I met Watrous at NAMM one year and he told me the same thing about improvising. He said "just play pretty melodies".Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:51 am LOTS of great information here.
Speaking of Frank Sinatra... LISTEN to what he does with melodies ... especially rhythmically. Listen, don't just hear.
When you're learning improvising, don't try to be Watrous or Fontana, try to be Sinatra. Make melodies that fit, the simpler the better.
How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
-
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:01 am
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
-
- Posts: 2605
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:10 pm
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
When did Bill Watrous just play pretty melodies?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 6537
- Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
- Location: Cow Hampshire
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
You aren't going to start improvising like Bill Watrous. You start simply and evolve.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
- Doug Elliott
- Posts: 3548
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm
- Location: Maryand
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
His very first album, titled William Russell Watrous.
I haven't checked YouTube but some of it is probably there.
Here:
(Side 1)
(Side 2)
Back then records were recorded on both sides.....
Mostly just playing the tunes, with strings. Similar to the albums Urbie was putting out at about the same time. I was heavily influenced by both.
I haven't checked YouTube but some of it is probably there.
Here:
(Side 1)
(Side 2)
Back then records were recorded on both sides.....
Mostly just playing the tunes, with strings. Similar to the albums Urbie was putting out at about the same time. I was heavily influenced by both.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
- BGuttman
- Posts: 6537
- Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
- Location: Cow Hampshire
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Good models to emulate, Doug.
He really plays close to the melody on the tunes. Just little things here and there. This is a good way to get your feet wet without sounding like you are lost or have no clue what you are doing.
He really plays close to the melody on the tunes. Just little things here and there. This is a good way to get your feet wet without sounding like you are lost or have no clue what you are doing.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
- harrisonreed
- Posts: 5359
- Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
- Location: Fort Riley, Kansas
- Contact:
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
- Wilktone
- Posts: 506
- Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:11 pm
- Location: Asheville, NC
- Contact:
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Yes! But again, just to make sure Crook's point is clear, you're not focused on playing perfectly in time (or worrying about note choices or rhythmic variety, etc.) while working on the "pacing" exercises, you're only concerned with play/rest. If you're practicing some really odd play/rest patterns it's going to be easy to get lost in the form or loose track of the time, etc. That's ok. You'll spend time next week (or whenever) working on that topic.baileyman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:53 am If I recall Hal's play/rest included exercises like, play two measures, rest two, repeat, and every variation on that idea, like, play one, rest three, play two beats, rest six, whatever, but all this in time, so the rest is also in time. Play the rests, they're music, too.
"Stretching the Time" is the first topic in Section II of Crook's "How To Improvise" book. In Section I he has the topic "Time Feel." In addition to practicing the general idea of putting all rhythms perfectly in the pocket of the groove, he has exercises that eliminate other aspects of improvisation so you can more easily put your attention on the time feel.He also does a time stretching exercise, but it sure seems worthwhile to first be recognized for having strong time feel before messing around with something that otherwise sounds like a big error. Most tromboners start on time, time stretch for four, take a breath, then start the next four on time, etc.
"Time Feel Exercise #1: Swing Feel, Accents, Syncopation (without chords)
With a single note, play repeated attacks in tempo using consecutive 'swing' 8th notes only . . . Use the play/rest approach, vary the phrase lengths. Repeat with downbeat accents only. . . Repeat applying only ubeat accents. . . Repeat applying a random mixture of accents. . . .Repeat adding syncopated rhythms. . . Repeat using 2 different notes, chord arpeggios, and conventional 7-note scales."
The bold emphasis above is mine, to reiterate that resting while you're practicing is not only to add musical variety to your improvisations, but also to give you a chance to think about what you just played and evaluate how well you did it. Then you think about what's coming up and how to play it correctly.
"Someplace Else," by Watrous with the Patrick Williams Orchestra is another one. A couple improvisations you'd expect from Watrous, but mostly just beautiful melodies. I haven't put that album on in a long time, but have it on right now. I remember noticing some spots in the record where Watrous is holding out some incredibly long phrases and you can hear him sniffing through his nose if you listen closely enough while circular breathing.
Learning to play strong melodies isn't just to give you something musical to play that is simpler than intricate bop lines. When you get down to the details of what makes a melody from a standard so expressive you'll find that the bop solos also have the same features, albeit with much more complex rhythms. Memorizing the melody of the tunes you're playing isn't just to play without music, it's so that you can internalize the melodic language of jazz.
-
- Posts: 2605
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:10 pm
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Frank Vignola, jazz guitarist, advises that by the time you learn 200 tunes, you’ll have no trouble improvising.
-
- Posts: 4132
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
- Location: California
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Thanks to Trombone Keiji for posting this on YouTube. The LP album was never released on CD. But you can buy the vinyl on Amazon for a mere $99.95 (+ $3.99 shipping) !!Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:22 pm His very first album, titled William Russell Watrous.
Here:
(Side 1)
(Side 2)
Mostly just playing the tunes, with strings. Similar to the albums Urbie was putting out at about the same time. I was heavily influenced by both.
- soseggnchips
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:28 am
- Location: UK
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Here's a little improvisation exercise that I like. If you're interested in dipping your toe in the water, spend about 15 minutes a day on this for the next week and see how you get on:
Monday
Before your practice, find a backing track that is just a Dm7 chord vamping over and over. Aebersold, YouTube, Band-in-a-Box - any will do. Just make sure it's at a reasonable tempo.
For today, all you need to do is play one note against that backing track: D. This isn't a long tone exercise, though - you need to make it interesting. Try different rhythms, start in different parts of the bar. Play loud, play soft, use different articulations. Can you play something that is musical and interesting on just one note?
Tuesday
You're going to do the same thing again, but now you're going to add in a second note: F. As before, play along with the backing track, but now try creating simple patterns using F and D. Don't let your mind wander! Really listen to the sound of the notes you're playing. What does the D sound like against this chord? What does the F sound like? How does it sound going from D to F and F to D?
When your 15 minutes is up, put your trombone down. You're going to play your backing track one more time, but this time, you're going to sing the two notes you've just been playing. If you were paying attention, after listening to those two notes for 15 minutes they should be pretty well locked in your mind. Remember how they sounded against the chord, and sing some patterns using those notes. For this exercise, I suggest actually singing the names of the notes, rather than just a syllable like 'ah'.
Wednesday to Friday
Saturday and Sunday
At this point, you should now have 5 notes you can play against the Dm7 chord: DFGAC. Crucially, if all's gone to plan, you shouldn't just 'know' you can play those notes, you should be starting to hear what each of them sounds like in relation to that chord.
If so, you can try flipping the process on its head: set your backing track going, but before picking up your trombone, sing a phrase using the notes you've been practicing. Start simply - a short phrase using 2 or 3 notes, not the full set of 5. Pick up your trombone, and play the phrase you've just sung. Did the notes match? If so, good! See if you can do it with a slightly longer or more complicated phrase. If not, don't worry - keep trying, simplifying your phrases if necessary.
At this stage, it's a good idea to start asking yourself some 'what if' questions:
So what have you been learning this past week? Technically, you've been working on using a D minor pentatonic scale against a Dmin7 chord. This isn't the 'jazziest' of scales, but it's functional and will sound good against that chord in a variety of contexts and styles. More fundamentally though, what you've been doing is training your brain with the sound of each note of that scale when played over that chord. If you continue down that path, you'll get to a point where you can hear a melody over that chord in your head, and know instantly what the notes are that you need to play.
Combine that with a good theoretical knowledge of chords and scales (e.g. the knowledge that a D minor pentatonic will work over a Dmin7 chord) and you have a two-pronged approach you can use: you know on an intellectual level what notes will work, but more than that, through experimentation and experience you develop an intuitive 'feel' for how different notes (and different patterns of notes) sound over a given chord.
So, where to go next?
The important thing to remember is that it will take time: you're training a mental facility that you've probably not had much use for in the past - it's like learning a new language. Take it slow, have fun and don't be afraid to experiment: remember that in improvisation the question is not 'is this right or wrong?' but 'do I like the way this sounds?' I'd also argue that jazz is like science: progress usually starts not with 'eureka!', but 'hmm... that's interesting'.
Anyway, a much longer post than I'd intended - I hope someone out there finds it useful!
Monday
Before your practice, find a backing track that is just a Dm7 chord vamping over and over. Aebersold, YouTube, Band-in-a-Box - any will do. Just make sure it's at a reasonable tempo.
For today, all you need to do is play one note against that backing track: D. This isn't a long tone exercise, though - you need to make it interesting. Try different rhythms, start in different parts of the bar. Play loud, play soft, use different articulations. Can you play something that is musical and interesting on just one note?
Tuesday
You're going to do the same thing again, but now you're going to add in a second note: F. As before, play along with the backing track, but now try creating simple patterns using F and D. Don't let your mind wander! Really listen to the sound of the notes you're playing. What does the D sound like against this chord? What does the F sound like? How does it sound going from D to F and F to D?
When your 15 minutes is up, put your trombone down. You're going to play your backing track one more time, but this time, you're going to sing the two notes you've just been playing. If you were paying attention, after listening to those two notes for 15 minutes they should be pretty well locked in your mind. Remember how they sounded against the chord, and sing some patterns using those notes. For this exercise, I suggest actually singing the names of the notes, rather than just a syllable like 'ah'.
Wednesday to Friday
- On Wednesday, do the same again but now add the note G as well.
- On Thursday, do the same, but add the note A.
- On Friday, do the same, but add the note C.
Saturday and Sunday
At this point, you should now have 5 notes you can play against the Dm7 chord: DFGAC. Crucially, if all's gone to plan, you shouldn't just 'know' you can play those notes, you should be starting to hear what each of them sounds like in relation to that chord.
If so, you can try flipping the process on its head: set your backing track going, but before picking up your trombone, sing a phrase using the notes you've been practicing. Start simply - a short phrase using 2 or 3 notes, not the full set of 5. Pick up your trombone, and play the phrase you've just sung. Did the notes match? If so, good! See if you can do it with a slightly longer or more complicated phrase. If not, don't worry - keep trying, simplifying your phrases if necessary.
At this stage, it's a good idea to start asking yourself some 'what if' questions:
- What does it sound like if I put a chromatic note in between the D and the C? (D C# C or C C# D)
- What do different groups of 3 sound like? (DFG? FGA? FDC? ADF?) How about groups of 4? (AGFD? GFDC?)
- What does it sound like if I step into each of my 5 notes from a semitone below?
- Be inquisitive! Improvisation is as much about exploring and finding sounds you like as it is about a fixed body of knowledge.
So what have you been learning this past week? Technically, you've been working on using a D minor pentatonic scale against a Dmin7 chord. This isn't the 'jazziest' of scales, but it's functional and will sound good against that chord in a variety of contexts and styles. More fundamentally though, what you've been doing is training your brain with the sound of each note of that scale when played over that chord. If you continue down that path, you'll get to a point where you can hear a melody over that chord in your head, and know instantly what the notes are that you need to play.
Combine that with a good theoretical knowledge of chords and scales (e.g. the knowledge that a D minor pentatonic will work over a Dmin7 chord) and you have a two-pronged approach you can use: you know on an intellectual level what notes will work, but more than that, through experimentation and experience you develop an intuitive 'feel' for how different notes (and different patterns of notes) sound over a given chord.
So, where to go next?
- You could repeat the whole process, but up a semitone (on Ebm7) - you'd then know all the chords to 'So What'. Here's a great J.J. Johnson version for inspiration:
- You could repeat the process but up a 4th (on Gm7) - you'd then be about halfway to being able to play a minor blues, or a standard like 'Summertime' (here's a nice Chet Baker recording to give you some ideas:
- You could Google some stock ii-V7 licks in C (one of the most common jazz chord progressions) and try playing them over your Dm7 backing track to get a feel for how those patterns sound. Here's a basic one to get you started: DFAC BAGF.
- You could repeat the process using the exact same notes but over an Fmaj7 chord. You'd then have a feel for playing over Fmaj7 and Dm7, and would be about halfway to being able to play over a turnaround - another standard jazz chord progression.
The important thing to remember is that it will take time: you're training a mental facility that you've probably not had much use for in the past - it's like learning a new language. Take it slow, have fun and don't be afraid to experiment: remember that in improvisation the question is not 'is this right or wrong?' but 'do I like the way this sounds?' I'd also argue that jazz is like science: progress usually starts not with 'eureka!', but 'hmm... that's interesting'.
Anyway, a much longer post than I'd intended - I hope someone out there finds it useful!
- Wilktone
- Posts: 506
- Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:11 pm
- Location: Asheville, NC
- Contact:
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
That's a great first post, soseggnchips! I think it's very useful.
The only thing I'd add is to reiterate something that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. It's important to spend a little time just jamming too, just letting your ear and mood be your guide. It probably shouldn't be most of your practice time, but since that's our goal when performing it's a process that we should practice too.
Dave
The only thing I'd add is to reiterate something that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. It's important to spend a little time just jamming too, just letting your ear and mood be your guide. It probably shouldn't be most of your practice time, but since that's our goal when performing it's a process that we should practice too.
Dave
-
- Posts: 2605
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:10 pm
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
I am listening to Steve Davis on my Alexa. Eminently transcribable.
- soseggnchips
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:28 am
- Location: UK
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Thanks Dave. I completely agree with your suggestion - loads of good advice in this thread!Wilktone wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:50 pm That's a great first post, soseggnchips! I think it's very useful.
The only thing I'd add is to reiterate something that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. It's important to spend a little time just jamming too, just letting your ear and mood be your guide. It probably shouldn't be most of your practice time, but since that's our goal when performing it's a process that we should practice too.
Dave
-
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2022 6:10 pm
- Location: Melbourne. Australia
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
I've been looking for the 'other thread', what's it called so I can read that too?Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:25 pm I totally remember the time (in high school) when I had no idea how to start, or what to play, and whenever I tried, all of my technique went out the window. I got started by doing a lot of transcribing and copying. At the time that was mostly Urbie Green and Bob Brookmeyer.
At this point I suggest hitting it from as many different angles as possible.
Read Zac Lee's post in that other thread, it's all important stuff.
Listen, Transcribe.
Play by ear, every day. Get to know your way around the horn so you can play anything in any key without reading and without getting lost. That means tunes, etudes, scales, arpeggios, and maybe some patterns. You can't feel comfortable improvising unless you completely know your horn.
There's lots more but in my opinion that's where you need to start.
-
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2022 6:10 pm
- Location: Melbourne. Australia
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
How do I find that 'other thread'? What's it called please?
- Oslide
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:13 am
- Location: Switzerland, BL
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Ceterum censeo to fetch All of TTF
- Doug Elliott
- Posts: 3548
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm
- Location: Maryand
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
It's long but here's Zac's post:
JJ didn't play "saxophone lines" in most of his solos - his sound and his sense of swing and rhythm are what gets your attention. Heck, most of his solos are very approachable on the horn. I get all of my trombone students playing JJ solos - there's plenty of variation in difficulty across his body of work. The range is usually more of an issue than the speed of the actual lines, and JJ's range generally doesn't go beyond a high D - most of his stuff doesn't go above high C or Bb. As mentioned earlier, many of JJ's solos are "worked up" - he was a brilliant improvisor but generally knew what he was going to play before he went into the studio (some live stuff I've heard JJ on doesn't even sound like him it's so on another level of genius.) This is more common than a lot of people think. Compare alternate tracks on re-issues. It wasn't just JJ. TLDR: It's okay to work stuff up. This is a language, none of us are making up the words we're typing right now. Also, Swing is defined by the rhythm more-so than the harmonic language. One note in the right place is better than four in the wrong place.
Curtis Fuller plays a lot of stuff that is very approachable. His stuff just lays well, and rarely goes beyond 5th. Dynamically, he's very underrated for the amount of variation in his sound (probably due to the heavy compression on a lot of reissues i've heard). From whisper to shout - he really gets a lot of mileage out his solos, often from a small number of motifs. His "Wee Small Hours" from the Blakey album "Caravan" is the greatest late-night-feelin-sorry-for-yourself song I've ever heard. TLDR: Dynamics and sound are more important than blazing technique.
Rosolino - I can't do Roz, don't even ask me how. I've had one student who could. The approach is more similar to the old school approach (more arpeggiated vs. JJ's linear conception) but using modern harmonic language. His abilities were and still are beyond me (and most trombone players). Occasionally I'll hear him play something I like and know I can play so I'll work it up but generally I just listen to him solely for enjoyment. I have no problem admitting when I'm licked. Generally, if my beginners are into Roz, we work on some other stuff for a while so we can (me included) develop the necessary technique. I never could do lip slurs very well, and doing Roz well requires having those down, really articulate, with excellent time at all tempos. I don't know how many times I've stopped the CD while listening to Roz with a student to exclaim "I have no idea how he is doing that and swinging it so hard, that is so hard to do!" And then I'll hear someone do it and I'm just like "*?*" TLDR: Some people have technical powers you may never develop, but working towards them makes you better. I still can't play his stuff, but my lip slurs have improved tremendously from trying.
Fontana - I used to be able to do him okay-ish, I had a natural doodle tongue I didn't have to work on as much as most people, but this style does not keep well. If you lay off, you lose it. A lot of attention is paid to the fretting and what not by most students, but it's the accurate slide technique at speed (practice them modes and sequences!) that really prepares you for this guy. Not many of his solos I've heard that are "approachable" for beginners, but there is a lot of his stuff that lays easy on the horn if you can handle the speed and the doodle tongue. Other players with similar-ish approaches to the horn (Bob McChesney, Conrad Herwig, Marshall Gilkes for example) have similar technical challenges in their work. Often these are the guys I hear being referred to when someone talks about the difficulty of playing jazz on trombone. Yeah, this approach is incredibly difficult, but it's not impossible. It can all be broken down into patterns to practice (a lot). I took a lesson with Marshall Gilkes about 11 or 12 years ago and he told me a couple of little things that made a huge difference - one of those things (try saying "tuttle" instead of "doo-dle") really helped clarify things in certain registers where my clarity was breaking down. TLDR: Get a lesson with someone you look up to. I do this as often as I can afford the time and money to do it.
Back to the JJ - strain of playing, Slide Hampton is a bit more difficult than JJ and Curtis (for me) but he was my first template for the approach I take to playing salsa. Slide's big sound is the template that much of what I'd call the "modern NYC trombone sound" is based on. I hear his influence (and JJ's of course) being the most common amongst Jazz and Afro-Caribbean musicians coming out of that thing. It's not the only one, of course, NYC gives you a pretty broad sample of aesthetic now-a-days, even in the time of Covid. TLDR: What's your "sound"? A great sound can transcend stylistic concerns. Communicate your truth! Who do you love? What do you love? Play that!
Willie Colon and Jimmy Bosch both have exciting approaches to playing the trombone that translate really well to jazz and most forms of popular music (I prefer Sam's term, Pan-American vernacular music, and use that in my coursework.) Both are known for their work in the Salsa Dura (hard salsa) style - a style that is as much a part of jazz as anything from New Orleans. TLDR: There are no rules against bringing something different to the table as long as you respect the music. So many of the jazz musicians I worship either had Caribbean roots or have actual experience playing other styles of music in addition to jazz.
Teagarden? That stuff's generally quite a bit harder (for some, including me) although there are plenty of his solos that are easy and approachable. Teagarden was all melody. TLDR: Melody was, is, and always will be the primary consideration.
Dorsey? Range makes Dorsey difficult, but most of his songs are very approachable and provide extremely valuable melodic content. In my opinion, knowing at least some Dorsey is absolutely necessary to understanding JJ and his disciples. (And Urbie - jeez.) I remember one of my teachers telling me how huge Dorsey's sound was, how huge JJ's sound was - they weren't just smooth and pristine, they were big and scaled up too. I never could get in the ballpark of that Dorsey sound until I realized I'd been trying to make it too small, too quiet, and that there was a lot more volume there than I thought. TLDR: Sound, sound, sound, sound SOUND!
There used to be a radio station around here that played a lot of old big band stuff from the 30s and 40s. I had never realized how much popular big band literature was out there that featured the trombone so prominently that wasn't Dorsey. TLDR: People have always liked the trombone, they still do. Sometimes context matters...
There are a multitude of approaches to playing the trombone that are successful in improvised music, and not all of them are as difficult as bebop or modern up-tempo straight ahead jazz. If one really wants to be able to rip off blazing flights of fancy at q=350, go for it! Don't feel bad about starting a little slower at first, though. TLDR: Go practice. You'll never be able to hang at some ridiculous tempo on some ridiculous maze of chord changes if you aren't practicing something so much easier, so much slower, right now.
[/quote]
ExZacLee wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:15 pm I apologize in advance for this long missive... was about to delete it but i figured what the hell.
TLDR - yeah, trombone is hard, but so is everything else, so just do it. Everyone who does this dealt with the same "oh crap, there's no buttons on this thing!" situation. Go with your strengths. What is that? Sound.
Very true. All instruments have challenges, but the trombone and upright bass are easily the most challenging of the "common" jazz instruments.
This, I think, is not so true. I've been on plenty of gigs where the reaction you describe came after something I played... and the amazing artistry on display by my trumpet and sax bandmates was greeted with more of a ho-hum attitude. It really depends on the song and the style it's in, and the closer that style gets to New Orleans and its surrounding environs, the more at home something big and beautiful like a trombone is. On a Coltrane composition, I'm rarely going to be in a position to put something out there that can compete with an equally competent saxophonist. I love Trane, I play a bunch of his stuff in my own groups, but I don't play it as well as a tenor player who loves Trane will. Now on a traditional jazz gig? Different story. That's my home. That's the trombone's home. NOLA brass band stuff? No contest. In most of those groups the trambones are stomping. Certain big band tunes can not have any substitute for the trombone solo. IGYUMS? I've heard bands give that tbn solo to a sax player, heard it given to a trumpet player. Never works like the real thing. There are certain styles the trombone is more at home with. If one is trying to find their voice on this instrument and feels lost, they should start there. The syntax between the styles isn't as different as people try to make it out to be. If you learn how to speak well in a style you love, it makes it that much easier to translate your ideas to something more foreign or difficult.CharlieB wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:56 pm Even if a virtuoso trombonist overcomes all of these challenges, a trombone will never project the brilliance and excitement of a trumpet or a sax. It's something about the human response to the different timbres. I've seen it over and over. A trombonist can blow his brains out with an incredible improvisation and the audience is ho-hum.
I love bebop and play it every chance i get, but I know what I'm putting out there isn't always going to be as "electrifying" as what the saxophonist may do. That's alright... I get into my JJ vein and milk it for all it's worth, and if I do something particularly memorable, I learn from that. Mostly I learn how hard it is to play Segment at 300...
In Salsa, Timba, and other related styles, the trombone is king. Most of the groups I play in that do these Afro-Caribbean styles, the trombone is the first horn called (and usually the only one if the budget is small.) My stamina used to be pretty amazing because of gigs in these bands. It was constant playing and I usually had more solos than anyone else in the band... it's more akin to the lead tenor book in a big band, just with longer and louder solos. In Cuba, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, etc., you'll find the trombone has a higher sense of place, if you will, in the music. I've never had to buy a drink on those gigs.
Before the Covid hit, a good amount of my work was with jazz groups that also bring a lot of soul and gospel into the music. The vocal quality of the trombone combined with the sheer power of the instrument works great in these "neo-soul jazz" groups.
Well, if all you do is explore the mellow and serene side of the instrument, of course you're not going to excite people in every solo. The role of the trombone in most forms of popular music calls for big and brash just as often, if not more so. Sax and trumpet can be mellow and serene as well... if they do that on a solo when the band is decidedly not serene and mellow, they're not getting any more love than the trombone or anyone else in the band.CharlieB wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:56 pm But let a trumpet or sax player stand up and blow a few riffs and the audience comes alive.
It's something about the way humans respond to different sound frequencies. The low brass is the serene, mellow part of the group that is seldom chosen to showcase it.
JJ didn't play "saxophone lines" in most of his solos - his sound and his sense of swing and rhythm are what gets your attention. Heck, most of his solos are very approachable on the horn. I get all of my trombone students playing JJ solos - there's plenty of variation in difficulty across his body of work. The range is usually more of an issue than the speed of the actual lines, and JJ's range generally doesn't go beyond a high D - most of his stuff doesn't go above high C or Bb. As mentioned earlier, many of JJ's solos are "worked up" - he was a brilliant improvisor but generally knew what he was going to play before he went into the studio (some live stuff I've heard JJ on doesn't even sound like him it's so on another level of genius.) This is more common than a lot of people think. Compare alternate tracks on re-issues. It wasn't just JJ. TLDR: It's okay to work stuff up. This is a language, none of us are making up the words we're typing right now. Also, Swing is defined by the rhythm more-so than the harmonic language. One note in the right place is better than four in the wrong place.
Curtis Fuller plays a lot of stuff that is very approachable. His stuff just lays well, and rarely goes beyond 5th. Dynamically, he's very underrated for the amount of variation in his sound (probably due to the heavy compression on a lot of reissues i've heard). From whisper to shout - he really gets a lot of mileage out his solos, often from a small number of motifs. His "Wee Small Hours" from the Blakey album "Caravan" is the greatest late-night-feelin-sorry-for-yourself song I've ever heard. TLDR: Dynamics and sound are more important than blazing technique.
Rosolino - I can't do Roz, don't even ask me how. I've had one student who could. The approach is more similar to the old school approach (more arpeggiated vs. JJ's linear conception) but using modern harmonic language. His abilities were and still are beyond me (and most trombone players). Occasionally I'll hear him play something I like and know I can play so I'll work it up but generally I just listen to him solely for enjoyment. I have no problem admitting when I'm licked. Generally, if my beginners are into Roz, we work on some other stuff for a while so we can (me included) develop the necessary technique. I never could do lip slurs very well, and doing Roz well requires having those down, really articulate, with excellent time at all tempos. I don't know how many times I've stopped the CD while listening to Roz with a student to exclaim "I have no idea how he is doing that and swinging it so hard, that is so hard to do!" And then I'll hear someone do it and I'm just like "*?*" TLDR: Some people have technical powers you may never develop, but working towards them makes you better. I still can't play his stuff, but my lip slurs have improved tremendously from trying.
Fontana - I used to be able to do him okay-ish, I had a natural doodle tongue I didn't have to work on as much as most people, but this style does not keep well. If you lay off, you lose it. A lot of attention is paid to the fretting and what not by most students, but it's the accurate slide technique at speed (practice them modes and sequences!) that really prepares you for this guy. Not many of his solos I've heard that are "approachable" for beginners, but there is a lot of his stuff that lays easy on the horn if you can handle the speed and the doodle tongue. Other players with similar-ish approaches to the horn (Bob McChesney, Conrad Herwig, Marshall Gilkes for example) have similar technical challenges in their work. Often these are the guys I hear being referred to when someone talks about the difficulty of playing jazz on trombone. Yeah, this approach is incredibly difficult, but it's not impossible. It can all be broken down into patterns to practice (a lot). I took a lesson with Marshall Gilkes about 11 or 12 years ago and he told me a couple of little things that made a huge difference - one of those things (try saying "tuttle" instead of "doo-dle") really helped clarify things in certain registers where my clarity was breaking down. TLDR: Get a lesson with someone you look up to. I do this as often as I can afford the time and money to do it.
Back to the JJ - strain of playing, Slide Hampton is a bit more difficult than JJ and Curtis (for me) but he was my first template for the approach I take to playing salsa. Slide's big sound is the template that much of what I'd call the "modern NYC trombone sound" is based on. I hear his influence (and JJ's of course) being the most common amongst Jazz and Afro-Caribbean musicians coming out of that thing. It's not the only one, of course, NYC gives you a pretty broad sample of aesthetic now-a-days, even in the time of Covid. TLDR: What's your "sound"? A great sound can transcend stylistic concerns. Communicate your truth! Who do you love? What do you love? Play that!
Willie Colon and Jimmy Bosch both have exciting approaches to playing the trombone that translate really well to jazz and most forms of popular music (I prefer Sam's term, Pan-American vernacular music, and use that in my coursework.) Both are known for their work in the Salsa Dura (hard salsa) style - a style that is as much a part of jazz as anything from New Orleans. TLDR: There are no rules against bringing something different to the table as long as you respect the music. So many of the jazz musicians I worship either had Caribbean roots or have actual experience playing other styles of music in addition to jazz.
Teagarden? That stuff's generally quite a bit harder (for some, including me) although there are plenty of his solos that are easy and approachable. Teagarden was all melody. TLDR: Melody was, is, and always will be the primary consideration.
Dorsey? Range makes Dorsey difficult, but most of his songs are very approachable and provide extremely valuable melodic content. In my opinion, knowing at least some Dorsey is absolutely necessary to understanding JJ and his disciples. (And Urbie - jeez.) I remember one of my teachers telling me how huge Dorsey's sound was, how huge JJ's sound was - they weren't just smooth and pristine, they were big and scaled up too. I never could get in the ballpark of that Dorsey sound until I realized I'd been trying to make it too small, too quiet, and that there was a lot more volume there than I thought. TLDR: Sound, sound, sound, sound SOUND!
There used to be a radio station around here that played a lot of old big band stuff from the 30s and 40s. I had never realized how much popular big band literature was out there that featured the trombone so prominently that wasn't Dorsey. TLDR: People have always liked the trombone, they still do. Sometimes context matters...
There are a multitude of approaches to playing the trombone that are successful in improvised music, and not all of them are as difficult as bebop or modern up-tempo straight ahead jazz. If one really wants to be able to rip off blazing flights of fancy at q=350, go for it! Don't feel bad about starting a little slower at first, though. TLDR: Go practice. You'll never be able to hang at some ridiculous tempo on some ridiculous maze of chord changes if you aren't practicing something so much easier, so much slower, right now.
[/quote]
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
-
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:42 am
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Late to this thread, and sorry, but no. The trombone is tough to master, sure—yet countless players have matched its challenges, far too many to dismiss it as futile. If you’ve listened, you’ve heard it.
The trombone’s sound and appeal come from its simple design. Valves can’t and won’t ever replicate the unique beauty of the trombone. Technique is the player’s challenge, but the instrument itself can create some of the most expressive, unforgettable music. A single, beautifully played note can inspire an audience—and the player, too. That’s everything.
And as for exemplars? IDK, Watrous, McChesney, JJ, TB Shorty...the list would fill a library. (I could name-drop players I’ve sat next to who’ve inspired me, but I’ll resist.)
Anyway, thanks for the reminder about why I do this!
The trombone’s sound and appeal come from its simple design. Valves can’t and won’t ever replicate the unique beauty of the trombone. Technique is the player’s challenge, but the instrument itself can create some of the most expressive, unforgettable music. A single, beautifully played note can inspire an audience—and the player, too. That’s everything.
And as for exemplars? IDK, Watrous, McChesney, JJ, TB Shorty...the list would fill a library. (I could name-drop players I’ve sat next to who’ve inspired me, but I’ll resist.)
Anyway, thanks for the reminder about why I do this!
-
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:42 am
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
"In my opinion, the trombone is the true head of the family of wind instruments, which I have named the 'epic' one. It possesses nobility and grandeur to the highest degree; it has all the serious and powerful tones of sublime musical poetry, from religious, calm and imposing accents to savage, orgiastic outburst. Directed by the will of the master, the trombones can chant like a choir of priests, threaten, utter gloomy sighs, a mournful lament, or a bright hymn of glory; they can break forth into awe-inspiring cries and awaken the dead or doom the living with their fearful voices."
—Berlioz.
—Berlioz.
-
- Posts: 2605
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:10 pm
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
What does TLDR mean?
I don’t think Berlioz has much to say about improvising Jazz on trombone.
I don’t think Berlioz has much to say about improvising Jazz on trombone.
- Doug Elliott
- Posts: 3548
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm
- Location: Maryand
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Too Long Don't Read
Which means read it
Which means read it
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
-
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:42 am
-
- Posts: 2605
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:10 pm
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
We did Symphonie Fantastique a couple of years ago. Great piece.snowtraveler wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2025 7:12 pmPerhaps not. Think he has anything to say about music?
-
- Posts: 1097
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:33 pm
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Here's an exercise. Using a lead sheet with modest changes and backing track, play the roots on one. If successful then play a note half step below in front of it, using time in the previous measure. If successful, play the half step down, then minor third up, the half step down, then the root on one as before. If successful add the third after the root. Or the seven. If successful do the same thing from above, 2 4 3 ahead, root on 1. Then you're off and running.
-
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:42 am
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Back-to-basics is exactly what I'm doing, and it's way more fun than say...wait, better not mention anyone's etudes or I'll get flamed.baileyman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 29, 2025 7:56 am Here's an exercise. Using a lead sheet with modest changes and backing track, play the roots on one. If successful then play a note half step below in front of it, using time in the previous measure. If successful, play the half step down, then minor third up, the half step down, then the root on one as before. If successful add the third after the root. Or the seven. If successful do the same thing from above, 2 4 3 ahead, root on 1. Then you're off and running.
Seriously, just focusing on roots with a great sound, pulse and swing is actually quite challenging. It's educational what you can do just playing B-flats over a B-flat blues!
-
- Posts: 2605
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:10 pm
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Take a course, take some lessons.
- UrbanaDave
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:19 am
- Location: Urbana, IL
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Anybody know if the Hal Crook is available in bass clef?Wilktone wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:03 am I'm a big fan of Hal Crook's books "How To Improvise: An Approach To Practicing Improvisation" and "Ready, Aim, Improvise." He points out that a lot of improvisers spend all their time with the "ready, fire, aim" approach. It's a good way to practice using your ear and intuition that way, but progress is slower because you don't set targeted goals.
Dave
It’s a fine line between clever and stupid.
-David St. Hubbins
-David St. Hubbins
- Wilktone
- Posts: 506
- Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:11 pm
- Location: Asheville, NC
- Contact:
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
I don't think Hal Crook's books have a bass clef version. I don't think any of the written out exercises are meant to be read, per se, they are usually just examples of how one might improvise over the exercises.
But it's really a good idea to be proficient at reading treble clef (and C clefs and also transposing by sight to be able to play Bb, Eb, and F transposed parts). I always suggest to all my jazz students that they use concert treble clef fake books, regardless of what instrument they actually play.
But it's really a good idea to be proficient at reading treble clef (and C clefs and also transposing by sight to be able to play Bb, Eb, and F transposed parts). I always suggest to all my jazz students that they use concert treble clef fake books, regardless of what instrument they actually play.
- UrbanaDave
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:19 am
- Location: Urbana, IL
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Thanks, David!
It’s a fine line between clever and stupid.
-David St. Hubbins
-David St. Hubbins
-
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:53 am
- Location: Italy
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Hi Folks.
I studied at Berklee College for two semesters, and during the second I had classes with Hal Crook . I took with him a Jazz impro techniques class , and an ensemble ( three trombones plus Rh. Section) . Then I had ten private lessons with him , at his house.
At the time the reference book was " How to Improvise" .
The examples you was talking about were recorded , on two tapes , by Hal Coook on piano . Those tapes were included on the item.
I think that it would be better to listen to them ( if possible) , and then play it very carefully , because they really show what Hal Crook was meaning about the differents topics of the book . Those examples are really helpful , in my opinion .
Furthermore , some of them are built over famous standards ' , or master' jazz players originals ' , chords progressions : to say , on Section II , example 31 is based upon " Solar" ; example 28 of Section III is based on " Green Dolphin Street" ; example 9 on Section V is based on " Groovin High" ; etc. So you can get some ideas for your performances .
Hal Crook is a fabulous musician , trombone player , and teacher !
Regards
Giancarlo
I studied at Berklee College for two semesters, and during the second I had classes with Hal Crook . I took with him a Jazz impro techniques class , and an ensemble ( three trombones plus Rh. Section) . Then I had ten private lessons with him , at his house.
At the time the reference book was " How to Improvise" .
The examples you was talking about were recorded , on two tapes , by Hal Coook on piano . Those tapes were included on the item.
I think that it would be better to listen to them ( if possible) , and then play it very carefully , because they really show what Hal Crook was meaning about the differents topics of the book . Those examples are really helpful , in my opinion .
Furthermore , some of them are built over famous standards ' , or master' jazz players originals ' , chords progressions : to say , on Section II , example 31 is based upon " Solar" ; example 28 of Section III is based on " Green Dolphin Street" ; example 9 on Section V is based on " Groovin High" ; etc. So you can get some ideas for your performances .
Hal Crook is a fabulous musician , trombone player , and teacher !
Regards
Giancarlo