When do trombones get to improvise?

[tbdana]

I played a gig last night honoring 1959, the year that changed jazz. The concert focused on the most important albums of the year that changed jazz. So it was a great gig with great musicians. But I only got to blow on three tunes.

Why? Because the leader wanted to remain true to the instrumentation of the featured albums. And most of those albums didn't have a trombone, even back in 1959.

It got me thinking. Trombones rarely get opportunities to play jazz (and by jazz, throughout this post I mean improvised solos).

Most jazz combos don't have trombones, and never did. So, no jazz opportunities there. Most big bands have very few trombone solos, at least in comparison to saxes, trumpets and piano. And when a trombone does get to blow in a big band, the solo is usually around 16 bars. 32 bars if you're lucky. But in a big band we never get the chance to really stretch and develop a meaty solo.

Modernly, even fewer jazz combos have trombones than in 1959, and there are even fewer solos written for trombone in big bands nowadays.

So how the heck are young trombonists supposed to get the opportunity to woodshed soloing when they are almost never afforded a solo, especially one where they can stretch and develop it? I mean, there are crappy jam sessions with struggling musicians, and there are practice tracks, but where are both the gigs and rehearsal bands where trombones get even a fraction of the opportunities that sax and trumpet players get all night long?

[Doug Elliott]

When I was in the Airmen of Note we played at the UNC Greeley Jazz Festival. NO trombone solos - none.
After the concert Buddy Baker came up to me and said "What's with no trombone solos? It makes it look like you all suck" (or something to that effect).
It was like that the whole time I was in, which is a major reason I got out.
When I brought up that subject, the answer I got was "Get your kicks elsewhere."
Seriously.

[EriKon]

The reply is as simple as it is sad:
Make your own gigs.

I started to accept that trombone is not a classic sideman instrument in jazz, so I won't wait for those opportunities. You have to create your own opportunities and groups where you can play as much as you want. This is very similar to other unusual instruments in jazz (like violin, flute, harp, you name it) and the same as vocalists. Vocalists always have to do their own stuff otherwise they won't play/sing. At least we have big bands and a solo there every now and then. And in most bigbands where I play, I'll try to organize a decent trombone solo spot if there is a rehearsal or soundcheck. Usually no one is angry at you when the sixth tenor solo is switched to a trombone solo instead. At least I haven't had that happen so far.

[BrianAn]

Echoing what Erik said: you just have to lead your own stuff. Very few people are going to hire a trombone as a sideperson in a straight ahead jazz setting. Most of the gigs where I get to blow a lot are my own (hell, most of my gigs in general are my own.) I’m happy with that though; I get to choose the players and the tunes, keep myself busy, and blow as long as I like.

Before I was booking my own gigs, I got most of my improvising through jam sessions, which are not always “crappy” with “struggling musicians” (although that certainly can be the case), and also a big band where the director was aware I was interested in blowing and gave me space to do so. Without the chance to blow in a big band, I guess the next best thing is playing jam sessions, and if those are unsatisfactory, time to book your own gigs.

In regards to the big band thing, I’m guessing composers and bandleaders just assume trombonists are not interested so don’t ask or give them solo spaces. I’ll admit that’s not the most outlandish assumption, but you’re right that they should be given the chance. Never hurts for them to ask or chord changes in everyone’s part.

[BGuttman]

I think this is something like the "chicken or egg" situation. The advent of Bop started the "stream of notes" style of soloing, which is not easy or characteristic of a trombone. Yes, some guys managed to do it, but very few. Some started using valve trombones. So solos became un-trombonistic and hence trombones didn't take solos.

Also, you had soloists like Charlie Parker who would go on for chorus after chorus. In the Swing Era bands the solos were one chorus only, and there was room for the trombone to take one every so often.

The Trad Jazz standard was for everybody to take one chorus between tutti sections. For that matter, there was a lot of improvisation by the trombone behind the soloists playing countermelodies or background lines.

[AndrewMeronek]

If you look at much of the jazz ensemble literature, yeah, there's not much for trombone features. Not really. In a typical 2-set gig, a trombone solo might happen once in 20-30 tunes, whereas a trumpet, piano, or sax solo happens on pretty much every tune.

Also: many trombonists tend to not be very good at using mics (they're behind the bell and hard to see while playing) and a lot of sound engineers also aren't very good at mic'ing trombones.

[tbdana]

When I was in the Airmen of Note we played at the UNC Greeley Jazz Festival. NO trombone solos - none.
After the concert Buddy Baker came up to me and said "What's with no trombone solos? It makes it look like you all suck" (or something to that effect).
It was like that the whole time I was in, which is a major reason I got out.
When I brought up that subject, the answer I got was "Get your kicks elsewhere."
Seriously.

This really surprises me. One would think the Airmen of Note would be well acclimated to trombone solos, with guys like you, and Dave Steinmeyer before you. I mean, didn't Dave throw that door wide open? Why did they close it? What a waste of the wonderful talent they had in that band. Too bad.

[JohnL]

Trombone is marginalized in most musical genres (if it's present at all). Why should jazz be any different?

You pretty much have to make your own opportunities, because no one else is going to do it for you.

Oh, and if you do form you own group, be careful when choosing the other band members. If you aren't, you could end up on the outside looking in.

[tbdana]

Oh, and if you do form you own group, be careful when choosing the other band members. If you aren't, you could end up on the outside looking in.

Sounds like there's a story connected to that comment. Care to share?

[JohnL]

Sounds like there's a story connected to that comment. Care to share?

Not my story. Just one I've heard more than once...

[TomInME]

I just want to vent about how stupid it is to have the "trombone feature where the whole section improvises down the line". I see this about once every 7 years, it's the only time I have any changes at all, and you want me to play AFTER the first, second, and third players, all of whom have far more experience at it? Have them trade fours on my chorus instead, the audience will thank you. My practice time needs to go toward things I will actually use once in a while.

If I had lots of extra time, I would work on improv just for fun and personal enrichment, but I would expect infinitesimal return on that investment in a performance context.

[bwilliams]

I just want to vent about how stupid it is to have the "trombone feature where the whole section improvises down the line". I see this about once every 7 years, it's the only time I have any changes at all, and you want me to play AFTER the first, second, and third players, all of whom have far more experience at it? Have them trade fours on my chorus instead, the audience will thank you. My practice time needs to go toward things I will actually use once in a while.

If I had lots of extra time, I would work on improv just for fun and personal enrichment, but I would expect infinitesimal return on that investment in a performance context.

The blg band I play bass trombone with has recently started this. I don't solo because I never worked on it and don't want to disrespect those who have dedicated their careers to the art of improvisation.

[BGuttman]

The Big Bands I played in had charts with solos (1 chorus each) for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd but not bass. In one band our 3rd trombone couldn't improvise so I took the 3rd solo. It's usually shorter than the 1st or 2nd -- often 4 bars shorter.

[Wilktone]

But I only got to blow on three tunes.

Wow, you got to solo three times!?

I played a three set big band gig last Monday and didn't get to blow on any tunes. Of course, I was playing lead all night and also providing the announcements, so I had a lot already on my plate. I had the chance to speak up and take a ride on a tune that got opened up, but I decided against it.

Two of the other trombonists did get the chance to solo on a tune each, but there were only 2 trombone solos all night.

Now this was a show that was specifically a Memorial Day concert, so a lot of the charts we performed were WWII era tunes or had some patriotic theme. It's the nature of a lot of shows that the focus isn't on giving the musicians artistic freedom, you're playing to the audience. I got used to this a long time ago and don't let it bother me much any longer.

Not every band leader is going to base the set list around making sure that musicians get the chance to stretch out and blow solos. When I was serving as the MD for this big band I tried to take a look at the solos written in each chart and spread around the heat, but often times the flow of the set and particular themes for the concert are going to take precedence. It helps to program a chart or three that can be opened up for additional soloists, but sometimes that can be taken too far and you end up with a chart over 10 minutes long where a few soloists blow multiple choruses. Fun for the musicians, not so much for the audience.

When I was in the Airmen of Note we played at the UNC Greeley Jazz Festival. NO trombone solos - none.

I used to have a cassette tape of the first concert I ever heard the Airmen of Note play live. It was back in January of 1993, if I recall correctly, at the Illinois Wesleyan University Jazz Festival. Dave Steinmeyer was featured on several charts, including a Bossa arrangement of "I'm Getting Sentimental Over You." I also remember a solo on "Children of the Night" that featured another trombonist, I think his name was Doug Elliott.

I'll have to see if I still have that bootleg around. Might be fun to transcribe Doug's solo and then ask him if he meant to play this or that note.

All that said, it is a drag to never be allowed a chance to take a solo on shows where the lead tenor or 2nd trumpet are blowing on every tune. Imagine being a bassist or a guitarist in a big band, those guys rarely get the chance to take solos unless charts get opened up.

Dave

[JohnL]

But I only got to blow on three tunes.

Wow, you got to solo three times!?

I had the impression that she only got to PLAY on three tunes; no solos at all.

[tbdana]

Wow, you got to solo three times!?

I had the impression that she only got to PLAY on three tunes; no solos at all.

LOL! Guess I didn't explain it very well.

The gig I was referring to was a small group gig. A jazz sextet, emulating the music of 1959. The whole concert emphasized soloing. We'd play the head, soloists took as many choruses as they wanted to, and then we'd play the head again to end. Typical jazz format. And the audience was there specifically to listen to jazz. Tickets were expensive, and the audience was sophisticated and knowledgeable. Not your typical gig. This was a "best case scenario" for soloing, and I only got 3.



We played 10 tunes that night, and I only got to play and solo on three of them. For the rest I stood off-stage and listened.

Big bands are more structured and solos are incidental rather than primary, anyway, so there will be fewer of them for everyone, and especially trombones.

But my complaint was mostly for other trombonists, and specifically young trombonists, who don't get many opportunities to learn, practice, and do when it comes to improvising. I'm in a little bit better situation in that I've already had years of opportunities during a time when there were more solos available (but still the fewest were for trombones), and currently people make it a point to let me blow, even in big bands. Last night was the first in a summer concert series for one local big band I play in, and not only did I get to solo, I had two features that were written just for me. Here's me playing one of them.



And here's what I was playing in that photo. The whole chart is 8va, with triple forte high Ebs and Fs. Challenging and fun!





So I am fortunate to have so much opportunity. My points were that (1) On that 1959 gig I played/soloed on only 30% tunes on a gig that was all about soloing for everyone, and (2) I'm very privileged in big bands in that people go out of their way to feature me and let me solo, these days. I think I had four solos and two features last night. This is great for me, but I started this thread because I know that in general trombonists don't get these opportunities, so how the heck are they supposed to develop the ability???

[AtomicClock]

(Tell the third bone to point his light down.)

[tbdana]

(Tell the third bone to point his light down.)

I know, right? And the thing is he didn't bring a light so I lent him my extra one. I tend not to use it simply because it's so easy to shine in the audience's faces, as I'm guilty of here.

[TomInME]

Usually no one is angry at you when the sixth tenor solo is switched to a trombone solo instead.

Truth!

[Wilktone]

The gig I was referring to was a small group gig. A jazz sextet, emulating the music of 1959. The whole concert emphasized soloing. We'd play the head, soloists took as many choruses as they wanted to, and then we'd play the head again to end. Typical jazz format. And the audience was there specifically to listen to jazz. Tickets were expensive, and the audience was sophisticated and knowledgeable. Not your typical gig. This was a "best case scenario" for soloing, and I only got 3.

Just to play devil's advocate, how would the band leader or promoter describe this performance? Was it promoted as "a concert emphasizing soloing" or a performance paying tribute to the seminal recordings of 1959? They are really two different things.

A themed concert, in my opinion, makes the underlying concept the feature of the performance, not the soloists. A generic club date with a combo is a different sort of experience for the audience.

Big bands are more structured and solos are incidental rather than primary, anyway, so there will be fewer of them for everyone, and especially trombones.

But my complaint was mostly for other trombonists, and specifically young trombonists, who don't get many opportunities to learn, practice, and do when it comes to improvising.

That is true, but to again play devil's advocate, didn't young trombonists during the big band era, where there were fewer and mostly incidental solos for trombone, have the same issue?

Certainly there were more gigs back then, so you'd get to play that 8 measure solo maybe a few times a week rather than once a month.

My points were that (1) On that 1959 gig I played/soloed on only 30% tunes on a gig that was all about soloing for everyone,

Well again, I think that the 1959 gig wasn't about soloing for everyone, it just happened that the theme for the concert happened to allow many of the musicians to solo and stretch out on every tune. If you're recreating the recording and it didn't have trombone on it I wouldn't expect to play on that tune.

Again, if it's a generic combo gig and you're playing the same tune but not trying to recreate something historical, that's a different animal.

(2) I'm very privileged in big bands in that people go out of their way to feature me and let me solo, these days. I think I had four solos and two features last night. This is great for me, but I started this thread because I know that in general trombonists don't get these opportunities, so how the heck are they supposed to develop the ability???

This isn't an issue just for trombonists, although I would agree that we get fewer opportunities. Every jazz musician these days is not going to have as many chances to perform and solo. The flip side is that there are more resources than ever before to help aspiring jazz musicians learn to and practice improvisation. Access to instructional materials, play-a-longs, and classic (and new) recordings are easier to get a hold of now.

In my area there are a few different jam sessions that happen on a regular basis. Some of them are very welcoming to younger and less experienced players. At the Memorial Day big band gig I mentioned above we had a high school trumpet player sitting in, which happened because he sat in on a jam session with the artistic director of the band and got invited to our show to play a few tunes with us.

You pretty much have to make your own opportunities, because no one else is going to do it for you.

Yeah, this is probably the best advice for any aspiring musician. If you want to get the chance to perform you have to go out of your way to also become a booking agent, composer/arranger, band leader, etc.