Students and Malfunctioning Slides?

[DCIsky]

Hello Hive Mind! This is cross-posted on Facebook, but I know many people are leaving Meta so I thought I’d try here as well.

As part of my arts administration graduate coursework, I’m creating a hypothetical educational outreach event called “Sliding to Success.” The core of this event is providing 1) professional-level trombone slide repair services as well as 2) proper training on regular maintenance to scholastic trombone students free of charge, so that they can experience the benefits of playing trombone with a properly-functioning slide (as opposed to the unaligned, dent-ridden slides that plague most students’/school-owned instruments).

As with any proposal, I need metrics, and I’m realizing that I have no idea where to find metrics that address any of the following questions, such as:
- What percentage of student trombonists quit after elementary/middle/early high school, in comparison to the percentages of musicians who play other instruments/instrument families?
- if students experience dissatisfaction with trombone, what are those reasons? Is playability (potentially due to slide condition) a factor in their choice?
- How many student trombonists receive proper guidance on trombone-specific care, beyond the first couple days of elementary or middle school band?

If anyone has any data or experience with these studies, or any sort of information on how instrument condition/playability affects student musicians across instrument types, I would love to look into it! Thank you!

[Mamaposaune]

I can't give you any statistics, but can share my experiences as a long-time private teacher who always goes over slide maintenance from the 1st lesson.
Band directors either don't know how, or don't have time
to cover even basic slide care. Every new student I've had, even those who have played for several years, haven't a clue and most of the time their slides are rough and sticky in every position. Some use cream, but don't really know how to apply it, and don't even wipe the inner slide down between applications. Some go between oil and cream.
I'll use my cleaning rod with isopropyl alcohol to cut through the caked-on gunk and show them how to apply a thin layer of cream (which I use) then spray with water but mention other lubricants (Yamaha, Rika, etc.) that they might want to try.
Unless the slide is dented or bent, there is a huge improvement and the kids are amazed at how much easier playing becomes. Of course I also have to remind them to use the slide lock, and/or keep a pinky on the outer slide brace.
I demonstrate how to use the cleaning snake for the inners at home with water and a drop of dish detergent.
Also, for all the younger kids and even some of my older ones, I always use my cleaning rod at the start of each lesson because I just know that sooner or later they're going to get into trouble doing it at home.

[JTeagarden]

I'd think the various state Music Educators Associations might be a logical enough place to start, they might have decent data on # of players of various instruments in member ensembles, you might be able to figure out the % of beginning students who remain 1 year, 2 years, 3 years out, etc.

I have no data on this, but I would be completely shocked if any kid anywhere could articulate something as concrete as "bad slide action" as a basis for quitting trombone, since even the most sluggish slide can cut the whole notes and half notes they'll be playing for the first several years.

A better slide is a solution to a problem they don't even know they have, and probably well down the list of things they care about, primarily being "those flute players are cute," and "glisses are fun!"

[Savio]

Ooh that's an important question. Too many kid's stop playing because of bad slides or bad instruments. Of course school bands have conductor's or teacher's that don't know all instruments. I'm one of them. But there is lot of education videos about how to change the reed on a clarinet or make the slide on the trombone.

Leif

[robcat2075]

As a product of a public school band program and ... for one year... a teacher of public school band 5-12, I don't have metrics but i will assert...

• While a student, the most significant factor I observed in early dropping-out was the point where the parent had to decide whether to move from an initial trial-rental period of the instrument to actually buying it. If the kid was still making random squawks after three months or had lost interest, the instrument went back. Once the instrument was owned, they were in it through jr. high at least. The teacher can't drop them just because they don't play well.

• Very few students are in it because of some refined interest in music or quest for perfection. They are there because their friends are in it. If their friends leave, they leave. At the school I taught at, away-football games were the only time most of these kids got out of town and saw something as exotic as an all-night convenience store. If you weren't on the football team, you had better be in the band or you would be a very lonely high schooler.

• For a lot of kids, the bad instrument is a plus. "My valve is stuck! I don't have to play today, right? Ha ha!"

• For most of 7th grade I had a dirty slide i had to push and pull to each position while it made an audible scratching sound. My teacher must surely have observed this at my lessons but never said a word about it. For all i knew, that was normal. I just muscled through it.

[AtomicClock]

For most of 7th grade I had a dirty slide i had to push and pull to each position while it made an audible scratching sound.

I used to grab the bell with my right hand to muscle 3rd and 4th into position. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why so many pros still touch the bell in 3rd. Old habits die hard.

[sctroy]

Our wind ensemble just completed a series of sectional coaching sessions with the local high school band. We noticed the noise coming our of the students' slides, so we carved 15 minutes out of a session to demonstrate how to clean and lubricate a slide. I purchased each student a bottle of Rapid Comfort, a spray bottle and a shotgun cleaning rod (only $9 on Amazon!). Needless to say, their slides were filthy inside and out. Everything is now working much better for them and they aren't fighting their instruments. Amazingly enough, their slides weren't dented at all!

Steve Troy

[AtomicClock]

I bet most of them already had a rod and lube. But probably not the knowledge. What did you have them thread through the rod?

[sctroy]

I bet most of them already had a rod and lube. But probably not the knowledge. What did you have them thread through the rod?

Nope - they had neither (notice you don't get a rod with a new horn any longer?). They were using slide oil. Since these were student quality horns, we just used small pieces of paper towel to get the gunk out.

[AtomicClock]

(notice you don't get a rod with a new horn any longer?)

Did you hear about the music store that isn't selling cleaning rods any longer?
They are already long enough.
Bwahahaha!

[Kbiggs]

One student bought his horn used for $125. After running a rod and cloth through the outer slides and still getting tons of gunk, I told him to get it chemically cleaned. When I saw him after the winter break, he told me it would take the local shop three weeks to get it done (!), and the charge was $125. His parents didn’t see the point of spending the money on a horn that’s not worth it… and, of course, they aren’t willing to buy a better horn.

$250 Nike shoes are rarely given a second thought for many students in my corner of the world. But $125 for a working slide? Impossible.

[BrassSection]

Doesn’t seem to be just students

Had a “slide issue” with a several years prior graduated student. Trying to put together a brass ensemble at church. 2 sisters, both now nurses wanted to join. One still had her trumpet from school days, the trombone playing one needed a horn. Church drummer/local band director got a horn for her to use. She returned it to him and reported “There’s something wrong with the slide positions”. After checking the horn out, operator error was determined. She did not join the ensemble. Thought horns were like riding a bike, once you learn you’ve got it, with the exception of losing your chops until you practice again.

[BrassSection]

Just a thought on neglected slides. Has anybody tried a good (fresh from the bottle) automatic transmission fluid swabbing? Auto trans fluid is an excellent penetrating/cleaning fluid. Thorough cleaning of the slides after the oil with some alcohol should leave things clean and smooth and ready for your favorite slide lube.

[BrassSection]

(notice you don't get a rod with a new horn any longer?)

Did you hear about the music store that isn't selling cleaning rods any longer?
They are already long enough.
Bwahahaha!

Or the guy that walked into the local NAPA store looking for a longer dipstick for his car because the one in it no longer reached the oil!

[robcat2075]

She returned it to him and reported “There’s something wrong with the slide positions”.

Maybe she had been a treble clef player... and didn't know the clef was an important factor.

[BrassSection]

She returned it to him and reported “There’s something wrong with the slide positions”.

Maybe she had been a treble clef player... and didn't know the clef was an important factor.

Band director confirmed she was bass clef. She had been out of high school maybe ten years.

[TomWest]

Just a thought on neglected slides. Has anybody tried a good (fresh from the bottle) automatic transmission fluid swabbing? Auto trans fluid is an excellent penetrating/cleaning fluid. Thorough cleaning of the slides after the oil with some alcohol should leave things clean and smooth and ready for your favorite slide lube.

Which kind of ATF? There is the new stuff for Constant Variable Transmissions, the standard stuff for most American automatic transmissions, the special stuff for Mercedes, Audi, BMW and the stuff for Asian cars, Honda, Toyota, etc. I want to get the right stuff so my slide doesn’t blow.

[BGuttman]

Just a thought on neglected slides. Has anybody tried a good (fresh from the bottle) automatic transmission fluid swabbing? Auto trans fluid is an excellent penetrating/cleaning fluid. Thorough cleaning of the slides after the oil with some alcohol should leave things clean and smooth and ready for your favorite slide lube.

Which kind of ATF? There is the new stuff for Constant Variable Transmissions, the standard stuff for most American automatic transmissions, the special stuff for Mercedes, Audi, BMW and the stuff for Asian cars, Honda, Toyota, etc. I want to get the right stuff so my slide doesn’t blow.

Dexron VI

[Kbiggs]

Just a thought on neglected slides. Has anybody tried a good (fresh from the bottle) automatic transmission fluid swabbing? Auto trans fluid is an excellent penetrating/cleaning fluid. Thorough cleaning of the slides after the oil with some alcohol should leave things clean and smooth and ready for your favorite slide lube.

Why would you want to use something on your slide that is intended for use in cars? Have you looked at the SDS for auto trans fluid? Do you really want to be around that stuff, knowing that at some point you’re going to breathe the fumes/vapors? I don’t need anything else reducing my lung function, thanks.

[Posaunus]

Just a thought on neglected slides. Has anybody tried a good (fresh from the bottle) automatic transmission fluid swabbing? Auto trans fluid is an excellent penetrating/cleaning fluid. Thorough cleaning of the slides after the oil with some alcohol should leave things clean and smooth and ready for your favorite slide lube.

Why would you want to use something on your slide that is intended for use in cars? Have you looked at the SDS for auto trans fluid? Do you really want to be around that stuff, knowing that at some point you’re going to breathe the fumes/vapors? I don’t need anything else reducing my lung function, thanks.

I'm surprised that no one has suggested dichloromethane (methylene chloride).
It's a great solvent! Oops - it's also a neurotoxicant and carcinogen.

Ethylene dichloride and trichloroethylene (TCE) - same problems.

Don't use these at home!

[BGuttman]

Why would you want to use something on your slide that is intended for use in cars? Have you looked at the SDS for auto trans fluid? Do you really want to be around that stuff, knowing that at some point you’re going to breathe the fumes/vapors? I don’t need anything else reducing my lung function, thanks.

I'm surprised that no one has suggested dichloromethane (methylene chloride).
It's a great solvent! Oops - it's also a neurotoxicant and carcinogen.

Ethylene dichloride and trichloroethylene (TCE) - same problems.

Don't use these at home!

Good solvent that is generally considered safe: Butyl carbitol. Doesn't evaporate, though. Rinses well with water.