort. Big is what I shoot for, not blast. A trombone section that plays well can provide all the volume any orchestra ever needs without passing the point of good sound. The conductor can get someone else if they insist on me playing as loud as I can. Or they can pay me a double for it. It's unnecessary and not musical IMHO, even with the cannons firing away in the 1812 Overture.

Of course, in an orchestra setting we sit there for so long and have so little of interest to play that when we get to a Mahler 5 or some other piece that calls for a big, dramatic trombone sound, it's really tempting to overdo it because finally, finally! we get to actually play something and be heard.

[2bobone]

I spent at least a decade under a conductor whose favorite word was "crescendo" ! He was continually pissed, because as a string player, he didn't realize that in order to play loudly on a brass instrument the player must relax.
He conducted with his eyes and was upset if the brass section didn't look crazed as the dynamics rose. He had no idea that brass players had to breathe in order to make a sound !
There are plenty of places in repertoire that require a genuine "ffff" and that should be a arrow in every player's quiver.

[Savio]

Ok, a little story

Long time ago I was 18 year's and played in an amateur orchestra for first time. There was an extremely old conductor, about 80 or maybe older. I was very nervous, didn't know much about anything. Just hanging with girls, driving cool cars and go disco.

The first thing the old conductor say was the trombones was too loud. OK we play softer. He said still to loud. We played softer. In the last rehearsal we decided not to play, just to pretend. Then the old conductor smiled and told the trombones now are just right. Haha in the concert we played as loud we ever could.

Ok, thats a long time ago.

How loud? It depends on settings. Sometimes it's enough to make a good resonate sound in the middle, sometimes it's just to give all you have. As long it is in tune. I remember big band playing often to 2 or 3 in the night. And maybe tuning, intonation was way out.

Anyway, the trombone is made to be loud (and very soft.) OK Brahms ff is not the same as Mozart. But it's fun to give the "iron" sometimes. We have to do it

Leif

[BrassSection]

As the only non-guitar or keyboard in our band, I gotta balance between everything that is plugged in, the singers, and whatever horn I’m playing. Used to have a mic. Blessed with good acoustics in the church, spent extra time and $$ as head of the building committee 20 plus years ago. Sound guys said I come thru fine without the mic on any horn. Trumpet, trombone no doubt, French horn with rear facing bell and euph with upright bell come thru good too, as attested by some musical people scattered throughout the 600+ seating capacity sanctuary. Up to direction leader takes the music, can be quiet to loud on any horn as needed. Occasionally will slip a mute into the trombone for very quiet times, and once we muted both trumpets just for effect at a higher volume. Keep one ear open and in-ear in other to get better picture of the sound. Never had a complaint from anybody, not even my French horn expert daughter who would for sure notify me if I was too loud or not being heard. Bottom line, adjust as needed for the situation, or as Dad used to say “Use your head for something other than a hat rack,”

Had a 20 piece brass band concert there once, all members commented about our great acoustics.

[MStarke]

Nice story, Leif! have been there as well!

In orchestra there are not many situations that let you go to extreme volume. the loudest I can remember was bass trombone in Shostakovich 7th. But: Yes, I got "the hand" in at least one of the concerts. If I remember correctly one of the trumpets fainted in one concert and after the first full run through the symphony all the brass was pretty much done. that's more than 20 years ago.

[Finetales]

The first thing the old conductor say was the trombones was too loud. OK we play softer. He said still to loud. We played softer. In the last rehearsal we decided not to play, just to pretend. Then the old conductor smiled and told the trombones now are just right.

I've had that happen to me, except the conductor still said we were too loud when we mimed!

[CalgaryTbone]

Once in a rehearsal, the conductor had someone out front listening for balance. That person said the trombones were too loud in a tacet movement.

Jim Scott

[sf105]

I think there was a story that Harry Glantz (1st trumpet NBC) retired when Stokowski told them they were too loud while miming.

[sf105]

Also for consideration, most of us amateurs are not playing against a professional string section, so we don't have to crank up quite so much to balance.

As others have said, I'm more bothered about players not playing quietly enough when the part demands. We can do better than mp->mf.

[2bobone]

Savio posted : " In the last rehearsal we decided not to play, just to pretend."

When Kurt Sanderling guest conducted the NSO he complained that the trombones were too loud in a Schubert Symphony [can't remember which one]. SO --- for the second concert we played pianissimo. STILL too loud ! For the third and final concert we mimed our playing ! I wouldn't go along with the scheme until I was sure that the principal trombone agreed to take the heat if anything went wrong. The conductor's appraisal ? PERFECT !!!
It just bolsters my long held opinion that many conductors hear with their eyes --- not their ears !

[WGWTR180]

A bass trombone needs to play loud enough to drown out the rest of the ensemble!

This idiotic stereotype needs to go away.

[GabrielRice]

A bass trombone needs to play loud enough to drown out the rest of the ensemble!

This idiotic stereotype needs to go away.

Amen

[JTeagarden]

I used to take lessons with Jim Markey, and one time he played an excerpt from whatever the Pittsburgh Symphony was currently performing (Saint-Saëns Organ Symphony, maybe?), and he played it as loudly as they were playing it in the section.

It was off-the-charts loud, but never strident, it was a beautiful trombone sound, just very, very loud, and there would be no way to play like that with control if you didn't practice it.

His comment at the time was to the effect of "people are surprised just how loud you sometimes have to play in an orchestra."

I also recall him playing the beginning of Firebird, which has I think tbn 1 & 2 playing low in minor 3rds against each other, probably ppp, and the same result: beautiful sound, just sounded very far away!

The bass trombone can indeed bury everyone, but why would you want to? It is the Mike Ermantraut of the orchestra.

[MahlerMusic]

From my experience, I’ve found that when a conductor says, 'Keep it down, trombones,' it’s often due to issues with intonation, poor tone quality, or a blaring sound from a player who isn’t maintaining a consistent volume throughout the note.

Recording my rehearsals has really opened my eyes to balance and how I actually sound from the front of the bell. At one point, I considered switching to a Denis Wick 4ABL mouthpiece to get more volume out of my sound. But after listening to a rehearsal recording, I could clearly hear every single note in my passage—standing out even during a fortissimo full orchestra section in Bruckner’s 4th Symphony with a Conn 5g on an 8H.

[Kbiggs]

I used to take lessons with Jim Markey, and one time he played an excerpt from whatever the Pittsburgh Symphony was currently performing (Saint-Saëns Organ Symphony, maybe?), and he played it as loudly as they were playing it in the section.

It was off-the-charts loud, but never strident, it was a beautiful trombone sound, just very, very loud, and there would be no way to play like that with control if you didn't practice it.

His comment at the time was to the effect of "people are surprised just how loud you sometimes have to play in an orchestra."

I also recall him playing the beginning of Firebird, which has I think tbn 1 & 2 playing low in minor 3rds against each other, probably ppp, and the same result: beautiful sound, just sounded very far away!

The bass trombone can indeed bury everyone, but why would you want to? It is the Mike Ermantraut of the orchestra.

Yes, in orchestras and bands we are sometimes asked to play very loudly. And sometimes—very rarely—we are asked to play so loud that the sound becomes unpleasant. Crass. All blare and no beauty. I remember being asked to play that loudly maybe 2 or 3 times in the last 35 years. I really, really dislike it, but I can do it when it’s called for.

All trombonists, not just orchestra players or salsa players, need to practice playing very loudly, just like we need to practice upper register, articulation, endurance, etc., just like we practice any other skill. We need to learn what it sounds and feels like so we know when we approach that feeling, that timbre that is so disagreeable.

Yes, we can bury the orchestra. But that should never be our goal. We are, after all, part of the music, one portion of a much bigger picture. Schubert, Liszt, Bruckner, Mahler, Berg, etc., all wrote music that asked for the sound of the trombone, not trombone with a little orchestra on the side (or vocalist or accompaniment). Why spoil a dish with too much of this spice or that one?

I think it was Milt Stevens who said, “Never louder than lovely.” I like that.

[Savio]

My teacher told once; During a perfomance do the he highest volume one time. But only one time. And do the opposite lot of times. I love to play FFF but don't practice it much anymore. But as everyone say a good tone will get through anything. The optimal is a good tone with lot of sound behind. And then also loud....

Leif

[Pezza]

This idiotic stereotype needs to go away.

Amen

It's a joke people

[GabrielRice]

Amen

It's a joke people

Oh, I know it's a joke. It's a joke that should go away, like the Polish jokes we used to tell when I was a kid.

[Kbiggs]

It's a joke people

Oh, I know it's a joke. It's a joke that should go away, like the Polish jokes we used to tell when I was a kid.

+1

[tbdana]

It's a joke people

Oh, I know it's a joke. It's a joke that should go away, like the Polish jokes we used to tell when I was a kid.

A Polish bass trombonist tried to play loud enough to drown out the orchestra but got lost in 278 bars of rest and missed his entrance.

[Posaunus]

Let's face it - trombonists don't make very good comedians.

[robcat2075]

Well, I need to get new glasses.

I had a whole reply written and then i saw that the topic was not, "But how bad do you really have to play?"

Never mind.

[harrisonreed]

NSFTC

[Savio]

I was in Carnegie Hall long time ago and listen him with the New York Symphony. I was 18 and before the concert I went down to the stage and tried to speak with him, and he told me which music shops to visit for mouthpieces and wich shops for LP plates. I remember well he told me to go to second floor in one of the twin's towers. The biggest music shop in New York at that time. So because of the sad things that happens afterwards I remember this so very well. He was very kind and helpful. And so happy he come down from his chair and speak to me, a 18 years old tourists. I noticed he had a Schilke mouthpiece. They played Haydn Cello Concerto, an oboe d'amore concerto which was wonderful. And the high point, the new world symphony. And I can remember the brass was wonderful at all dynamics. I think that hall is wonderful because where I was sitting I could listen bass trombone and tuba even in ppp dynamic. All honor to that helpful man, Donald Harwood.

I don't like that video going around even it's a joke.

Leif

[CalgaryTbone]

I was in Carnegie Hall long time ago and listen him with the New York Symphony. I was 18 and before the concert I went down to the stage and tried to speak with him, and he told me which music shops to visit for mouthpieces and wich shops for LP plates. I remember well he told me to go to second floor in one of the twin's towers. The biggest music shop in New York at that time. So because of the sad things that happens afterwards I remember this so very well. He was very kind and helpful. And so happy he come down from his chair and speak to me, a 18 years old tourists. I noticed he had a Schilke mouthpiece. They played Haydn Cello Concerto, an oboe d'amore concerto which was wonderful. And the high point, the new world symphony. And I can remember the brass was wonderful at all dynamics. I think that hall is wonderful because where I was sitting I could listen bass trombone and tuba even in ppp dynamic. All honor to that helpful man, Donald Harwood.

I don't like that video going around even it's a joke.

Leif

[BrianJohnston]

It was never the loud dynamics from Harwood that impressed me, but rather the stability of his tone in those dynamics. Listen to just about any recording of him in his prime years playing loud… those notes are stable bricks, they do not wobble whatsoever.

[CalgaryTbone]

OK, not sure if this is the thread to address this, but I'd like to start this by saying that I think it's poor form to post a clip of a respected professional with some snarky comments attached to it. If I were to post a clip, it would be to show something that excites me as a player, and I want to share.

Like Brian said, if you really listen to that clip, the sound is full and stable throughout. The pitch is spot on, and the entire brass and percussion section are all playing at a very loud but balanced volume. There are some clips from the same concert, and James Levine (the conductor here) is definitely encouraging more sound from the brass throughout the concert.

Like Leif, I have fond memories of Don Harwood. He was on the faculty of Juilliard while I was there, and I got to play with his excellent students - Steve Norell, John Rojak, Phil Brink and later Joe Stanko were in his studio back then. When I was near to the end of my Bachelor's, I had a jury exam that went well, and it happened to coincide with a time when they were re-examining their sub list. I know that Mr. Harwood was someone who supported moving me up their list based on that jury exam, and wanted to give me a chance to come in to the NYP as a sub.

The concerts I played with them were a thrill, and were a "career maker" for me. Sitting next to Harwood on a couple of concerts was an education - the playing was impeccable. He was also a gentleman and a consummate professional. After I started my job here, I would come back to NYC a couple of times a year, and when I would stop by the concert hall to see Ed Herman (my teacher), Harwood would always great me with a handshake and smile, and would always ask about how the job was going. I appreciate his kind words and subtle mentorship.

As far as the original topic of the thread, yes there are times when a brass section needs to use a truly forceful fortissimo - those times are not as frequent as some people choose to do. The NYP clip is from the mid 80's or so. There seemed to be a swing of the pendulum then towards really big sounds. There are also some similar recordings from other orchestras from that time period. I think the pendulum has swung back a bit, and there's a bit less on the fortissimo front. No matter what, there will always be some people that think any given performance is too loud, and others will want more from that same concert. You need to discover what works in your situation, and that especially means keeping the conductor happy if you want to keep your job.

Jim Scott

[harrisonreed]

Lighten up everyone.

Obviously Harwood was in good form for that performance. It's not really poking fun at him. Just the setting. The filming. That guy in the choir. Don is for sure blasting the crap out of that trombone though. And sounding great doing it.

I'll take down the post though.

[Windmill]

The right volume is when you blend in the overall sound of the band you play in. When it serves the music, regarding which style you play, also.

In my jazz quintet, I can play PPP.,... In salsa bands, I blow the hell out of the bell. With street bands, well.. depends! If the narrow streets give the band a good core, I don't have to push much, especially if young children are dancing right in front of the bell. If we play in wide open spaces with no resonance, we'll increase the volume of course.

A famous trumpet player once tolde "you don't have to play loud to be heard" that's still stuck in my mind. He had such a rich, large tone that he could fill a room while playing mf.