Would like your ideas!

[Iplaytrombonetoo]

Hi all
I'm leading a 'Little Big Band' with a crooner vocalists- e.g. we're playing big band charts (custom arrangements) , but the band is rhthym section, alto & tenor saxes and trumpet & trombone.

I play lead bone in a different big band, on a 1935 Conn Vocabell trombone with a Marcinkiewicz ET1.7 mouthpiece which really zings in the high register. (The blending in our trombone section is err, unusual, so it seems to work ok)

But in the 'little big band' I'm trying to cover a wide range of the trombone parts as there are often low register notes that are integral to the pieces (think Buble's Feeling Good or Cry Me a River, others as well) - and I'm just struggling to get a good tone quality out of the peashooter at that register, with that combination.

I have a Conn 88H, which I normally play with a Shilke 51D ,but that's quite a heavy, dark blow for jazz.

I also have a Holton TR181 bass trombone, but I don't think that will work too well

Just wondering if I should swap the mouthpiece out on the pea shooter or the Conn 88H, or if I should even be looking for a different trombone. (I'd have to look for something used as I have a budget of about £600 I can spend on something and it's not always easy to find good used trombones where I live, certainly nothing I can test drive easily). Or maybe I just need a lot more practise still!!

Anyways, I welcome your thoughts? Thank you!

[stewbones43]

As you quote your budget in £s, I assume you are in the UK.

I have for sale an unusual trombone. It is a Besson 737 made in the USA. After some research here on the Trombone Chat and elsewhere, I have verified that it is actually a King 607F (3BF with a straight bell brace), i.e. a 0.525in bore, 8in yellow brass bell Bb/F trombone. It is in immaculate, as new condition with a Besson 7C mouthpiece and an original, pro level SKB case.

The King 607F is now listed as a professional level model on the King website, having replaced the 3BF model, and is listed at approx. £2500.

I am looking to get £1000 for it.

PM me if interested.
Cheers

Stewbones43

[BGuttman]

Point of information: 607 is comparable to 3B+ (2125) not 3B. The 607 replaces the old 2125F, which was discontinued about a decade ago. The smaller 3B is still current.

[hyperbolica]

You could hire a bass bone player - works as a bari sax and a trombone.

Short of that, yeah, you need a 525 that plays on the small side. Which means a 607. Perfect horn for what you're looking for, since you probably won't find a 3bf+ just sitting around in some shop.

[MStarke]

With your existing stable I would see following options:
- If the arrangements allow, play some tunes on the Vocabell AND some on the bass. Obviously that only works well if the arrangements don't constantly change between lead/high tenor and bass within a few bars. I personally find that switching between small tenor and bass can be relatively easy to learn and is a really helpful skill
- See if you can do it on your 88h. I personally find the 88h comparably "adaptable" for a large bore and the characteristics can be influenced quite a bit by mouthpiece choice. If you go to a shallower mouthpiece, you might get much more clarity and focus, but might still be able to play the low parts convincingly. Not perfect, but it might work for you

Otherwise get a medium bore as others suggested.

[tbdana]

Hm. So you're playing on a 44H with a Jiggs Whigham mouthpiece and you're not getting the response in the lower register that you want, so you're thinking of using another mouthpiece or another horn entirely in order to be able to pop those lower notes.

I have two thoughts (and I'm assuming that these lower notes aren't in the trigger range or you'd have mentioned that):

1. Any reason you can't bring two horns to the gigs and pop onto that 88H or bass bone for the tunes or sections of tunes where you encounter the lower register notes? If your 51D is too dark for the band, perhaps swap it out for a brighter Bach 6 1/2AL or something closer to what you're already playing?

2. This isn't really a horn/mouthpiece problem, it's a player problem. Yeah, you're on a pea shooter, and of course the tone in the low register won't have the weight and depth a big horn can give it. But you should still be able to make those notes sing, just with a brighter sound than a bigger horn will give you, which frankly suits the idiom anyway. I'll note that in the 1940s everyone played those notes on pea shooters.

The mouthpiece you're using is actually a little wider and deeper than the one I use on my small bore horn, and I have no problem in that range (though my small bore horn is bigger than yours). I suspect you just don't play in that range often enough on your pea shooter, so you're not acclimated to it on that horn. That's a common phenomenon. Perhaps woodshedding in that range would solve your problem. After all, dudes back in the "crooner days" made those notes work on small horns and small mouthpieces; no reason you can't, too. (And this is where I go into my lecture about how every time we have difficulty we try to get a quick fix with an equipment change when it's really musician problem.)

[BGuttman]

I want to echo Dana's 2nd point. I played a 44H with a 4C mouthpiece and could get from low E to D 5 lines above the bass staff. You have to play exercises in the entire range to get facility.

Now if the parts go below low E, an F-attachment is really necessary (unless you have a strong Falset register).

[Iplaytrombonetoo]

Thanks all! Helpful. That's why I asked here. I'm not a pro or anything, despite playing in several bands, so I suspect I may need to just practise more

I should say, in my defense, I'm not someone who goes through horns or mouthpieces like water to get a different sound. I try and work with the tools I have. I've had the Vocabell for 35 years now (and have been playing on the mouthpiece for around 10 years), the 88H for 27 years, playing on the Shilke mouthpiece for about 17 years, and the bass trombone for 7 years and the same mouthpiece (Shilke 58) since I got the horn (I play bass bone for a brass band, I actually played bass bone parts on the 88H until I found a bass trombone in the price range I could convince my husband was reasonable ;-D )

In some gigs, it's fine for me to bring 2 horns, but we're playing a music festival (big gig for us) this summer where dragging two horns long distances would be a proper PITA. I might see if I can find a 6 1/2 AL for a reasonable price and try that out. Or I might just woodshed. Or both.
Thanks!

[AndrewMeronek]

4-horn jazz bands can be tons of fun and also very challenging. In terms of equipment and heavily depending on your library, I'd seriously think about doubling:

small tenor
bass

where the "small tenor" is still a well-balanced horn with great high and low range; and the bass is a true bass trombone also with good high range, and not a slide tuba.

But then again, I'm OK with switching horns; I've done it many times, usually in musical theater pit orchestras. For someone who may not be as comfortable switching, the "small tenor" is the way to go. IMHO. Besides jazz, 4-horn bands can end up covering a HUGE variety of music, from Barry Manilow covers to Earth Wind & Fire to ballroom waltzes and polkas. Anything that is designed to strengthen a modern specialization (like "dark" cranking on Mahler or Urbie Green high range sweetness) just won't cut it.

[GabrielRice]

The 51D was designed to be a euphonium mouthpiece. I think you can liven up that 88H with a different mouthpiece - a 51 or 51C4, or maybe a different brand entirely.

[Iplaytrombonetoo]

4-horn jazz bands can be tons of fun and also very challenging.

It is properly fun and challenging indeed.

Thanks all for the advice, appreciate it. Lots of food for thought.