Old closed wrap 88 or 42 with a modern valve

[BoNeLife]

Just wondering if anyone has an vintage closed wrap 88 or 42 with a modern valve. Pictures would be great!

[BGuttman]

The bending of the F-attachment tubing in an old Bach 42 or Conn 88H won't fit an axial (Thayer) or Hagmann valve. They require a different wrap.

[NotSkilledHere]

I've seen a few 88's and 42's with modern rotor style valves, mostly of the instrument innovations valves. I haven't played them myself but I have heard some good things about them. I can think of this one fairly recently on BrassArk but not an instrument innovations valve: https://brassark.com/sale_horns/elkhart ... onversion/

as for Thayers/axials, the closed wrap of either 88 or 42 wont fit the ports simply dont line up and you cant just cut tubing off to fit it. you would have to rebend a large portion of it and remeasure everything so that it's in tune. at that point, it would be better to just fabricate a fresh set of tubing for the valve section. In addition, those valves are built on the concept of being open, which the closed wrap kind of is in the opposite direction of. However, I have seen a few conn 8/88h's retrofitted with Thayers/axials, some on this forum, to what has been quoted as good success.

Hagmann valves are kind of in line with Thayers in terms of the concept being to open up the horn and provide the most open playing experience and also just not being able to line up with the valve ports. Hagmann however is kind of in a weird boat. They manufacture their valve and wrap sections as complete packages as an available option, which is what Bach uses to fit to their horns, which has led to some interesting problems being extremely flat on the earlier horns, which Bach has since solved. However, even in such cases, Bach has only opted to use the open wrap versions on their 42A and 50A3. Hagmann DOES in fact make a sort of closed wrap valve section on the other hand. These have made it onto a few custom builds over the years and people do seem to like them. Mr SwissTBone has one up for sale right now actually: https://swisstbone.com/products/bach-42 ... screw-bell

[Burgerbob]

These have made it onto a few custom builds over the years and people do seem to like them. Mr SwissTBone has one up for sale right now actually: https://swisstbone.com/products/bach-42 ... screw-bell

Funny enough, I'm sitting next to that horn (I didn't buy it!). In any case, it's sold. Very nice trombone.

[Bonearzt]

Olsen 42 install 25%.jpg

I've done a couple of Olsen valves in standard wrap and custom, semi-open wrap configurations.
The Olsen valve is a bit larger so it's not a plug-n-play into a Bach closed valve set, but the rebuilding does wonders for the response of the bell section in addition to the openness of the valve itself!

Attached is a pic from some time ago...

[hornbuilder]

I think the OP was talking about modern "rotary" valves.

Yes, such a conversion is absolutely do-able. In the photo is one example that I have done. This was a Bach 42G, that had a complete overhaul, including replacing the factory valve with one of my M&W rotors. Contrary to widely held belief, a traditional wrap, on a modern rotary valves plays great! Not at all "stuffy". The valve itself is much more important to how the horn plays than the wrap geometry.

I've also done such work on Conn 88H and Bach 50 bass trombones.

[Bonearzt]

I think the OP was talking about modern "rotary" valves.

Yes, such a conversion is absolutely do-able. In the photo is one example that I have done. This was a Bach 42G, that had a complete overhaul, including replacing the factory valve with one of my M&W rotors. Contrary to widely held belief, a traditional wrap, on a modern rotary valves plays great! Not at all "stuffy". The valve itself is much more important to how the horn plays than the wrap geometry.

I've also done such work on Conn 88H and Bach 50 bass trombones.

Absolutely beautiful!!

[Blabberbucket]

The new O'Malley (Chicago) trombones are essentially a vintage instrument with modern, high quality CNC machined rotors (made in-house in Chicago) and some other "modern" flair such as interchangeable leadpipes, adjusted bracing, etc. It might be just what you're looking for.

[BoNeLife]

Alright, you’ve inspired me. I’m going to slap a closed wrap on my Elkhart 8h, with a fancy modern valve, I’ll build im the the next few months when I have some time. I’ll try to remember to post photos.

[MrHCinDE]

Here’s what I had done to a straight Bach 42

IMG_1385.jpeg

Not sure if you’d classify it as an open or closed wrap, for me it’s somewhere in between. The valve is a special design made for W.Rapp.

I tried some more open setups in the past but this is the right balance for me. The small downside is that the F tuning slide sticks out a bit, though not as much as a Conn open wrap.

The horn plays a lot more securely and consistently than any 42B with factory rotor I’ve tried and I have no regrets in going the route of taking a great straight horn and making it modular with a modern valve setup.

[harrisonreed]

The picture above -- that 180⁰ turn defeats the whole purpose of the open wrap in my mind. Why do they do that?

Did you request the 180 turn or was the rotor just set up that way?

[hornbuilder]

On older, "undersized-port" rotors, yes, that 180⁰ can be an issue. On newer, "100% port volume" rotors, where the radius of the 180⁰ port is larger than a particular size, it is really not an issue at all. On my own valve, there is virtually no difference in response/feel between the F and Gb valves. If that were not the case, I as a player, would not have chosen this configuration.

[BGuttman]

180° bends are not inherently bad. I played a Yamaha 682 with the typical Yamaha wrap with two 180°bends, but very gentle ones. It played much more open than a Bach 42BO (mostly because of that tight Bach rotor).

[MrHCinDE]

The picture above -- that 180⁰ turn defeats the whole purpose of the open wrap in my mind. Why do they do that?

Did you request the 180 turn or was the rotor just set up that way?

Were you asking about mine?

The valve wrap is the same one which W.Rapp uses for his own design horns, it was the result of extensive testing with various wraps and this was the one that had the wow factor for his taste, and in the opinion of his testers.

The Bach 42 frame is a bit narrower across the main brace than his own design so he had to modify some dimensions slightly, I was slightly concerned it would end up too tight but am very pleased with the result. The valve and gooseneck are slightly more open than the standard Bach equivalent.

IIRC he mentioned the resistance was ‘just right’ in the trigger range, obviously a subjective point and maybe not everyone’s preference.

I believe Mike Svoboda plays a Rapp horn with this valve and wrap design btw., there are some of examples of him playing it on YouTube.

[Floridatrombonekenneth]

I think the OP was talking about modern "rotary" valves.

Yes, such a conversion is absolutely do-able. In the photo is one example that I have done. This was a Bach 42G, that had a complete overhaul, including replacing the factory valve with one of my M&W rotors. Contrary to widely held belief, a traditional wrap, on a modern rotary valves plays great! Not at all "stuffy". The valve itself is much more important to how the horn plays than the wrap geometry.

I've also done such work on Conn 88H and Bach 50 bass trombones.

WOW! That is amazing!

how much did you change besides the valve? Did you use a larger neck pipe as well?

[hornbuilder]

With projects like this, yes, the gooseneck is changed as well, to one that I make which is appropriately sized for the application. The entire bell section is disassembled, and rebuilt ensuring correct fit/zero tension/correctly parallel assemblies. Some parts are also replaced with purpose made items, since the factory made parts already start out short/incorrectly made.

[CheeseTray]

Eric (Bonearzt) put an Olsen valve on a 42 for me, similar to the one in pic he included. He did an amazing job and it plays like a dream! Exceptional work and well worth it!

[BoNeLife]

So I’m building a closed wrap 88h with a modern rotary valve. Last thing I’d be curious about is the material of the casing. Brass vs nickel.
Original 88h has nickel case, ill placing an order for a rotor in the next couple days. Im wondering if I should stick with the original material or just go with a standard brass casing.
Already ordered a new neckpipe, I prefer a lancer taper compared to the original.

[BGuttman]

I thought the casing was brass with plating. It's been a while since I pulled an 88H valve apart (and that was only once) and I could be wrong.

[BoNeLife]

I think they’re solid, I’m not sure if the plating would survive the heat of brazing the ports to the case

[Trav1s]

I have a 79H with the original wrap and a Rotax valve. I love the sound and response - everything before the conversion but better. I'd love to do similar with an 88H but would want a yellow brass bell on it.

[hornbuilder]

No valve casings are plated.

[Bonearzt]

Eric (Bonearzt) put an Olsen valve on a 42 for me, similar to the one in pic he included. He did an amazing job and it plays like a dream! Exceptional work and well worth it!

Thank you Sir!!

[BoNeLife]

Yea, back to the question. How does the casing material affect the instruments playing characteristics?

[Burgerbob]

Not a ton, I'd imagine.

[hornbuilder]

Casing material choice does make a difference. Just like it does anywhere else on the instrument. Add more nickel silver into the equation, and there will be more NS characteristics in the overall sound. Sometimes it may be a financial choice though, as NS in the size required to make casings is "considerably" more expensive, and more difficult to find, than brass.

[tbonesullivan]

Casing material choice does make a difference. Just like it does anywhere else on the instrument. Add more nickel silver into the equation, and there will be more NS characteristics in the overall sound. Sometimes it may be a financial choice though, as NS in the size required to make casings is "considerably" more expensive, and more difficult to find, than brass.

I seem to recall that the Meinlschmidt Open Flow valves have a brass casing, however the stop plate is red brass. At some point in the 80s or 90s Yamaha went from Brass to Nickel Silver for their casings, at least on the professional models. No idea what motivated this change though.

[BoNeLife]

Meinlschmidt will let you customize port orientation, and material. You might just need to wait a few months

[Kbiggs]

Here are some more pics of a 42 with an Olsen (Instrument Innovations) valve. I bought the valve and tubing already assembled—I can’t remember who did the work. Graham Middleton then made the necessary adjustments so that the braces would fit my existing 42C bell.

IMG_4748.jpeg

IMG_4749.jpeg

IMG_4750.jpeg

IMG_4751.jpeg

[hornbuilder]

Meinlschmidt will let you customize port orientation, and material. You might just need to wait a few months

Yes. Mschmidt offer casings in either yellow brass or nickel silver. The nickel silver option is noticeably more expensive

[Floridatrombonekenneth]

With projects like this, yes, the gooseneck is changed as well, to one that I make which is appropriately sized for the application. The entire bell section is disassembled, and rebuilt ensuring correct fit/zero tension/correctly parallel assemblies. Some parts are also replaced with purpose made items, since the factory made parts already start out short/incorrectly made.

Awesome, thanks for answering my question!

[WGWTR180]

I think the OP was talking about modern "rotary" valves.

Yes, such a conversion is absolutely do-able. In the photo is one example that I have done. This was a Bach 42G, that had a complete overhaul, including replacing the factory valve with one of my M&W rotors. Contrary to widely held belief, a traditional wrap, on a modern rotary valves plays great! Not at all "stuffy". The valve itself is much more important to how the horn plays than the wrap geometry.

I've also done such work on Conn 88H and Bach 50 bass trombones.

This is the nicest thing I've seen in awhile! Ergonomics and function!!! Always wondered what my Holton project that you did would've been with a closed wrap. Hmmmmmmm
P.S. The pic appears to be missing-scroll up!!

[Rrova]

This is not directly related to the original post, but somewhat related. When my trumpet playing son first saw my closed-wrap 42B he thought it looked so good! My son younger, who now plays that 42B, thinks all modern open wraps looks too plain! Its just amusing that kids really like the look of the closed wraps! Oh yeah, he also digs the x-wraps as well!

[hornbuilder]

This complete new build just left for Spain. 322-1Y-Y. 1 piece yellow brass bell with soldered French Bead. All yellow brass handslide. This was a hard one to send out!!

[Tomnormann]

The new O'Malley (Chicago) trombones are essentially a vintage instrument with modern, high quality CNC machined rotors (made in-house in Chicago) and some other "modern" flair such as interchangeable leadpipes, adjusted bracing, etc. It might be just what you're looking for.

After you have now tested the first horns, what is your first impression?

[Blabberbucket]

The new O'Malley (Chicago) trombones are essentially a vintage instrument with modern, high quality CNC machined rotors (made in-house in Chicago) and some other "modern" flair such as interchangeable leadpipes, adjusted bracing, etc. It might be just what you're looking for.

After you have now tested the first horns, what is your first impression?

They play wonderfully. We have had a number of high caliber players test the horns and have received great positive feedback. It has been interesting testing out the different components and seeing what works well for different players.

We had a local player who was a student of Jay's play them. He said the gold bell with lightweight nickel handslide was as close as he's ever come to the feeling of playing Jay's lightweight gold bell 42.

[Tomnormann]

After you have now tested the first horns, what is your first impression?

They play wonderfully. We have had a number of high caliber players test the horns and have received great positive feedback. It has been interesting testing out the different components and seeing what works well for different players.

We had a local player who was a student of Jay's play them. He said the gold bell with lightweight nickel handslide was as close as he's ever come to the feeling of playing Jay's lightweight gold bell 42.

Wow! Thank you for this great news! Lucky me that ordered a gold/nickel in May last year!

[Bonearzt]

Eric (Bonearzt) put an Olsen valve on a 42 for me, similar to the one in pic he included. He did an amazing job and it plays like a dream! Exceptional work and well worth it!

Thank you Sir!!!

[BoNeLife]

Okay, finally had some time to sit down and start on it. Converting an 8h to an 88h with meinlschmidt valve and an open closed wrap. It’s just mocked up right now. I’ll finish in the next week or so. It’s ugly, but I promise it’ll look good.

[BoNeLife]

I’d post a photo if I could figure it out…. Oops

[BGuttman]

I’d post a photo if I could figure it out…. Oops

We are apparently having problems with uploading pictures. Probably have exceeded storage space for images on our server. Fixing this is above my pay grade, sorry.

If you can find an on-line "home" for your pictures, you can insert them into a post using the IMG tags:

1. Right click on the image on your screen.
2. Select "Copy Image Address" or "Copy Image URL"
3. Use IMG tags like this:

Code: Select all

[img]insert image URL here[/img]

The result will look like this:

[BoNeLife]

This probably won’t work. Here’s the link though

[BoNeLife]

Progress

[hornbuilder]

Did you move the main bell brace back ??

[BoNeLife]

I’m not sure if it’ll be able to fit when it’s all said and done. I think the hollow main bell brace helps center a horn, so we’ll see what’s up. Hopefully It will play secure enough with the tradition closed wrap bracing

[WGWTR180]

If you did move the main cross brace back means that the diamond is also back further and will change the way the bell responds.

[BoNeLife]

The main brace is placed in different spots from an 8h to an 88h.
This started out as an 8h and I moved it to the same place I moved my last one. Which has worked very well for me.

[BoNeLife]

Did you move the main bell brace back ??

I didn’t read this right the first time.
Yes I moved it because it started its life as an 8h.
I’ve moved it to the same place on my other 88 that I’ve built. Hope this makes more sense

[BoNeLife]

Okay finally had time to finish the wrap. It plays very very well. I’ll have to play test it more to see what extra bracing it may need.
It’s still a work in progress, and I’ll add a trigger