A mouthpiece for one purpose?

[tbdana]

I play first in a trombone choir, and in this particular trombone choir that means I'm playing in the upper part of the treble clef staff (high Bb to high F) for two solid hours, usually with no rests, and definitely with no relief since no one else will play any of those first parts. (Sorry for the run-on sentence.) Really, I cannot get one other person to take the occasional first part. I think that's because of how high and hard they are.

I'm dead by the end of the rehearsal, every single time. Wiped out. And really struggling for the last 30 minutes.

I don't own an alto trombone, and bringing a small bore horn is frowned upon because of the difference in tone.

So I'm wondering if perhaps bringing a smaller mouthpiece for my 88HCLSGX to help me make it through with some chops left is a sensible idea. I'm not normally one to adjust equipment, so I don't have a sense of whether this is a good or very bad idea.

I normally play the Marcenciewicz Byron Peebles model. I also sometimes use a Bach 5G. But I have a 6 11/2 AL with a large shank that I could use, and I suspect it will do two things: (1) brighten the tone, and (2) make it easier to play the high range for two solid hours.

Any thoughts on whether I should give that a try or just stick to my regular mouthpiece and continue pounding myself in the chops with my fist for two hours?

[Posaunus]

Dana,

It's time that you throw in the towel and contact Doug Elliott about a mouthpiece more suitable for high range playing. I would speculate that he'll suggest a shallower Cup (perhaps LT D) with an appropriate D8 Shank [or maybe LT E / E8] for your 0.547" bore 88HCLSGX, and an LT 101 or LT 102 Rim that will feel like your Marcinkiewicz Peebles or Bach 5G (but perhaps even more comfortable). The shallower Cup will facilitate your high notes, but at the expense of your low range - which you apparently don't need the the choir.

You have very little to lose - if you don't like the DE setup, they are easy to resell at a reasonable price.

[JohnL]

I don't own an alto trombone, and bringing a small bore horn is frowned upon because of the difference in tone.

If they don't want a small bore, they're not going to want an alto, either.

...no one else will play any of those first parts. (Sorry for the run-on sentence.) Really, I cannot get one other person to take the occasional first part. I think that's because of how high and hard they are.

...and there's your problem.

So I'm wondering if perhaps bringing a smaller mouthpiece for my 88HCLSGX to help me make it through with some chops left is a sensible idea. I'm not normally one to adjust equipment, so I don't have a sense of whether this is a good or very bad idea.

I normally play the Marcenciewicz Byron Peebles model. I also sometimes use a Bach 5G. But I have a 6 11/2 AL with a large shank that I could use, and I suspect it will do two things: (1) brighten the tone, and (2) make it easier to play the high range for two solid hours.

As with the alto option, even the slightly brighter sound you get by moving to a 6½ AL might not meet with universal approval.

Any thoughts on whether I should give that a try or just stick to my regular mouthpiece and continue pounding myself in the chops with my fist for two hours?

Go ahead and try a different mouthpiece (just don't tell anyone you're doing so). But if it comes down to beating the crap out of your chops, you need to put your foot down. Either someone needs to step up and give you some some help or they need to add some charts to the book that give you a break.

How are you arranging skills?

[hyperbolica]

bringing a small bore horn is frowned upon because of the difference in tone.

Did someone actually say that to you? That's kind of stunning. Do they let bass bone players bring in something other than a 547? I'm not going to be able to get over that. Are there really people like that?


As long as they limit what kind of bone you can bring, you should also be limited to a 5G megatone made between 1994 and 1998. Gold plated. Oh, be a rebel, bring a 6.5L

So no one will play the 1st part, and you are limited to a 547, and probably one with a trigger at that. That's really stunning.

[tbonesullivan]

If it's mostly way up high, I'm not sure why a "difference in tone" would really matter, as the tone is already different in the higher tessitura. In some ways a smaller bore trombone up there might match better with the large bore tenors playing lower.

If that's a no-go, try the 6 1/2AL and see how it goes.

[JohnL]

Are there really people like that?

Yup. Usually they don't come out and say that small bore horns aren't allowed, they just bludgeon them senseless with the "darken your tone" club until they either "get with the program" or leave.

[Burgerbob]

Sounds like you should use your 16.

[BGuttman]

I really feel for you, Dana. I know trumpet players who won't play parts that high for more than 2 tunes in a row.

Real trombone choirs generally use small bores (or altos) on the higher parts. Your 16 might even be a bit big for that role.

Maybe the reason nobody else will play those parts is because of that stricture of needing to play on a symphonic tenor.

A shallow mouthpiece might be a solution, but I don't think it's a durable one. After all, Tommy Dorsey used a mouthpiece that wasn't much bigger than a trumpet mouthpiece. Or maybe a SL2525 on your 88H could help (with something like a Bach 4C mouthpiece).

I'm sure that when Peebles and Sauer played parts like that they were using something smaller than their symphony tenors.

If their egos are too stiff, maybe the answer is to walk. Maybe then they will take you on your terms.

[CalgaryTbone]

Sounds like you should use your 16.

Ditto!

JS

[MStarke]

Out of curiosity: What kind of music are you playing. without further information that sounds like pretty "strange" (bad?) arranging and/or instrumentation, but maybe it makes sense.

Anyway I wouldn't care what others think and play it on small bore - and still fail at some point

[Doug Elliott]

Sounds like it's their way way of hazing to see if you can hang with the boys.

I'm not totally familiar with the Byron Peebles model but I've seen the specs, at least as they interpret them which is not necessarily the way I would. I make compatible stuff that would serve the purpose without being overly bright.

[UATrombone]

Conn SL2525 or SL2547 + DE LT E/E4 and rim of your choice could be good solution, IMO.
Or, maybe 36B, if medium bore is allowed...

[LeTromboniste]

That "no small bore on 1st" rule is really stupid. If I were in that situation and thought it would sound better with a smaller horn, I would just show up there with a Conn 6H and if someone complained, I'd say it's an 8H.

[harrisonreed]

I'm dead by the end of the rehearsal, every single time. Wiped out. And really struggling for the last 30 minutes.

I don't own an alto trombone, and bringing a small bore horn is frowned upon because of the difference in tone.

So alto would be acceptable in the group but small bore wouldn't? Talk about the group hearing with their eyes.

First off, get an alto trombone. Parts that stay consistently between Bb and F in the G clef are definitely written with alto in mind, and honestly parts with excessive high Fs are already out of the register for alto.

Second, even if you don't get an alto, get an alto trombone mouthpiece. You can't go wrong with a piece from DE with the alto shank, B or A cup, and a rim that matches what you're used to. Or wait till I start cutting mine in a few months. I'm going to get the loan for my lathe this month.

[JohnL]

Out of curiosity: What kind of music are you playing. without further information that sounds like pretty "strange" (bad?) arranging and/or instrumentation, but maybe it makes sense.

I suspect it's mostly 8-part trombone choir.

In my (admittedly limited) experience with trombone choir music,, when there are that many parts, the top part tends to
be heavy on high notes and light on mercy.

[MStarke]

I suspect it's mostly 8-part trombone choir.

In my (admittedly limited) experience with trombone choir music,, when there are that many parts, the top part tends to
be heavy on high notes and light on mercy.

I have played a lot of that music. It's definitely very demanding in the first part. But it's not all constantly between high Bb and high F (or am I reading the high F wrong?). Repeatedly yes, but not constantly. And the well written more extreme stuff (Bourgeois Osteoblast for example) often demands for or at least allows and alto.

[tbdana]

The music is trombone choir music for anywhere from 8 to 16 trombones. It's mostly classical. Much of it divides between transcriptions of orchestral pieces and choral pieces (especially sacred choral music going back hundreds of years).

The choral music is hardest because it starts in the stratosphere and stays up there, with no rests. The orchestral transcriptions are more as Markus describes.

Most of the music is written by two bass trombonists, Jeff Reynolds and Dave Rollins. Jeff in particular will write ambitious first parts. I'm sure Jeff thinks of it as confidence in my ability, but he does kind of gleefully cackle when he gives me something particularly outrageous.

Two things I want to say. First is that no one actually said "don't bring a small bore," it's just kind of a subtle pressure. And second, thanks to your comments I'm inspired to take my 16M next time despite the disapproval. Or I could leave all tenors home and just bring my bass trombone.

It's actually a compliment that they always stick me on the first part, and I'm not complaining about that. I'm just complaining about my inability to make it through a rehearsal with chops remaining, and wondering if a different mouthpiece would help.

[tbdana]

Sounds like it's their way way of hazing to see if you can hang with the boys.

I'm not totally familiar with the Byron Peebles model but I've seen the specs, at least as they interpret them which is not necessarily the way I would. I make compatible stuff that would serve the purpose without being overly bright.

Doug, even though I am reluctant to make equipment changes, I'm seeking one now, and what you said sounds great. So how do I go about getting such a mouthpiece from you?

[MStarke]

Thanks for clarifying Reg the arrangements. I guess that's a special situation/demand then...

As some parallels: I have some of the Tommy Hoyt's Garage arrangements that Alan Kaplan is selling. They are pretty demanding typically for the first 3-4 parts. However I read/heard somewhere that with the original group they changed parts among each other/took turns on the high stuff. Plus they typically played small bores. As Alan does on his recordings for the higher parts.

Also (obviously a smaller group) the Slokar Trombone Quartet stuff (e g the James Bond Suite) can be quite demanding and are intended for large bore tenors. But they are iirc written in a way that the high stuff goes through all the tenor parts. Great if you have three good tenors. Unplayable if you just have one.

[tbdana]

As some parallels: I have some of the Tommy Hoyt's Garage arrangements that Alan Kaplan is selling. They are pretty demanding typically for the first 3-4 parts. However I read/heard somewhere that with the original group they changed parts among each other/took turns on the high stuff. Plus they typically played small bores. As Alan does on his recordings for the higher parts.

By "Tommy Hoyt's Garage arrangements" I assume you mean Tommy Pederson's arrangements from Hoyt Bohannon's garage trombone group? If so, all those guys indeed played small bore tenors, and they did indeed swap parts around, so that there was never any safe spot to be in. LOL! Particularly if you were a newbie, as they liked to test newbies.

[CalgaryTbone]

Why not bring 2 horns? Use a .547 for the stuff that requires a bigger sound, and use a .500 or .508 for the tunes that stay in the upper range forever. I have done that for the occasional pops concert that has some classical rep. on it. Alternatively, if a show like that has just a bit of classical rep., and it's fairly light music, my .508 bore can work for everything if I don't push the volume too much.

Jim Scott

[MStarke]

By "Tommy Hoyt's Garage arrangements" I assume you mean Tommy Pederson's arrangements from Hoyt Bohannon's garage trombone group? If so, all those guys indeed played small bore tenors, and they did indeed swap parts around, so that there was never any safe spot to be in. LOL! Particularly if you were a newbie, as they liked to test newbies.

Absolutely. I wanted to write something on Tommy Pederson and Hoyt Bohannon, changed the sentence and messed it up.

[BGuttman]

Hoyt's Garage had a bunch of top call players on the top parts and could easily swap off. Poor Dana doesn't have such a luxury.

I like Jim's suggestion about having two horns. I remember playing some Christmas concerts with 3 horns: large tenor, small tenor, and alto. With similar sized rims you won't have much trouble switching (except for the big differences in the amount of breath support).

[JohnL]

Hoyt's Garage had a bunch of top call players on the top parts and could easily swap off. Poor Dana doesn't have such a luxury.

At least according to this write-up on Alan Kaplan's webpage, the parts were typically rotated.

If there is a conductor, they usually select a piece with hard first tenor trombone part (in order to terrorize the “first player”) and an easy low tenor part (since the low tenor player will rotate to conductor on the following piece and the “old” conductor will rotate to first). By the time of the official mid-rehearsal break, every player has completed at least one full clockwise rotation through each part in descending order.

On the other hand,

...it should be noted that Hoyt and Tommy wrote all of the parts to be equally difficult; therefore, the downward rotation doesn’t necessarily provide any rest for the “weary.”

No easy parts, but maybe a little less taxing from a range standpoint?

Dana, did you ever have the chance to play at Hoyt's Garage?

[tbdana]

I played there twice. On a third occasion I had to bail and was never asked back.

[Doug Elliott]

"choral pieces (especially sacred choral music going back hundreds of years).

The choral music is hardest because it starts in the stratosphere and stays up there, with no rests. "


Obviously alto parts, or maybe even soprano.

[harrisonreed]

It's what the people want.

[tbdana]

"choral pieces (especially sacred choral music going back hundreds of years).

The choral music is hardest because it starts in the stratosphere and stays up there, with no rests. "


Obviously alto parts, or maybe even soprano.

So, Doug, sell me a mouthpiece! I'm up for it. Tell me what you think works best for this situation. (Extra points if I can use it as a general mouthpiece.)

[Doug Elliott]

Send me your address

[hyperbolica]

It's what the people want.

The Tastee Bros? I thought all of that was safely behind us. They haven't been a thing for, what 15 years? Of course these guys formed my opinion of trumpet players.

[JohnL]

The Tastee Bros? I thought all of that was safely behind us. They haven't been a thing for, what 15 years? Of course these guys formed my opinion of trumpet players.

I think the only trace of them left in general circulation is the Christmas recording.

[LeTromboniste]

"choral pieces (especially sacred choral music going back hundreds of years).

The choral music is hardest because it starts in the stratosphere and stays up there, with no rests. "


Obviously alto parts, or maybe even soprano.

Usually cornetto parts/soprano voice parts, with pieces transposed down some distance down, but never anywhere close to the distance between that and the trombones comfortable range (lest the basses end up way too low and the harmonies way too muddy). It's very much a less than ideal scenario

[dukesboneman]

As Sam Burtis used to say" The right tool for the job".
If no one is willing to help out and spell you on the 1st parts, Play the equipment that makes the job easiest for you.
The group as a whole will sound better if you`re not stressed and struggling .
If someone says anything, hand them the 1st book

[harrisonreed]

It's what the people want.

The Tastee Bros? I thought all of that was safely behind us. They haven't been a thing for, what 15 years? Of course these guys formed my opinion of trumpet players.

It seems they've had a hand in these arrangements that Dana has to play in the trombone choir. Somewhere, someone, at any given time thinks that neverending high F's are what people should be doing on the trombone. Or that cornetto parts should be played on trumpet. The Tastee Bruhs live on ...



Bach was a Tastee

[marccromme]

I'm playing in the upper part of the treble clef staff (high Bb to high F) for two solid hours, usually with no rests, and definitely with no relief since no one else will play any of those first parts.

....

I don't own an alto trombone, and bringing a small bore horn is frowned upon because of the difference in tone.

Hi Dana, what I don't understand here is why do you accept that this impossible situation is your problem?

I suggest that you solve it with the equipment of your choice, and if anybody frowns ask them to switch parts with you every second tune.

Or that they find an alto trombone player for the part..

Or even a trumpet player.

Or a change of repertoire. ..

In any case, it should not be your problem.

Just my humble opinion. ...

[LeTromboniste]

Bach was a Tastee

That, he was! Even more impressive (and silly) on a proper holeless natural trumpet:

https://youtu.be/CEJ-xcblCMo?si=wmWltksWdyP9wVds

(unfortunately embed not authorized on that video)

[Doug Elliott]

Wow, that's pretty impressive.

[harrisonreed]

Bach was a Tastee

That, he was! Even more impressive (and silly) on a proper holeless natural trumpet:

https://youtu.be/CEJ-xcblCMo?si=wmWltksWdyP9wVds

(unfortunately embed not authorized on that video)

That stance the guy takes is classic. You can't play that instrument any other way.

[GabrielRice]

Brandenburg 2 was not written for cornetto, but for an actual trumpet sometimes called a clarino trumpet.

Friends of mine who play baroque trumpet at a professional level tell me that in many ways this piece is easier this way than on a modern piccolo trumpet.

[Burgerbob]

Bach was a Tastee

That, he was! Even more impressive (and silly) on a proper holeless natural trumpet:

https://youtu.be/CEJ-xcblCMo?si=wmWltksWdyP9wVds

(unfortunately embed not authorized on that video)

The absolute stance on this guy

[LeTromboniste]

Brandenburg 2 was not written for cornetto, but for an actual trumpet sometimes called a clarino trumpet.

Friends of mine who play baroque trumpet at a professional level tell me that in many ways this piece is easier this way than on a modern piccolo trumpet.

Absolutely, trumpet rep, not cornetto. Clarino refers to the technique/register/type of playing, of florid high diatonic playing, so mostly from the 6th to 16th+ partials, as opposed to the Principale register used for fanfares and drones, usually up to the 6th or 8th partial.

On a "baroque" trumpet (modern instrument with vent holes) I can imagine how it could become easier than on piccolo once one is proficient enough. On a natural trumpet (no holes), though, this is kind of insane – there's only about a handful of players today who could play this piece at a good level.

To bring the topic back at last somewhat in the direction of Dana's original query, note the size of the mouthpiece Jean-François uses on that video. It's huge. Closer to a small trombone mouthpiece size than a trumpet mouthpiece.

[harrisonreed]

Yes, it was written for trumpet. That doesn't make it any less of part that might as well have been written for cornetto.

[BGuttman]

Bach's trumpet payer was Johan Pezel, who (like many of his contemporaries) played several instruments, including violin. There is a picture of him with a spiral-shaped instrument which I thought was what was originally used for Brandenburg #2.

Pezel wrote a number of pieces for brass quintet, probably expecting 2 trumpets/clarinos/cornettos and 3 trombones/sackbuts (alto, tenor, and bass).

[heldenbone]

Gottfried Reiche, I think.

[LeTromboniste]

Bach's trumpet payer was Johan Pezel, who (like many of his contemporaries) played several instruments, including violin. There is a picture of him with a spiral-shaped instrument which I thought was what was originally used for Brandenburg #2.

Pezel wrote a number of pieces for brass quintet, probably expecting 2 trumpets/clarinos/cornettos and 3 trombones/sackbuts (alto, tenor, and bass).

Bachs trumpet player in Leipzig was Gottfried Reiche, not Pezel. But the Brandenburg 2 both predate his working with Reiche by several years, yet were written a couple decades after Pezel died (when Bach was only 9 years old), so it was written for neither of them.

Yes, it was written for trumpet. That doesn't make it any less of part that might as well have been written for cornetto.

Although extremely virtuosic and pushing the envelope, it is still very much fully idiomatic for trumpet, and not really particularly idiomatic for cornetto. For one thing, being for trumpet in F, it would sit extremely high for cornetto. A part for cornett would feature a lot more fast and intricate passagework. This part would be very annoying to a cornettist for being so incredibly hard range-wise yet being so simple and displaying none of the things the cornetto is good at. A part written for cornetto also wouldn't carefully avoid certain notes and modulations like Bach does here (for example, the trumpet being tacet in the 2nd movement because it can't play in minor keys). And while cornetto and trumpet writing in the 18th century did get somewhat closer to each other, it's the cornetto that lost some of its idioms and whose writing became more trumpet-like (because by then the trumpet was much more common and evocative than the cornetto), not the other way around.

[Nomsis]

To the OP, IMHO chorales sound very nice/best with an alto on top. It would probably still be demanding but easier and would probably sound better. Not questioning you can make it sound nice on a large bore tenor but I agree that it does not feel like reasonable writing. I think it is not the range the large bore shines the most. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
I say this as a listener to trombone music not as a player because even on alto I can barely play in this range.

[BGuttman]

Maximilien, thanks for correcting me. It was Reiche with the picture of the coiled trumpet.



I would also like to point out that in the 18th and 19th centuries, the alto trombone part would have been played on a small bore Bb instrument according to Howard Weiner.

[harrisonreed]

Ahhh, Gottfried Reiche ... Oh the jokes. Did you know he opened the first stir-fry restaurant in Europe? The device he's holding in the painting is actually a cooking oil dispersal unit, and the paper is a ticket for table 12.

I had a book of BQ arrangements with names like that in it, all real people, but it just read like a joke book.

[Finetales]

I've tried some baroque/natural trumpets, with the proper mouthpieces. I have absolutely no idea how those players do it. Maybe I'd have more of a fighting chance these days, but back then I was hopeless at it!

[Posaunus]

Notice the size (large diameter) of Reiche's mouthpiece. Looks like a trombone mouthpiece!