North Dakota State University- Assistant Prof Trombone

[Vegasbound]

Full details

https://prd.hcm.ndus.edu/psc/recruit/EM ... stingSeq=1&

[tbdana]

Man, it just bugs me when a full-time job paying only $52,000 requires a doctorate as part of its minimum qualifications. You can't live on that, especially with a family, and it's in North Dakota so its not as if you'll be getting much playing work or have career advancement opportunities. What's the point of spending all that money and all those years in school for a doctoral degree if you're going to be on food stamps your whole life?

Here in California a high school dropout fast-food worker can make almost that much.

[ghmerrill]

What's the point of spending all that money and all those years in school for a doctoral degree if you're going to be on food stamps your whole life?

Some of those questions I can address on the basis of experience (though not from the perspective of any music-associated perspective) ...

You actually can live on $52,000 -- just not in certain areas. And that's an "entry level" job. And there are other benefits. Note the reference to tuition waivers for employees, spouses/partners, and dependents. If you get to the right level as an academic, it's often the case that your children can then attend the school tuition-free. And that can be a huge benefit. Salary isn't everything -- and in fact for most academics, isn't even the primary thing. (To be sure, the overall benefits don't compare to what's available in business and industry for similar levels of background and skill -- including the "superb retirement plan" ) Also, I notice the absence of any statement that this position is tenure-track. So probably it's not?

Anyhow, people who want these jobs are (a) pursuing some sort of vision/dream, and see the path they need to take, and (b) are mostly focused on achieving the kind of security that tenure provides as they ascend the academic food chain (leaving aside a whole variety of issues involving tenure both historically and how it's being approached by universities nowadays). Sometimes you have to compromise things like income in order to pursue your dream and ideals. Sometimes you can manage that for a lifetime, and sometimes you change your perspective. But the chance to grab the gold ring of tenure on the academic merry-go-round and achieve that totally safe and secure job for the rest of your life -- well, that's pretty attractive to a lot of people (illusionary though it may be in a lot of circumstances, particularly now).

Now the question of "What's the point of spending all that money and all those years in school?" is (as an attorney, I'm sure you'll recognize) a complex question. All those years in school? Well, that's part of the effort and commitment you're willing to put in to achieve the reward. All that money? ... Uh ... well ... THAT is an entirely different question and I have no answer for it. My graduate degrees cost me nothing (except the effort). In fact, for graduate school I thought I'd finally landed in the (relative, at least) lap of luxury. At least I could afford to live and eat on a regular basis, and without holding down a half-time job while taking a demanding full course load. Graduate school was a relief and a breeze. My fellow graduate students, for the most part, felt the same way.

That being said, at that point in time (yes, even decades and decades ago), the American Philosophical Association REQUIRED every graduate department to provide each student with a letter that -- in the most discouraging tone possible -- described the existing and projected situation for a post-Ph.D. academic career in the discipline. And students needed to pay attention to that. Do music schools do the same sort of things about potential careers? I don't know.

There's nothing wrong with pursuing those dreams -- in a realistic way -- and putting in that effort and suffering some degree of discomfort/pain; no more than striking out on your own and foregoing the whole doctorate route in a different direction. But hey ... despite a lot of my own goals and feelings, I was never ultimately a good fit for academia (except for the teaching, which I loved), and ended up just walking out of a tenured career at some point (in part on the basis of wanting something else, in part on the basis of economics, and in part on disillusion and discomfort with the overall academic environment after all that time).

And, you know, some people seem okay with being on food stamps (or roughly the equivalent of that) for their whole lives. Different strokes ...

Here in California a high school dropout fast-food worker can make almost that much.

And in California, the fast-food worker needs to make that much. So maybe California isn't a good target destination for the sort of cost/career in question. But North Dakota? A bit different.

[LetItSlide]

I grew up right across the river from Fargo, where NDSU is located. Orville "Orv" Eidem was the head honcho in the NDSU low brass and band program, and his son, Bruce, with whom I played in the local youth symphony, went on to become a top pro trombonist in New York. Bruce would be pushing 70 now, and I wonder what he's up to.

Fargo-Moorhead is about as boring a community as can be. The winters are long, cold and windy, with plenty of snow. Not a terrible place to raise kids, especially if you want your kids to be hockey players, or if you like snowmobiles and cross-country skiing.

This community sits in the fertile and very flat Red River Valley, which is a pretty special place with unique geological history. It's not all bad.

The average home price there is now around $305k. The house where I spent the first 5 years of my life is $245,300 on Zillow.

While I haven't visited there often since I left in 1990, I believe I have a pretty clear picture of what it might cost to live there, and what life would be like on a $52,000 salary.

Despite the decent benefits package, it would be pretty tight, especially if raising a family.

Whoever gets this gig in the frozen tundra of eastern North Dakota, God bless 'em.

[LetItSlide]

What other NDSU employees make: https://openpayrolls.com/rank/highest-p ... university

[ghmerrill]

I just did the calculations for my own initial salary -- for a tenure-track Assistant Professor position as a newly minted Ph.D. in philosophy in 1974 -- adjusted all that for costs/inflation and cost of living between Fargo and Chicago (which is where my job was) and it came out that my starting salary (thus adjusted) was a bit better than the one being offered in Fargo -- but not by much. And my job was in a private university rather than a public one.

Also, I took a look at the current salaries for current initial Assistant Professor appointments in philosophy, and they're pretty much in line with this (for a location like Fargo and for a more or less "average" candidate that the big schools aren't fighting over).

It's a bit low, but it's not surprising, given all that.

It's hard to have a high average salary in a domain which has many more "qualified" people than openings for jobs, where the "market" has been flooded with "companies" that are all providing similar products to the "consumers", and where every "division" in the company is competing with the others for students (er ... I mean ... "consumers").

[Floridatrombonekenneth]

What's the point of spending all that money and all those years in school for a doctoral degree if you're going to be on food stamps your whole life?

Not sure what experiences you are to base that statement on, but they aren't mine. I got paid to get my doctorate. I was planning on moving to Tallahassee (FSU) regardless, and instead of freelancing for three years without a doctorate at the end, I freelanced for three years, studied with one of my mentors, and most importantly, got paid to get a doctorate. Most people getting doctorates are getting a stipend of some kind or at least a scholarship.

BTW, my wife also has a doctorate in music, and neither of us has ever had to apply for food stamps.

I'm sure you were being hyperbolic, but that is a competitive posting that a lot of hard-working trombonists (who might be on this forum) are going to apply for. (Fast) Food for thought.

[LetItSlide]

If things are the way they used to be in that community (not even 250,000 people, I think), the person who gets this position at NDSU will almost automatically have a chair in the Fargo-Moorhead symphony. Since you would have landed this faculty job, word would already be out that you are in town and it would be probably be assumed that you're going to play in the symphony.

In the 1970s and 1980s, the local symphony was not of a high quality and they were paid low part-time wages. Since it is not a professional full-time orchestra, you don't have the competition of people coming in from around the country to compete for chairs.

Fargo-Moorhead also has an opera company -- again, not of the highest quality, but they have it.

With these two groups, you're going to make money to cover slide lube and cheesecloth and that's about it.

But, you would have a chance to play the symphonic and opera repertoire in live performances, albeit with a mix of music faculty, local "civilian" players, and the better college players.

For someone who wants to compose and arrange, the long winters and being in an environment where there are two universities and a private college, all with music departments, that person would have few distractions and ample opportunities to get their music played by local musicians.

[ghmerrill]

So actually, if you can handle that degree of income and the North Dakota winters, this wouldn't be a bad "first job" -- possibly up through the tenure step (six years?) -- and then move on. Unless you get to like living in North Dakota and decide to stay (which I personally wouldn't have ruled out, but my wife wouldn't tolerate ).

Not at all an unusual young academic scenario, especially in the arts and humanities.

[LetItSlide]

We had those who initially took such positions, and soon left, and those who stayed for life. In the lifer category, Russell Pesola, J. Robert Hanson and Orville Eidem come to mind (all brass players).

Dr. Pesola was the long-time Concordia College band director and trumpet professor.
Dr. Hanson was the conductor of the Concordia College Orchestra and the Fargo-Moorhead Symphony, and trumpet professor.
Mr. Eidem was the director of the NDSU Wind Symphony (the jazz and marching bands, too, I believe), and was a low brass professor.

These excellent musicians were huge influences for any of the local aspiring brass students. They did a lot of good and were very kind to me. Two of them had sons who became professional musicians.

[bus2]

Orv Eidem was legendary, he was known well beyond North Dakota.

One thing about tenure-track positions, they are generally 9-month contracts over a year's time. Summer vacation and close to a month off between semesters.

This would be an amazing job for the right person.

[ghmerrill]

One thing about tenure-track positions, they are generally 9-month contracts over a year's time. Summer vacation and close to a month off between semesters.

I don't recall getting a month off between semesters, but times have changed.

There are often (usually?) opportunities for teaching classes during the summer as well -- which can enhance your income. However, since there are typically fewer classes offered then, there may be "competition" among faculty for those teaching jobs, and so not everyone who wants to may get a summer job. Also, the full pallette of courses is not offered during the summer. In my experience, however, the summer jobs generally went to junior faculty because the senior faculty didn't need them and weren't interested.

I do have to say that one I left the university, then (even having been tenured faculty at that point), I never worried about salary/income/benefits again. In fact, in some respects the difference was shocking. But I also wasn't a musician.