Wish I could teach - a musing

[tbdana]

I dream about teaching and helping others, but I'm my own worst enemy in that effort.

I'll be honest, I would suck if I had to teach young school kids who aren't serious about the trombone. I just don't have the temperament for it, day after day. But I would love to teach older high school and college kids, and adults, who are serious students of the horn. I think I have something to offer them, and I can partner with folks like that.

One problem is that I lack the formal education to get such a teaching gig. I never went to music conservatory. I have no degrees in music or education. So I don't qualify even for an adjunct "professor of trombone" position. I'm also not an embouchure expert, nor do I have the skills or patience to correct your fuzzy tone or your inability to single tongue. So for the vast majority of trombone students I don't have anything to offer.

But for that tiny slice of tromboneworld that has no major structural defects and is motivated to make the most out of playing, I can help them learn to play the everlovin' bejeezus out of the trombone. I have skills in identifying weak areas and turning them into strengths, and in developing custom learning programs for serious students. Problems there, too, though. Why would any of those students come to me? They wouldn't, when there are people like Joe Alessi, Steve Davis, Hal Crook, John Marcellus, and a hundred other vaunted teachers to study with.

So, I suppose I'm not really cut out for teaching, after all. Guess l will just keep plugging away at playing, and leave teaching to those with better education and temperament for it, and envying those who do it well

Anyone else wish they could teach, but lack the education and temperament for it? Is this something others have felt, or just me? ("It's just you, Dana!")

[WilliamLang]

I'd take a lesson, to be honest. One of things I've always regretted was not having a real teacher or structure at any point.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I have been a teacher for almost 40 years. To be honest with you, I don’t know how I survived because I still don’t think I have the temperament for it. My expectations of students are too high and they almost always let me down. Students can be baffling because they can take 10 to 20 times longer than I think is necessary to learn something. Actually, I don’t think a lot of career teachers have the temperament for it because we love to share our stories of misery.

I have had the privilege (possibly it was luck) to have worked with many people who are TRUE TEACHERS. Those are the people who, when in front of a student or a group of students, always find something complimentary or positive to say. Those TRUE TEACHERS just have a different perspective on things or the extreme kindness is in their blood. Those people are great role models for people like me, who are always on the edge of saying something sarcastic.

The one thing that I have learned is that, as a teacher, I should never give up on a student. I’m have seen many situations in which a student had no musical progress for multiple years……the suddenly, everything clicks and they improve rapidly. Those are great times!

[Burgerbob]

As a bad student that eventually figured it out, I quite enjoy teaching. Even the beginners that I thought I would really not enjoy- the enthusiasm they have (that the high school kids are too cool for) is absolutely infectious. And when you get a high school student to make a real sound for the first time... Nothing better.

[GabrielRice]

I do not have the training or experience to teach beginners, nor do I have the temperament to teach kids who don't know they love it yet. I'm not someone to light a fire and get a young person motivated. Having tried it a little bit years ago, I now know that about myself and don't try to get into the game of teaching in after-school lesson programs.

My wheelhouse is motivated high school, college, and graduate students, particularly in the setting of a supportive musical environment where, in addition to lessons, I can coach them in chamber music, orchestra sections, studio class settings, etc.

It took many years of building a reputation as a player for the opportunities to teach in those settings to come.

[LeTromboniste]

I do not have the training or experience to teach beginners, nor do I have the temperament to teach kids who don't know they love it yet. I'm not someone to light a fire and get a young person motivated.


...

My wheelhouse is motivated high school, college, and graduate students, particularly in the setting of a supportive musical environment where, in addition to lessons, I can coach them in chamber music, orchestra sections, studio class settings, etc.

I was going to write almost exactly the same thing.

I do enjoy working with students on solving technical issues too, although it always feels a bit daunting and frightening (what if in trying to help, I send them in a direction that's completely wrong for them?). But of course the most fulfilling part is working on the mindset and opening their horizon to musical tools that fundamentally changes how they're able to formulate and express musical ideas.

There's something really satisfying too in suggesting things that yield immediate improvements on fundamental aspects or on how they're playing that particular piece. It might sound weird but it's basically the satisfaction you feel when watching videos of people deep-cleaning a patio with a high-pressure hose.

[LeTromboniste]

All that to say, yes Dana, with the perspective you have, it seems to me like you'd be a great person for technically-sound players to visit for getting their ears and eyes and minds opened and unlocking another level. And you might discover that you even enjoy helping them solve technical issues.

[MrBill]

Dana,

One thing to consider in this- I can say from experience that education does not always make the teacher. A couple of college teachers (not music related) that I had come to mind-both with graduate degrees in their fields, both ineffective as teachers (I was not the only one who felt this way).

On the other hand (in music outside of music as well) I have learned helpful/important things from people who do not have degrees, but who do have real world experience and knowledge. To be honest, the real world experience is almost always more valuable.

Being able to evaluate and communicate in a positive way are important as well.

I've had a chance to listen to a few of your videos- you are a wonderful musician and definitely would have something to offer if you chose to.

[JeffBone44]

I don't think I would have had the patience to be a school band director. I'm inexperienced in teaching beginning students, although I taught a couple of them. I guess the main thing was to show them how to hold and handle the trombone, make a sound, read music, and be able to play some simple songs to make it fun, and I tried to do that. However, I did really well teaching intermediate level kids in middle and high school - a couple of my high school students went on to make All-State. So I guess I did a pretty good job.

[RustBeltBass]

I'll be honest, I would suck if I had to teach young school kids who aren't serious about the trombone. I just don't have the temperament for it, day after day. But I would love to teach older high school and college kids, and adults, who are serious students of the horn. I think I have something to offer them, and I can partner with folks like that.

One problem is that I lack the formal education to get such a teaching gig. I never went to music conservatory. I have no degrees in music or education. So I don't qualify even for an adjunct "professor of trombone" position. I'm also not an embouchure expert, nor do I have the skills or patience to correct your fuzzy tone or your inability to single tongue. So for the vast majority of trombone students I don't have anything to offer.

But for that tiny slice of tromboneworld that has no major structural defects and is motivated to make the most out of playing, I can help them learn to play the everlovin' bejeezus out of the trombone. I have skills in identifying weak areas and turning them into strengths, and in developing custom learning programs for serious students.

In my personal opinion, these 3 paragraphs are more of an endorsement in their own rights, than many teaching CVs, teaching philosophy statements on trombonist's websites, etc.

The shortcomings you mention to me sound like green flags and here is why:

You have a clear understanding of what you do well and areas in which you can see yourself excelling. You also have a clear idea of what you do not see yourself able to do well. That is already saying a lot about your ability to be a great teacher ! Now that you found and defined your niche, I think there is nothing wrong with marketing this and see if it is possible to find students that you feel you might be able to help. It might take time but could be very rewarding.

You might also find that as you teach, you develop the skill you say you lack, or, that you did not lack them to begin with, through "learning by doing".

[StephenK]

Code: Select all

https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/becoming-a-better-music-teacher

Maybe this might be worth a look? I've done futurelearn courses before, some are good, some not so much. I don't think you need to subscribe unless you want a certificate.

[robcat2075]

I dream about teaching and helping others...

What you are dreaming of is unrealistic.

Many musicians imagine they could teach well by teaching as they themselves were taught. After all, it worked OK for you, right?

However, the teacher you experienced at your lessons is an inadequate model. That was a teacher working with a fairly diligent student, a teacher not having to solve numerous vexing problems, musical and physical and emotional. You were the easy part of the job.

Perhaps he or she did work some miracle on you in some regard, but that one miracle is still a tiny subset of all the things that could go wrong. You haven't seen all the other miracles that other students will need.

The superior teachers have been in it long enough to have seen everything and found the solution and figured out how to teach it. It is a knowledge beyond the mere critiquing that passes for teaching in most places.

I've had nine private-lesson trombone teachers in my trombone life, in addition to numerous private-lesson teachers on other instruments. My observation is that accomplished players are rarely accomplished at explaining how they do what they do. I've said elsewhere that most of brass pedagogy is just slogans and anecdotes. For most of the would-be teachers, that is all they have for pedagogy.

I've told before of the cello festival here in Dallas where I saw many prominent cellists give "master classes" to accomplished students. Only one of them, the least-luminous of them, had clear teaching chops, a power to identify THE PROBLEM and fix it right THEN and THERE. BAM!

In another venue, consider that the greatest gymnastics coach of the 20th Century was not a significant gymnast himself and that his many medal-winning protégés did not go on to significant coaching careers.

...for that tiny slice of tromboneworld that has no major structural defects and is motivated to make the most out of playing...

AKA students on which some other teacher has already done the difficult work.

... I can help them learn to play the everlovin' bejeezus out of the trombone

Can you?

My observation after having had some very high-functioning performer-teachers is that the fact that they could play something better than i and easily prove it was not highly instructive in itself. Even If you were to teach those largely-mythical high-potential no-problem model students (or anyone else), you need instructional talent beyond being able to play the horn well.

...But I would love to teach older high school and college kids, and adults, who are serious students of the horn. I think I have something to offer them, and I can partner with folks like that.

that word "partner"

Really, you are looking for a satisfying musical situation not a teaching situation. Every teacher would love to have only the easy, eager, talented students... who don't need to be taught much.

Great teachers are serious coaches. Like a track coach who can get Larry to finally clear two hurdles in a row or the math tutor who can convince Timmy that 3/9 = 1/3. They have a comeback for every objection, a solution for every problem and... motivation for every student who is beginning to wilt.

Everyone else is just a lecturer.

So, I suppose I'm not really cut out for teaching, after all. Guess l will just keep plugging away at playing, and leave teaching to those with better education and temperament for it, and envying those who do it well

You have supposed wisely.

[WilliamLang]

I'm hoping to take a lesson, because I absolutely think it's realistic that Dana could have some unique ideas to offer.

[WilliamLang]

In fact, the cynicism here is astounding, and a large part of what keeps myself and other professionals from sharing more here.

I've never really had a teacher, I grew up in non-music family, and I grew up super poor. I was rejected from every conservatory out of high school, and by all rights and means I should have given up. I should not exist in classical music according to my story, and if I gave you my background, I would bet anything you would say I should have given up.

But I didn't give up, and I didn't have some secret talent for music. I worked hard for what I have, and I believe in people. Dana could 100% be an incredible teacher, but just because she doesn't fit the story you have in your mind of what a teacher "should be" that doesn't give you the right to dismiss her. You owe her an apology.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I agree. From the recordings that Dana has shared, I think she has a tremendous amount of wisdom to share. I can learn from just listening to her play.

The point I was trying to make at the end of my previous post was…..that teachers should never give up on students. Possibly, I should add to that - teachers should never give up on themselves either.

[GGJazz]

Hi all.

Aside teaching in Schools , Universities , etc , where a Degree may be required for employment , one can open his own Studio , to teach private lessons.
In this way , one can choose the category of students to whom he want to address .
I think that famous teachers as Louis Maggio , Donald Reinhardt , etc , was teaching in their private Studios.

Then , as for playing , in the teaching field also one have to build a solid reputation about his ability . This reputation must spread both among his colleagues , and - most important - among the students.
Of course , it takes a little while .

When I was in Boston , studying at the Berklee College , there was ( out of School) a famous ear training / theory / improvisation teacher , Charlie Banacos .
I asked for some private lessons , but there was a totally full waiting list for the next TWO years...

So , if one is very good at teaching , I think that usually the stutents will come !

Regards
Giancarlo

[LeTromboniste]

In fact, the cynicism here is astounding, and a large part of what keeps myself and other professionals from sharing more here.

I've never really had a teacher, I grew up in non-music family, and I grew up super poor. I was rejected from every conservatory out of high school, and by all rights and means I should have given up. I should not exist in classical music according to my story, and if I gave you my background, I would bet anything you would say I should have given up.

But I didn't give up, and I didn't have some secret talent for music. I worked hard for what I have, and I believe in people. Dana could 100% be an incredible teacher, but just because she doesn't fit the story you have in your mind of what a teacher "should be" that doesn't give you the right to dismiss her. You owe her an apology.

100% this.

[Savio]

I have only experience with teaching kids so it's a little limited what I can say. And I can only speak from my experience in my little corner in the world. I believe it's nearly impossible to give advice on how to teach. But one advice is to be your self and make our own experience. I teach kids and I like to be with kids, maybe because I'm a little childish my self. And yes I'm patient and understand after a while I can't make everyone a good trombone player. But I have seen many teachers with not so much patience and some do it much better than me. So I think the clue is to be ourselves.

I try to give them good routines and the basics from the beginning, and blend in a musical aspect as early as possible. Lately I have also maked them listen more to good players. I believe the talented ones will make it no matter what. If they get basics right from the start. Simple things like holding instrument, posture, embouchure/breathing, warm-up, etc. It's one thing I try to do with kids; Give them confidence no matter level, and I try not to kill the music they potentially have inside them self. At the same time be honest. Not easy.

I should wish to teach more advanced students but have no experience with that. I live in a little place so I send the talented ones to more advanced teachers if they want to go further. The move out anyway when they grow up.

I didn't have so many teachers when I grew up. But at 16-17 I got some really good players as teacher. It really gave me inspiration to just listen them play close. It gave a real kick to practice more.

Try to teach all of you, maybe you find it is something that suits you. You don't know before you have tried.

Leif

[harrisonreed]

Hot take, but when the student is ready, the right teacher will appear. Obviously not 100% true (see William Lang's remarks, at least when he was younger! I'd like to hear more about that, William!), but I think the point is that if you make yourself available to teach, Dana, you'll wind up with great students. And if you don't need to rely on it for money, you can choose who you want to work with.

Music is not one size fits all. It used to be a master / apprentice type of profession. I feel like that sometimes fits better than the lowest common denominator kind of teaching Rob was talking about. People who do well teaching high school are saints. Nor just anybody can do that, and that's okay. Highly motivated adult learners are out there who would do better with the right teacher, rather than a teacher who is great at teaching "everybody gets something out of this but nobody gets everything".

[tbdana]

A few quick responses to the above.

I, too, would love to hear more about William Lang's past. It sounds fascinating, and I actually love stories of those who defy the "should haves" in life.

Harry, I like your take on "people who do well teaching high school students are saints" and how the world has changed from the master/apprentice relationships of the past.

Thanks to those who offered kindness above, but I don't worry about what Rob says. For some reason he is always a dick to me. Every post he fires at me is filled with snarks, insults, negative judgments, and passive-aggressive barbs. So far I've just ignored him and haven't responded, though it would be so easy. And it's unfortunate, because whatever legit things he might have to say he ruins by clothing them in (sometimes veiled, sometimes open) contempt.

Leif, I resonated with you saying, "I didn't have so many teachers when I grew up. But at 16-17 I got some really good players as teacher. It really gave me inspiration to just listen them play close. It gave a real kick to practice more." I learned so very much from having the opportunity to sit next to some of the best trombonists in the world, and just listen to them. The luckiest thing in life was to not be one of those great players but still to get to play with them. Amazing. It was constant inspiration and made me practice more. But more importantly, I got to watch what those players do and observe how they approach the horn and the music in real world situations, and that was priceless experience. It taught me more than I could have ever learned in formal lessons.

Gabe said, "My wheelhouse is motivated high school, college, and graduate students, particularly in the setting of a supportive musical environment where, in addition to lessons, I can coach them in chamber music, orchestra sections, studio class settings, etc." That sounds fantastic! I'd love to get to work with that kind of student. And coaching students on how to play the music rather than just how to play the trombone is something we need a lot more of in this world. Bravo to you!

Among Rob's several cheap condemnations, he derided my use of the word "partnership." But I believe that the relationship between a motivated student and his/her teacher must be that of a partnership. It's all about helping that person get where they want to go. And that has to include not only playing the horn, but helping them play musically and make the best choices in any musical setting. Above I alluded to how much I learned getting to sit next to greats on a near-daily basis. Among the most important things I learned in that setting was how to play musically, something you don't generally get in private lessons going over Arbans and excerpts and Rochut and whatnot. (Indeed, I had more than one coach advise me not to put too much musicality into audition excerpts. But that's fodder for a separate discussion.)

[JTeagarden]

My experience is that the best teachers are not necessarily the greatest players, did Donald Reinhardt ever play at a high level? And yet his observations on embouchures are being applied still...

I would say, though that they are all good observers, and have had to work out many technical issues on their own, the hard way...

Great players in major symphonies who have side gigs at conservatories would probably come across as great teachers, on the basis of how good they themselves play, and the quality of players attracted to their conservatory, but any time I've looked (and not recently), it seemed that a surprising number of great trombone performers (orchestral and commercial) come from absolutely nowhere, in terms of the general idea of where great playerrs come from: Most of them didn't go to Eastman, Juilliard, or Curtis.

I also am not sure being super empathetic or encouraging is an absolute requirement: as noted above, be yourself, and know what you're bad at!

As regards Dana and her bedside manner, cut the poor girl just a little slack: It is hard to convey an ironic tone in writing, and my guess is all would be well if these conversations were in person.

Personally, I really like the idea of teaching, but any time I tried to do any, it was not pretty! My wheelhouses are organization, and being able to get a good balance out of an ensemble.

[tbdana]

I also am not sure being super empathetic or encouraging is an absolute requirement: as noted above, be yourself, and know what you're bad at!

I told this story before, and boy did people come out to condemn my teacher. LOL!

One day I showed up to a lesson without having practiced that week. I didn't confess it, I tried to bluff my way through. It didn't work. Roy knew right away that I hadn't practiced, so he was very hard on me. He stopped me every few notes and corrected me in increasingly harsh ways, making me go back and do it again, stopping me after a few notes again, laying into me, and repeating the pattern for the entire hour. I didn't even get through the one etude during the lesson. And he was so hard on me that I was in tears and sobbed all the way home.

But you bet I practiced my arse off the next week! And when I came back for the next lesson I completely nailed it!

Roy did his usual checking off that etude and said, "Okay, for next week do number [whatever it was]."

Not a word of praise. No "atta girl!" for how hard I'd worked or how well I'd played it. No mention of my improvement from the previous week where he had flayed me alive for an hour. Just, "Next week do this one."

"Wait a minute," I said. "I just played that piece perfectly! The difference from last week was huge! And you were so hard on me last week, don't I even get an acknowledgement of how much I improved, how hard I worked?"

Roy stared me dead in the eyes and said, "If you want compliments, go play for your mother."

I got so frustrated, and felt so humiliated and like all my effort was for nothing, I started to cry again. Roy then softened a little and explained...

"Look, my job isn't to praise you when you do something right. My job is to identify weaknesses in your playing and give you ways to fix them. Sometimes that requires me to kick you in the butt. But my job is to make you a better player, not to make you feel good. And frankly, you don't get encouragement just because you did what you were supposed to have done last week."

Okay. Harsh, but I got it.

I had hundreds of lessons with Roy, and out of all of them, those two lessons are the only ones I remember. They made the biggest impact on me, and they have stuck with me for almost forty years.

Was Roy empathetic and encouraging? Ha! No, he was an angry gorilla that took a big club to my ego.

And it was exactly what I needed in that moment.

[JTeagarden]

A really good treacher knows what makes you tick, and when "tough love" is required, in retrospect, being told where you fall short is a huge compliment, as it tells you the teacher thinks you have potential, and are tough enough to get the news straight.

[LeTromboniste]

I also am not sure being super empathetic or encouraging is an absolute requirement: as noted above, be yourself, and know what you're bad at!

I told this story before, and boy did people come out to condemn my teacher. LOL!

One day I showed up to a lesson without having practiced that week. I didn't confess it, I tried to bluff my way through. It didn't work. Roy knew right away that I hadn't practiced, so he was very hard on me. He stopped me every few notes and corrected me in increasingly harsh ways, making me go back and do it again, stopping me after a few notes again, laying into me, and repeating the pattern for the entire hour. I didn't even get through the one etude during the lesson. And he was so hard on me that I was in tears and sobbed all the way home.

But you bet I practiced my arse off the next week! And when I came back for the next lesson I completely nailed it!

Roy did his usual checking off that etude and said, "Okay, for next week do number [whatever it was]."

Not a word of praise. No "atta girl!" for how hard I'd worked or how well I'd played it. No mention of my improvement from the previous week where he had flayed me alive for an hour. Just, "Next week do this one."

"Wait a minute," I said. "I just played that piece perfectly! The difference from last week was huge! And you were so hard on me last week, don't I even get an acknowledgement of how much I improved, how hard I worked?"

Roy stared me dead in the eyes and said, "If you want compliments, go play for your mother."

I got so frustrated, and felt so humiliated and like all my effort was for nothing, I started to cry again. Roy then softened a little and explained...

"Look, my job isn't to praise you when you do something right. My job is to identify weaknesses in your playing and give you ways to fix them. Sometimes that requires me to kick you in the butt. But my job is to make you a better player, not to make you feel good. And frankly, you don't get encouragement just because you did what you were supposed to have done last week."

Okay. Harsh, but I got it.

I had hundreds of lessons with Roy, and out of all of them, those two lessons are the only ones I remember. They made the biggest impact on me, and they have stuck with me for almost forty years.

Was Roy empathetic and encouraging? Ha! No, he was an angry gorilla that took a big club to my ego.

And it was exactly what I needed in that moment.

My first teacher could be like that. He did occasionally give some compliments if it was really good, and especially if you were in a stretch of several good lessons consistently showing good progress. But mostly if it was good, it was just checked off and the next thing was assigned, and the focus was on constructive criticism rather than encouragement. And when you showed up unprepared, boy did you feel it. He'd lay into you just like you describe, stopping you every three notes to point out problems and be increasingly harsh. But the absolute worse if you tried to bluff your way through an underprepared lesson was not the times you got torn up, it was when he'd just sit at his desk or stand next to you with his arms crossed and just stare at you over his reading glasses, not moving and saying absolutely nothing as you kept messing things up, for however long it took your playing to completely fall apart, until you just had to stop and admit not being prepared, to which he'd just respond "yeah..." with a tone that said simultaneously "yeah I could tell from the first note" and "that's really disappointing and below you". That's the times you wanted to cry. And likewise, when you showed up super prepared the next time, he'd say nothing and just check it off and say "next etude".

I don't think it's a coincidence that the trombone students were the ones you could consistently find practicing at school late at night or early in the morning. I don't know that that would be the best pedagogical approach for everyone and at any level, and I know that some people just quit because they couldn't handle it, while maybe they would have flourished in a different structure. But it did give me a certain discipline and focus that I definitely needed to learn as a 17-18-19 year-old.

[mgladdish]

I feel the same way, it was one of the major factors in my decision not to go full-time as a trombonist. But spending time hanging and playing with other trombonists and talking about approaches and ideas, I could do that for days. So I guess you're not really pining for teaching per-se, but spending time with other similar-minded trombonists, whether or not they're at the same level of playing or experience.

[dukesboneman]

Not everyone is cut out to be a teacher. I`ve known some outstanding players that were absolutely terrible teachers.
I taught High School Band for 35 years in the inner city in Rochester and Buffalo, NY. you have to walk that fine line between being a hard ass on the students but also letting everyone be relaxed so you can draw the best out of either individuals or an ensemble. You , as the Teacher , have to create an atmosphere or a culture that makes the student(s) want to be the best that they can.
One single case in point. I was teaching in Buffalo and I had an exceptional Jazz Ensemble. So I contacted a friend that ran the High School portion of the Rochester International Jazz Fest. Could we perform. YES !!!
I was stoked and so were the Students. We had been performing around Buffalo a lot during that school year and they prepared. Now as we approached the Fest date, I took part of my rehearsal and talked with the Band.
We going to really put our best foot forward because we have a couple strikes against us going in.
1) We are the only Band not from the greater Rochester area
2) We are an Inner City ensemble. to some that can mean we`re not very good.
We have to bring it.
Flash forward to the day of the performance . 3 bands . we are #2
Everyone was given 15 minutes on stage to get tuned up, set up, amps adjusted, etc..
I took my Band around the corner, we warmed up, Tuned up. They were all in Dress Blacks
We took the stage , No noise, rhythm section got their stuff adjusted, 5 minutes , we`re ready to go. NO you have to wait. So they did talking very quietly .
We get announced and BANG !!! They hit like a storm. NO POP Tunes , Big Band Jazz Music. They energy was off the charts.
Not only were they prepared Musically but also their heads were in "The Game".

[tbdana]

Every time I hear the cliché about great players/terrible teachers I think of the original version of that cliché which was, "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach." And I always think that's such complete and insulting horseshit. Insulting to teachers, specifically.

[tromboneVan]

What about the cliché "there's talkers, and there's doers"?

If you want to teach, then do it.

For the record, I mean that more as encouragement to follow your passion, rather than focusing on reasons not to.

[StephenK]

Every time I hear the cliché about great players/terrible teachers I think of the original version of that cliché which was, "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach." And I always think that's such complete and insulting horseshit. Insulting to teachers, specifically.

Completely agree with that. As an aside, I know someone who trained with Ian Bousfield, probably quite early in his career. They found it difficult, basically because reportedly he couldn't explain what he did in terms of technique. Years later, he's really developed his teaching a great deal to become an eminent teacher.

[mgladdish]

Every time I hear the cliché about great players/terrible teachers I think of the original version of that cliché which was, "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach." And I always think that's such complete and insulting horseshit. Insulting to teachers, specifically.

Amen.

I don't/didn't want to teach because I knew I wouldn't be very good at it. And it's an entire profession in its own right. Being able to play well is entirely orthogonal to whether you've put the time in to teach well. Worse, the concequences for not being very good are _terrible_. You can ruin entire lifetime's of enjoyment of music if you muck it up. Yes, the flip side of the amount of enrichment doing it well can bring is fabulous, but it's a high stakes endeavour.

And @StephenK, I was on the Royal Academy's jazz course in '98 and specifically warned off from getting lessons with Ian Bousfield.

[Posaunus]

To some extent, I think good teachers are born, not made.
My wife - a highly-trained oboist - was an award-winning elementary school instrumental teacher, and many of her private oboe students (who love her) have become quite accomplished and successful. I've observed a lot of her teaching - she's a natural. Personality and ability to transmit important information while still being positive and encouraging. I could never do what she does.

[VJOFan]

Teaching is three interdependent parts: teacher knowledge, use of teaching techniques and the interface between the teacher and learner.

That is why people's teaching ability can grow over time. All three parts are learnable to a greater or lesser degree.

[Doug Elliott]

My experience is that the best teachers are not necessarily the greatest players, did Donald Reinhardt ever play at a high level?

Reinhardt went to Curtis, stopped to take a theater gig in Philadelphia for 10 years, and then went back to Curtis to finish. He also played bass trombone in the NY Phil for one season during WWII.

[sf105]

In my day job engineers traditionally got promoted to management and there's lots of advice about how this is a switch rather than a promotion. Your senior engineer just became a junior, unskilled manager.

Playing and teaching are two different jobs that both have their own skills. My head of brass had been a child virtuoso and just didn't understand why students made mistakes -- what was the point? But for senior students he could grow their interpretation because he'd done everything. I suspect that some of the best teachers are the ones who've been through crises because they've had consciously work out how to do it.