Teach me about embouchures

[tbdana]

The vast majority of the regulars here know far more about this than I do. I want to learn more.

My philosophy has always been to set the mouthpiece in one spot on my chops and leave it there no matter the range or other demands on it, with only very slight adjustments in pivot and lower lip that don't affect mouthpiece placement. And to use only the minimum amount of mouthpiece pressure necessary to maintain a seal, and no more. In fact, sometimes I pull the mouthpiece off enough that air starts to leak a little bit, so that I know I'm not using too much pressure.

This has worked for me, but I don't have the knowledge to understand the mechanics of it, whether my technique is "proper," or whether some other approach might work better for me.

I've heard of the Pivot System but am not familiar with it beyond its most basic principles. I've heard of different mouthpiece placements. I've heard of different ways of playing high notes and low notes. And I've heard a million takes on equipment as affecting playing ability. But I'm not fluent in any of them.

Is there a "correct" embouchure? If not, is it a free-for-all, and anything goes? What should I know?

[ssking2b]

Here is a video i did a couple of years ago about embouchure:

[BGuttman]

Donald Reinhart wrote a heavy tome about embouchure. We have Doug Elliott who studied under him, and Dave Wilken who studied under Doug. Embouchure is a big subject and I doubt anybody is going to cover it in depth on a board like this. Still, good luck.

[JTeagarden]

Doug is your man!

[Burgerbob]

https://wilktone.com/?page_id=5619

[Doug Elliott]

I've offered before and you didn't respond.

[kbryson]

In the interest of providing a variety of perspectives I've linked Dion Tucker's informative video about his embouchure before and after focal dystonia. The basic summary is that he is now incredibly efficient with his playing. I don't know how this approach might interact with the pivot system, but as he says in the video its more about exploring efficiency, not ineffectiveness.

[Savio]

Lots of videos on youtube about this. I'm not sure it's wise to follow all since we are all different. And there are different types of embouchures that might need different approaches.
I teach young kids and admit I don't know much about it to make any statements.

But here is a video which maybe give some ideas. But again it might not be suitable for all.
It's James Markey take on it;

https://youtu.be/B_7uclx_2Fg?si=pBYwXY2VhTCDNDlT

My teacher's never told much about it, and I don't say much to the kids. Only make a "Mm" and try not to blow out the cheek. Not so helpful advice....Maybe best to ask Doug.

Leif

[AndrewMeronek]

Just to add another relevant link that is not from one of our resident experts:



Yes, this is not just a trombone thing.

[Wilktone]

Is there a "correct" embouchure? If not, is it a free-for-all, and anything goes? What should I know?

Not intending to sound flippant, by why do you want to know? How I would answer this question depends on what your goals in learning more are. Do you simply want to improve your own playing? Do you want to update your teaching? Do you want to be able to offer better advice to folks online? Are you just curious and find the topic interesting? Something I haven't thought about? A combination of several reasons?

Here is a video i did a couple of years ago about embouchure:

As has been noted, there are some embouchure techniques that depend on the player's anatomy and can be completely different from someone else's embouchure technique. Philips' video above covers some stuff that I think could apply to pretty much everyone, regardless of their embouchure type. There's also a lot in this video about the interaction between breathing and tonguing with the embouchure. It's a good intro into these topics, but you won't learn about different embouchure types.

By the way, Philip, I would guess your embouchure type to be Reinhardt IIIA/Elliott "Very High Placement Type." It's probably the most common of the basic brass embouchure types.

Donald Reinhart wrote a heavy tome about embouchure.

Donald S. Reinhardt (note the spelling of his last name) wrote a couple of books about brass embouchure technique. The earlier ones, the "Pivot System Manual" (one for trumpet and one for trombone) offer a snapshot of how Reinhardt was thinking about at that time. Keep in mind that he altered his ideas and change his approach over time, so his later book (that I think Bruce is referring to) is the "Encyclopedia of the Pivot System." The book contains chapters on posture, breathing, tonguing, and embouchure technique and reflects how Reinhardt was teaching at that time. And Reinhardt continued to experiment and adjust his thinking afterwards too. Some of his former students will forget this and take the Encyclopedia as the final word on, but that misses the whole point of describing an approach as "scientific" in the first place.

I also generally don't recommend this book unless you've already got a handle on brass embouchure types. Reinhardt's definitions and categorizations are very detailed, but that level of detail makes it more difficult to grasp the concepts. The organization of this book is also put together like an FAQ and topics don't often directly flow from one to another in a manner that helps you put the concepts together into the whole. That said, if you're willing to put in the work to read and reread carefully, there's some fantastic info in there.

https://wilktone.com/?page_id=5619

I appreciate the plug, Aiden.

I put together that resource primarily for teachers who want to learn more about brass embouchure technique. Maybe some players who are looking to improve their own playing can benefit from reading through it, but I generally don't recommend that.

And keep in mind that this is my take on Doug's take on Reinhardt's take on things. Every once in a while I'll go through it and try to fix or clarify something in there, which is why I wanted to put this together as an online resource, rather than print or just video. It's easier to update as I learn more.

In the interest of providing a variety of perspectives I've linked Dion Tucker's informative video about his embouchure before and after focal dystonia. The basic summary is that he is now incredibly efficient with his playing. I don't know how this approach might interact with the pivot system, but as he says in the video its more about exploring efficiency, not ineffectiveness.

Now I have not had a chance to observe Tucker's embouchure before his difficulties, however what he describes is common among players who unconsciously type switch. Players can "get away" with this for a while, often sounding very good, until it breaks down completely. In his video Tucker says, "I've always been a pretty natural player and thought the years I've never had any teachers switch up my embouchure and tell me a specific way that I had to play. . . I figured as long as I'm getting the results that I intend everything must be functioning properly."

I personally would not describe the functioning brass embouchure as Tucker does in his video. I think there are other characteristics that he's leaving out that are more important and that being aware of those things would help type switching players much more efficiently than trying to make the embouchure function with the same "thought patterns" as when we speak.

Tucker's embouchure type is harder for me to guess, maybe because he's still type switching a bit. Maybe Reinhardt Type IIIB (Elliott type "Medium High Placement") but at times he looks like a IIIA to me.

But here is a video which maybe give some ideas. But again it might not be suitable for all.
It's James Markey take on it;

Markey's video has some similarities to Philip's above in that he offers some general information that's good for pretty much everyone (stable corners, flat chin), but he also suggests a mouthpiece placement that while common, isn't correct for everyone. When Markey talks about "pivot" he's referring to something different from what Reinhardt meant by the term in his books, so don't get confused there.

Personally, I don't discuss mouthpiece placement with beginning students, particularly younger ones. Instead, I emphasize holding their instruments correctly and having consistently good posture. How we hold our instruments up to the lip has a big effect on the embouchure and doing so consistently helps a student find their best mouthpiece placement on their own. Left to their own devices, many students will gravitate towards what works - unless they've been told that their placement needs to be somewhere particularly.

I think that Markey also has a IIIA/Very High Placement embouchure type.

Just to add another relevant link that is not from one of our resident experts:

Be aware that Glenn Libman describes Reinhardt's approach in terms that might reflect how Reinhardt taught at the time that Libman studied, but do not reflect what I understand about it (including from reading the Encyclopedia of the Pivot System). For example, Libman's descriptions of what Reinhardt meant by "pivot" seem to be more in line with what Reinhardt wrote early in his career, not in the Encyclopedia. I think Libman also may be mixing up some details when he described free buzzing as working against upstream players (free buzzing is *great* for upstream players, but buzzing into the instrument is not).

Lots of videos on youtube about this. I'm not sure it's wise to follow all since we are all different. And there are different types of embouchures that might need different approaches.

Yes, exactly. Which is why...

Doug is your man!

I've offered before and you didn't respond.

If anyone is serious about learning brass embouchure technique, whether it's to become a better player or a better teacher I think the first step is taking lessons from someone like Doug, who can help you put this information into the proper context for you personally. Once you've experienced and learn about how your own embouchure functions correctly it's easier to apply the additional knowledge and put it into a proper context for other musicians.

Dave

[tbdana]

Is there a "correct" embouchure? If not, is it a free-for-all, and anything goes? What should I know?

Not intending to sound flippant, by why do you want to know? How I would answer this question depends on what your goals in learning more are. Do you simply want to improve your own playing? Do you want to update your teaching? Do you want to be able to offer better advice to folks online? Are you just curious and find the topic interesting? Something I haven't thought about? A combination of several reasons?

Well, I'm always looking to improve my own playing, of course, but I'm loathe to make substantive changes because I've worked pretty hard and think I'm doing okay, and I don't want to screw up my progress by changing things unless I discover a problem. And so far, I'm not having problems, so it's not like I'm looking to fix things. And I'm not teaching. Of course I want to avoid offering bad advice online. There's enough of that in the world. But I do want to know what the heck I'm talking about.

So, I guess I want to know more simply because it's important, and I want to know important things about playing the trombone. In my pea brain, embouchure is the whole enchilada. As most here know, I don't believe in fixing problems by changing equipment. My philosophy has been, "Everything important happens before the mouthpiece." So the more I can learn about it, the better. One question that is foremost is, "If I learn more about embouchures will my philosophy be supported, or will I learn that I'm wrong and have to formulate a different approach?"

But I also have a practical interest. An auto accident left me with slight paralysis of the muscles that control the right side of my lip, which has had an effect on my low register. And while I've managed, if I can learn something to help that, I'd love to know. That's not foremost, but it's always in the back of my mind.

Mostly, I just have questions I'd like answers to: While I feel pretty good about my own approach, is it correct? Did I stumble on the "right" way? Or is there no right way at all, and like so many other things it's all individual? Am I still doing it wrong, but managing to play okay anyway? Is all this analytical stuff I hear about merely academic (like the charts showing 52 slide positions or what have you), or is there something vital I'm missing? I simply don't know. I feel like a baseball player who can swing a bat and hit home runs, but doesn't really know the mechanics of it.

Finally, since I started playing again 22 months ago, my interests are evolving. At first, I cared only about trying to play a two-octave scale. As my playing improves, my interests are less about trombone survival, and I'm raising my head and looking around, and trying to understand more.

So, there you go. Those are the dim thoughts motivating my question.

If anyone is serious about learning brass embouchure technique, whether it's to become a better player or a better teacher I think the first step is taking lessons from someone like Doug, who can help you put this information into the proper context for you personally. Once you've experienced and learn about how your own embouchure functions correctly it's easier to apply the additional knowledge and put it into a proper context for other musicians.

I'm just not sure about this. My thinking is that maybe one or two lessons from you or Doug would be informative as to my own embouchure, but probably wouldn't give me the general survey I'm looking for. I'm more about the book learnin' than diagnostics.

[Wilktone]

Dana, if you want to meet up via video chat and talk chops I'm happy to do so. I can take you through the roughly 60 minute presentation I've already put together to go over embouchure basics and would also be happy to watch you play and tell you what I see and hear, for what that's worth.

[Doug Elliott]

"I don't believe in fixing problems by changing equipment"

Everything I do in both mouthpieces and teaching is much more about avoiding future problems.

" one or two lessons from you or Doug would be informative as to my own embouchure, but probably wouldn't give me the general survey I'm looking for. "

It all applies to the "general survey" if that's your interest. One or two lessons is the norm for me. Although I had about 100 lessons with Reinhardt over a 10 year period.

[sf105]

Does anyone know anything about The Embouchure Project? https://www.theembouchureproject.org/

[timothy42b]

Some time ago - couple years maybe? Dave hosted an "embouchure hang" with Doug and a few others, on Zoom or Skype (I disremember).

That session would be a great demonstration of what dana is asking, at least from one perspective. Maybe at some point he'd do another, or make a recording available on a limited basis.

[Wilktone]

I did at least two of them, I think. Last one was April in 2023. I've also given similar presentations in person at various brass or music educator's conferences. Each time I try to revise it a bit and see if I can tighten up the presentation and provide good information.

This presentation is what I'm offering to meet up with you for, Dana. I've got a video on my web site/YouTube channel of me practicing the presentation about a year ago, which you can watch if you want. I'd prefer to give it to you (and anyone else who wants to join us) in person, however, because it gives me a chance to address questions and concerns that often come up.

[tbdana]

I did at least two of them, I think. Last one was April in 2023. I've also given similar presentations in person at various brass or music educator's conferences. Each time I try to revise it a bit and see if I can tighten up the presentation and provide good information.

This presentation is what I'm offering to meet up with you for, Dana. I've got a video on my web site/YouTube channel of me practicing the presentation about a year ago, which you can watch if you want. I'd prefer to give it to you (and anyone else who wants to join us) in person, however, because it gives me a chance to address questions and concerns that often come up.

Dave,

As you know, I've been messaging you about this, so I'll continue to communicate with you that way. I would love to watch that video, btw.

But have you ever considered recording your presentation and making it available (free or paid) for the benefit of all the trombonists in the known universe?

[Slidennis]

Dana, I can tell you about my own embouchure journey...
Typical case Doug Elliott told here and elsewhere again and again.

I'm just an amateur with 40 years of practice (lots of different bands, classical music to jazzy)... and for nearly 35 years my embouchure was a middle placement of the mouthpiece on my lips, rather small rims sizes for tenor trombone (6.5 AL max) till I went playing the bass bone on a 1 1/2 G.

A former trumpet player during my school years, I only took 3 years lessons on the trombone, at the beginning.
For more than 30 years I was a downstream player for the high and middle registers, and upstream player for the low register... till I completely messed up my embouchure playing the bass.
I struggled with mouthpieces, beleiving the right material will solve the problem, nearly quit playing and three years ago, I took some lessons again, with a not so talented teacher (more aimed at playing euphonium than trombone...) who finally advised me to put my mouthpiece higher on my lips, and I progressively shifted to what Doug defines as a very high placement type.
That was day and night for me, not all at once, but at least, the end of the nightmarre...
And all of a sudden, I understood what Doug was all about...
All those cracked notes I had in the middle register, instabilities around the D in the staff (my shifting zone between downstream and upstream), etc...

So now, I finally settled on a large rim (Doug Elliot LT102, a 4G size) for everything (not playing the bass anymore), and my upper register is even better so, with more endurance than ever.

Thanks to Youtube, I learned a lot about the warmups I could do every day, especially to reclaim a good low register (my struggle zone for me now...) and a not too bad flexibility...

But I can tell you, playing with bad habbits for years, and it'll have to take years to change it...
Here in Belgium there is not the expertise that is available elsewhere (although Doug advised me on a Skype session with him, but I'm not used to any such computer program, even today), but I already encountered here another trombonist with a embouchure story very near mine.
I believe it is not that uncommun...

Hope it's been of some interest to you...

[ssking2b]

I studied with a teacher for a while who had been a student of Reinhardt. We discussed use of the pivot in the course of my lessons. He never told me about the designation for my embouchure type, but he did use Reinhardt book to look it up. Perhaps he felt I might be confused with nomenclature.

When I talk about finding your natural embouchure, I guess that is about type. I just try to get students to use that natural placement and air flow - upstream or downstream, or whatever, to place the mouthpiece. Then we work on tongue placement, mouth aperture, syllables, and especially the hot wet breath to get maximum efficiency with all of it. I use simple exercises to start with, and work on technique after we address the whole face issue.

[AndrewMeronek]

especially the hot wet breath

Maybe this might be a fun tangent. I (somewhat) disagree with this idea, and I've gotten this advice multiple times when I was younger.

I would frame this sense of moisture or airspeed slightly differently, going with the related open-to-closed vowel usage when going from low range to high range. In the low range, yes, the correct air usage results in a fairly "hot and wet" air going through the lip aperture; but in the high range this HAS to be "cool and dry" because it has to be much more focused, directed, faster - however you prefer your mental imagery.

It's part of how to get everything embouchure-related into balance between different ranges.

[harrisonreed]

Dana, I think Doug Elliott is considered the leading authority on embouchure mechanics in the USA. He has the ability to teach you the general knowledge you seek.

You seem to be resistant to getting a lesson, but aside from borrowing the somewhat cryptic Reinhardt Encyclopedia you're not going to find what you're looking for otherwise, for my 2 cents anyways.

[tbdana]

Dana, I think Doug Elliott is considered the leading authority on embouchure mechanics in the USA. He has the ability to teach you the general knowledge you seek.

You seem to be resistant to getting a lesson, but aside from borrowing the somewhat cryptic Reinhardt Encyclopedia you're not going to find what you're looking for otherwise, for my 2 cents anyways.

Actually, Doug and I have been messaging, but schedules are difficult to coordinate at the moment. But I'm on it.

Yes, I have been resistant to "lessons," because I'm not looking for lessons, I'm looking for general knowledge. I'm not looking to learn about my emouchure, I'm looking to learn embouchures in general, and not just the (still controversial) Reinhardt method. But I've given in, and am going to get some personal instruction from Reinhardt folks, because they tell me it will give me the general knowledge I seek. I'm still skeptical, but certainly don't want to close my mind to it, so I'm going that direction in good faith and hoping my preconceptions are all wrong. As they usually are.

[harrisonreed]

FWIW, I think Reinhardt is controversial because of the poor wording choice of his whole method -- "pivot" gives the idea of changing the horn angle to get a different register, or physically moving the mouthpiece to a different spot on the lips to change registers. The misunderstanding is thinking he's actually teaching people to do this. But "pivot" in his mind is a descriptor for so much more than how or if the horn angle changes as you move through registers. The teeth, the jaw, the position of the lips over the teeth, the horn angle, the aperture shape, etc. and most of what he writes about is describing how different embouchure types function, not a specified "you must do this". He's just calling it as it is, not how he wishes it was, at least in the encyclopedia.

If the goal was to get a rock to roll down a hill, it's like:

"This rock tends to roll down the hill this way because it is shaped like a potato."

Not

"Shape your rock like a potato so it rolls down the hill this way"

[Doug Elliott]

Reinhardt didn't "invent" the idea of the pivot - he "discovered" it by observing what many successful players did, and then divided it into similarities and differences to describe the various "types."

The controversy is between the "song and wind" approach that worked for Arnold Jacobs who was a naturally gifted player, and the analytical approach that Reinhardt took because he had lots of problems playing. Both of them went to Curtis in the 1930's but made very different choices.

[harrisonreed]

Arnold Jacobs, aka the "Think" system!

[kbryson]

Now I have not had a chance to observe Tucker's embouchure before his difficulties, however what he describes is common among players who unconsciously type switch. Players can "get away" with this for a while, often sounding very good, until it breaks down completely. In his video Tucker says, "I've always been a pretty natural player and thought the years I've never had any teachers switch up my embouchure and tell me a specific way that I had to play. . . I figured as long as I'm getting the results that I intend everything must be functioning properly."

I personally would not describe the functioning brass embouchure as Tucker does in his video. I think there are other characteristics that he's leaving out that are more important and that being aware of those things would help type switching players much more efficiently than trying to make the embouchure function with the same "thought patterns" as when we speak.

Tucker's embouchure type is harder for me to guess, maybe because he's still type switching a bit. Maybe Reinhardt Type IIIB (Elliott type "Medium High Placement") but at times he looks like a IIIA to me.

It sounds like you are inferring he got focal dystonia due to type switching? That's an interesting take that I don't think anyone doing dystonia research has explored!

I posted that video as someone who has studied with Dion before, and is still working with his teacher Jan Kagarice. I sought out their help after years of my own struggles with embouchure injury, face spasms, and control issues (I was never formally diagnosed with dystonia though). Almost a decade prior I had spent time studying with a Reinhardt expert. Maybe I didn't understand it very well or apply it correctly, but I can trace some of my eventual embouchure troubles to things I learned and did while studying with that teacher.

What I like about the Kagarice method (and maybe this is why it works so well for dystonia) is that it flips a lot of conventional brass pedagogy on its head in the relentless pursuit of efficiency: Don't buzz the lips, keep the corners relaxed instead of firm, use less air instead of more, focus on the sonic results, not individual motor movements. Much of the basis for this approach comes from observing the physical characteristics of brass instruments rather than the anatomy of individual players. Obviously both methods have produced some remarkable performers. I am in some of the best playing shape of my life right now, perhaps this method just clicks with my brain or understanding of the world?

[Slidennis]

It sounds like you are inferring he got focal dystonia due to type switching? That's an interesting take that I don't think anyone doing dystonia research has explored!

That, for sure, was my case...

And I wonder how certain people can get a good low range playing a downstream embouchure on a small mouthpiece like a 12C... Naturally beginning the trombone on a 12C, playing it for more than 10 years, I had to switch between registers, and my pedal tones were good, whereas now, I still struggle to reach them on a 4G sized mpc...

[harrisonreed]

I'm a downstream player and I play pedals by switching to upstream for those. It's pretty common to do that.

[Wilktone]

Dana and I hung out last night for a couple of hours. I took her through my presentation on the embouchure types and then we spent some time looking at her playing and chewing the fat about brass technique, gigs, players, etc. Hopefully she found it interesting and I gave her a couple of ideas of things she can explore in her own playing. If you've heard Dana's recordings you already know that she's playing extremely well right now. We focused more on general descriptions of brass embouchure technique.

But have you ever considered recording your presentation and making it available (free or paid) for the benefit of all the trombonists in the known universe?

Pretty much everything that I covered is already available on my web site and/or my YouTube channel, you just need to poke around. I prefer using my blog to cover this stuff, in part because if I learn something new or get something wrong I can more easily make an edit compared with a video already uploaded to YouTube.

It sounds like you are inferring he got focal dystonia due to type switching? That's an interesting take that I don't think anyone doing dystonia research has explored!

I'm not really inferring anything for Tucker's chops, I really don't have enough information. However, type switching definitely is associated with chop problems that are consistent with the symptoms of what is diagnosed as "embouchure dystonia." And I have helped players who were struggling due to type switching by helping them learn what type works for them so that they can avoid the switching.

Most of the researchers looking into embouchure issues like this are unaware of embouchure types, although that's starting to change. For some of them, they have medical backgrounds and are relying on the players themselves to indicate whether or not their embouchure technique was OK to start with. Many of these researchers are also investigating focal dystonia in musicians as a whole, not just embouchure problems. So they may be also looking at hand dystonia for pianists, etc., which certainly don't need to worry about embouchure type switching.

Most of the researchers I'm aware of who have a musical background are also unaware of embouchure types. This might explain why they ended up with troubles in the first place.

At the very least, embouchure types are an important variable that any serious researcher should be looking at. Do players of one particular embouchure type run into more problems than others? Do players of different embouchure types exhibit different symptoms when they have problems? Is type switching involved in some, most, or all cases of severe embouchure breakdown?

Almost a decade prior I had spent time studying with a Reinhardt expert. Maybe I didn't understand it very well or apply it correctly, but I can trace some of my eventual embouchure troubles to things I learned and did while studying with that teacher.

I don't know who you studied with, but it's possible you were mistyped or given the opposite instructions you needed. Everyone can make a mistake. Reinhardt even mistyped some of his students. I'm aware of at least one longer-term Reinhardt student who had his chops break down after decades of successful playing because he was actively practicing to play on the wrong embouchure type.

I worked with a student about a month ago who I had taught a lesson before. While I didn't mistype his embouchure, I did advise something for him that ended up actively working against him. In our second lesson we got that straightened out, but if we hadn't had that follow up lesson it might have caused some problems down the line. It's tricky and I think it's hard to not double down and lock ourselves into ideas that can be adjusted.

What I like about the Kagarice method (and maybe this is why it works so well for dystonia) is that it flips a lot of conventional brass pedagogy on its head in the relentless pursuit of efficiency: Don't buzz the lips, keep the corners relaxed instead of firm, use less air instead of more, focus on the sonic results, not individual motor movements. Much of the basis for this approach comes from observing the physical characteristics of brass instruments rather than the anatomy of individual players.

I'm not certain Kagarice would describe this similarly, but perhaps close enough. What I don't like about this approach is that it avoids objective analysis of what is actually causing the problem with playing analogy and sensation. "Don't buzz the lips," is a demonstrably wrong description of a well-functioning brass embouchure. "Keep the corners relaxed instead of firm," could be a good playing sensation to aim for if you're holding them too firm or locked in the wrong position. It could also be exactly opposite of what the player actually should be doing if they're not holding the corners in the correct spot.

Since everyone has a different face, everyone will have a different embouchure. I am less concerned with a student's equipment and more concerned with how they are playing. I certainly don't get out my measuring tools and investigate their anatomy because that's not useful, I assume that the musician's anatomy is unique and instead look at how they are playing and through careful experimentation try to find out what embouchure mechanics will ultimately be the most efficient for them.

Focusing on sonic effects is, I believe, exactly why some of us end up with embouchure issues in the first place. That was certainly my experience. Most of my formative teachers were "song & wind" advocates.

But what I disagree with most is the reluctance to incorporate the variable of embouchure types. I don't think it is because she is unaware that they exist, but maybe she doesn't believe in them or ignores them because they don't fit her preferred program?

I'm a downstream player and I play pedals by switching to upstream for those. It's pretty common to do that.

Not common from what I've seen. Also, based on what you've written about this in the past I'm not convinced that you're actually flipping the air stream direction. My offer to buy you a transparent mouthpiece for the video is still open. Just PM me the shipping address. It would be cool to learn something new and be proven wrong.

Dave

[kbryson]

I don't know who you studied with, but it's possible you were mistyped or given the opposite instructions you needed. Everyone can make a mistake. Reinhardt even mistyped some of his students. I'm aware of at least one longer-term Reinhardt student who had his chops break down after decades of successful playing because he was actively practicing to play on the wrong embouchure type.

Of course! I chose not to call out the instructor by name because I know they meant well, and are likely still helping plenty of students! I will say that it was more then just a couple lessons; I bought into the approach and tried to apply it faithfully.

I'm not certain Kagarice would describe this similarly, but perhaps close enough. What I don't like about this approach is that it avoids objective analysis of what is actually causing the problem with playing analogy and sensation. "Don't buzz the lips," is a demonstrably wrong description of a well-functioning brass embouchure. "Keep the corners relaxed instead of firm," could be a good playing sensation to aim for if you're holding them too firm or locked in the wrong position. It could also be exactly opposite of what the player actually should be doing if they're not holding the corners in the correct spot.

I am grossly oversimplifying the method with some of the descriptions above, and certainly relying on my own words to do that not hers. I think it would be meaningful for me to distinguish that one can buzz the lips to play, but it is not necessary (this would go for the other statements in that paragraph). Rest assured these are not intended to be vague sensory suggestions, the advise is to be taken literally (ie: relax what would typically be considered the "corners" of the embouchure). The physics behind this can be observed in the simple experiments outlined in the attached video:

A nice counterpart to this (although less scientific) is Christian Lindberg's observation/demonstration that if he tries to play on his trombone the same way he does when playing on his mouthpiece the results are less than ideal:

Focusing on sonic effects is, I believe, exactly why some of us end up with embouchure issues in the first place. That was certainly my experience. Most of my formative teachers were "song & wind" advocates.

In my opinion focusing on the sound is often misunderstood and taught poorly. I have heard teachers advise that students simply listen to a good player (like Alessi or Oft) and try to play exercises with their sound. I can see how this sort of vague approach can lead to problems and inefficiencies. I have found that it is effective in my own learning and teaching to break down individual elements of technique and attach them to sonic results. I think this level of nuance is what is missing when most people discuss "focusing on the sound." You can do it in a way that links healthy function to its equivalent sonic result.

[Wilktone]

I think it would be meaningful for me to distinguish that one can buzz the lips to play, but it is not necessary (this would go for the other statements in that paragraph).

Maybe we're talking about two different things?

I'm stating that the lips buzz when we play, inside the mouthpiece. This is a demonstrable fact. Sure, the column of air inside the instrument can be excited through heat, a bassoon reed, or other artificial oscillator. But when we play it's the buzzing of the lips that excite the air column and produces the tone.

Do you need to practice mouthpiece buzzing or free buzzing in order to play? No. We can debate their value, but they are not necessary for learning to play the instrument.

Rest assured these are not intended to be vague sensory suggestions, the advise is to be taken literally (ie: relax what would typically be considered the "corners" of the embouchure).

I have a problem with taking this advice literally. This is one of the reasons why I like to discuss objective descriptions of brass embouchures. It can become difficult to distinguish between analogy and playing sensations.



The musicians in the above video all have issues that are, in part, related to not holding their mouth corners in place. Some players do need to relax their corners, but in my experience I've found holding the corners too loose to be more common. I tend to not advise musicians to relax their corners unless I've watched them play and see that this suggestion would help.

In my opinion focusing on the sound is often misunderstood and taught poorly.

I had some excellent teachers throughout high school through grad school who were advocates of song & wind. I also learned some of it straight from Arnold Jacobs, not in private lessons but in attending a couple of his master classes. Not to mention all the books written about Jacobs and his teaching. I think I've got a pretty good handle on it. After all, the whole point of this approach is to simplify it into chasing the imagined sound and letting the body figure out how to get their on its own. It's a conceptually easy idea, which is very attractive, particularly if we don't really know why a player is struggling.

Focus on the sound is great. It's where we want our attention to be while performing and, assuming that good playing habits are established enough, it also can clear up technique. But attention on product over process at all times will make for inconsistent playing habits, particularly if the no one knowledgeable is there to watch and make corrections. Jacobs was certainly fine taking the time to describe efficient breathing technique to students, but this school of thought is definitely allergic to relying on descriptions of healthy embouchure habits. It's not hard to find some advocates of pure song & wind even claiming that understanding and practicing embouchure mechanics is what causes problems in the first place.

Many of the adult students I teach come to me specifically for help because they have not been able to solve their playing issues through song & wind. I feel like I am able to commiserate because that was my experience too.

Brass pedagogy is full of exercises and etudes that have little musical value, but do something for our technique. Simple, slow lip slurs, for example, are great for fine tuning the technique we use for changing pitches. We don't need to multitask while playing them, we pick one or two things that we can keep our attention on and spend a little time practicing that. Then we move on to something else. Then we move on and concentrate on the sound and forget the process.

These approaches are two sides of the same coin, not opposites.

Dave

[Doug Elliott]

I've been following this but haven't had time to respond until now.
I taught Kevin by Skype and I think once in person over a 5 year period. He was and is an excellen player, but had issues with excess tension. I don't remember all the details now.

Useful instruction always depends on what the player is already doing. "Relaxing the corners" isn't usually the way I say it, but tension doesn't belong in the corners. My teaching has evolved over the years and hopefully I am better now at dealing with that.

[Bach5G]

I pulled my Reinhardt Routines (Reinhardt/Willey) off the shelf this weekend and looked through them. My chops seem to be a combination of doing wrong things or getting old. Maybe too many different mouthpieces. Maybe all of these. Or something completely different.

Is there value in working through the 11-day rotation?

[kbryson]

I've been following this but haven't had time to respond until now.
I taught Kevin by Skype and I think once in person over a 5 year period. He was and is an excellen player, but had issues with excess tension. I don't remember all the details now.

Doug, thanks for chiming in- I didn't feel comfortable mentioning you by name because I didn't want it to seem like I was undercutting your instruction. I recognize that a lot of players have (and continue to) benefit from your expertise. You are remembering correctly that excess tension was an issue I struggled with at the time, and maybe that's part of the reason why the focus on efficiency now is working well for me now. Still playing on all your mouthpieces!

Maybe we're talking about two different things?

This may be splitting hairs, but my understanding of the method I follow now is that the buzz is not exciting the air, simply blowing into the horn is. This is demonstrated in the linked video through tapping on the mouthpiece with a cupped hand. Its subtle, but there is pitch content there its just not a sustained. Any vibrating the lips do is designed to propagate the standing wave (and pitch) by vibrating sympathetically with it.

It would be interesting to compare what a player like myself, Dion, or someone else trained in this method do in the acryllic/see through mouthpiece with the videos done in your research. Maybe it's different?

[Kbiggs]

Focus on the sound is great. It's where we want our attention to be while performing and, assuming that good playing habits are established enough, it also can clear up technique. But attention on product over process at all times will make for inconsistent playing habits, particularly if the no one knowledgeable is there to watch and make corrections. Jacobs was certainly fine taking the time to describe efficient breathing technique to students, but this school of thought is definitely allergic to relying on descriptions of healthy embouchure habits. It's not hard to find some advocates of pure song & wind even claiming that understanding and practicing embouchure mechanics is what causes problems in the first place.

This.

I’ve learned from teachers of different schools, and I’ve had a few teachers who studied with Jacobs (Jacobites?) or other players from Chicago (Crisafulli, Kleinhammer, Herseth, Clevenger, etd.). I’ve started to use my sound as just one gauge of my playing. If my embouchure feels good and things sound good from this side of the bell, then I just need to monitor my playing. But if my embouchure doesn’t feel right, or I’m not sounding good, or both, then I know I need pay more attention to something mechanical, i.e., something in my body like embouchure, breathing, tension, focus, etc.

For me, using the song & wind approach helps when I’m not sounding good, when my embouchure doesn’t feel right, and when motivation is low. “I just need to play the right note at the right time,” “The audience doesn’t care if I’m ill, or if my embouchure doesn’t feel right, or if my dog just died,” “Don’t believe everything you think,” “Do you really think anyone in the audience is following along with the score?,” are all things I’ve told myself at various times to continue.

Having had a recent tune-up with Doug, however, I can say playing music is so much easier—less tension, less frustration, better results—when you use mechanics that work for you.

[Wilktone]

This may be splitting hairs, but my understanding of the method I follow now is that the buzz is not exciting the air, simply blowing into the horn is. This is demonstrated in the linked video through tapping on the mouthpiece with a cupped hand. Its subtle, but there is pitch content there its just not a sustained. Any vibrating the lips do is designed to propagate the standing wave (and pitch) by vibrating sympathetically with it.

It would be interesting to compare what a player like myself, Dion, or someone else trained in this method do in the acryllic/see through mouthpiece with the videos done in your research. Maybe it's different?

No buzz means no sound. We all play by allowing our lips to vibrate sympathetically with the standing wave, but if the lips don't vibrate in the first place the standing wave isn't going to be excited. Blowing into the instrument with our lips wide open will not get a sound.

If we want the note to start cleanly on the specific pitch we want the lips need to be engaged so that they are buzzing at (or near enough) the pitch in the first place. Otherwise we're just chipping the initial attack. You have to set your lips at the beginning of the blowing differently for a high Bb than you need for a low Bb.

Now we can discuss the *feel* of allowing the natural resonances of the instrument starting the vibrations. "Don't buzz the lips" may be a useful analogy for some players, but it doesn't accurately describe what is actually happening.

I use analogies and descriptions of playing sensations in my teaching and practicing all the time. But I prefer to describe them as such (e.g., "Blow and imagine you're allowing the instrument's resonance to start the buzz."), not as literal description.

Dave

[Savio]

Dave and Doug, are you both sure your way is the only way and the correct way?

Leif

[Wilktone]

Well, once I thought I made a mistake, but it turns out I was wrong.

Is my way the only way? Of course not.

Am I always correct? I happened to mention a mistake I made with a student earlier in this thread. Fortunately, I got to give a second lesson and was able to straighten it out later. Doug mentioned above that he's changed his approach and works to become better too. I've probably made mistakes that I've never noticed because, like everyone, I have blind spots and bias.

When reading my posts, please note qualifying phrases that I try to throw in to indicate whether I'm speaking about something I believe to be a fact and what I'm speculating on. For the later, I write things like "I believe," "I think," "I prefer," etc.

Do I think that I'm correct that it's the lip buzz that creates and maintains the standing wave? Yes, I do. I think that this is also the consensus, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. I just want it to be evidence, not anecdotal.