Contemporary jazz players

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tbdana
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by tbdana »

jacobgarchik wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 11:34 am I totally get the impulse to struggle with listening to players with technical issues...I have a pretty wide latitude for this sort of thing, which is why I love Miles at the plugged nickel or late coltrane at his most searching, precision be damned phases.

but again, back to the topic at hand, there are plenty of forward thinking young players who do have a very exacting technique, i don't think it's a generational thing.

plus I always tell students, technique can mean many things...there is mastery of improvisational technique as well as mastery of instrumental facility.
I admit to having a bias for cleanliness in playing. For me, if technique is sloppy it takes away from whatever ideas a soloist has, and I think, "Well, I like your ear, but you clearly can't play what you're trying to play, so simplify it until you can." And for sure, sloppy trombone jazz is virtually unlistenable to lay people, who hear technique long before they grapple with concepts of improvisational content.

With my bias for clean playing, I also have the philosophy that simple and clean melodies are better than impressive licks that are sloppy. Indeed, I think simple and melodic is often better than impressive and intellectual. And, though I am by no means a great jazz player, I bring that philosophy into my own playing. If I can't play it cleanly, I back off and play something simpler that sounds clean. That's just me.

That said, my all-time favorite GOAT jazz trombone player was Frank Rosolino, who was anything but clean in his playing. Man, his solos were full of soul, and angst, and passion, and IMHO he was the best trombone jazz player who ever lived. Yet, he wasn't clean. I would have preferred him clean, but what he gave us was SO GOOD that the sloppiness actually added to the soul of his solos. But that's Frank. I know of exactly zero trombonists who have been able to replicate that.
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WilliamLang
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by WilliamLang »

I personally love the UHOP players, the best of the bunch from the various bands can give anyone a run for their money imho. It's not a very contemporary style in terms of evolution of jazz, but it certainly is being made today.

Rosolino, JJ, Watrous, Urbie, for whatever reason just never moved me in my heart, even though I see why they are masters. I do like the older Ellington and Louie sidemen a bit more for my taste, but not truly loving those seminal figures was a big reason in me stepping out of jazz as a career path.

Outside of that, Jacob is probably my favorite jazz trombonist (as I've had the chance to tell him in person, at our kid's old playground!) and I also also earnestly love Wycliffe and Trombone Shorty. From the contemporary avant-garde school of jazz (analogous to contemporary technique on classical trombone) I like George Lewis' Braxton recordings above all. Not much else has caught my ear on the avant side, Manglesdorf included.
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EriKon
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by EriKon »

tbdana wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 12:18 pm
jacobgarchik wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 11:34 am I totally get the impulse to struggle with listening to players with technical issues...I have a pretty wide latitude for this sort of thing, which is why I love Miles at the plugged nickel or late coltrane at his most searching, precision be damned phases.

but again, back to the topic at hand, there are plenty of forward thinking young players who do have a very exacting technique, i don't think it's a generational thing.

plus I always tell students, technique can mean many things...there is mastery of improvisational technique as well as mastery of instrumental facility.
I admit to having a bias for cleanliness in playing. For me, if technique is sloppy it takes away from whatever ideas a soloist has, and I think, "Well, I like your ear, but you clearly can't play what you're trying to play, so simplify it until you can." And for sure, sloppy trombone jazz is virtually unlistenable to lay people, who hear technique long before they grapple with concepts of improvisational content.

With my bias for clean playing, I also have the philosophy that simple and clean melodies are better than impressive licks that are sloppy. Indeed, I think simple and melodic is often better than impressive and intellectual. And, though I am by no means a great jazz player, I bring that philosophy into my own playing. If I can't play it cleanly, I back off and play something simpler that sounds clean. That's just me.

That said, my all-time favorite GOAT jazz trombone player was Frank Rosolino, who was anything but clean in his playing. Man, his solos were full of soul, and angst, and passion, and IMHO he was the best trombone jazz player who ever lived. Yet, he wasn't clean. I would have preferred him clean, but what he gave us was SO GOOD that the sloppiness actually added to the soul of his solos. But that's Frank. I know of exactly zero trombonists who have been able to replicate that.
Very interesting to read! And this would be a great topic for a new thread spinning around that. Something I think a lot about for my playing too, because I always wish to be technically cleaner. But I don't really enjoy listening to super clean players. I admire it but I don't entirely enjoy it and to me super clean playing can lead to everything sounding similar and therefore there's a chance of the music getting boring. And I'm definitely not saying that it always is like that. But in a jazz context I would rather like to hear someone going to their technical limits for a musical expression they're trying to achieve rather than someone staying within a small circle to stay clean at all costs. Listening to Rosolino is a great example for that as being mentioned. I would throw in listening to someone like Miles Davis or especially Freddie Hubbard. There are several Freddie recordings or live videos where he's aiming for a high note and misses it. The great thing is how he sticks to the idea and plays with the fact of him missing that note in either trying to aim for that note again and again or using this to get a constant sound of high notes instead of a line that is being high. And those players are the most exciting to me and the ones that I want to hear when I go into a jazz club. If someone plays Body and Soul accompanied by a string orchestra this definitely changes tho.
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tbdana
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by tbdana »

Erik, you nailed it when you observed that people who are clean "at all costs" sometimes have no soul in their playing and get boring fast. That definitely happens. I think Carl Fontana and Bill Watrous suffered from that at times. Still, I'd rather listen to Carl's or Bill's boring precision than whatever it is Roswell Rudd did. :D

There has to be a give and take. No one ever played a great solo who was trying to be safe and not take any risks. Mistakes or sloppiness are part of playing jazz, and sometimes they make a solo stand out. Still, on balance, I prefer one who plays a generally clean solo over one who plays a generally sloppy solo. That's my bias. We all have our own.

And Freddie Hubbard missing a high note and using it as part of his form is just masterful. The missed note becomes a focal point of the solo development. That happened with Rosolino on "I Just Don't Want To Run Around Anymore," where he misses a high note and then goes for it three more times, and it just makes the solo better as it adds such tension and soul. You're rooting for him when he goes for it again, and thrilled when he hits it. That's wonderful artistry from folks who have the chops, the knowledge and the ears to turn a mistake into an advantage. Freddie and Frank were absolute masters at stuff like that. Players like that are rare.

But Freddie didn't play sloppy all the time, throughout entire solos, like some trombonists do and call it their "style." I get that trombone is harder than trumpet or sax for jazz, but to me you have to play the horn before you can play the jazz. Some folks are drawn to that sloppy/edgy/out-of-control style. I'm just not one of them.
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whyking
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by whyking »

baileyman wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 5:29 am
Is he Eliot Mason influenced? Doesn't work for me. Kind of a blah blah sound, which I guess some people want. I'd rather hear sparkling rhythm, which he could apply to some of his impressive lines to good effect. I think he "steps outside" in unhelpful ways, but he gets back in, so I guess he really hears that stuff. Needs more variety, articulation, rhythm, dynamics/accenting. He does employ useful tension, as long as he stays inside. Maybe this style is from the schools? Is this how the profs now play? I can't help but think it's almost divorced from a lot of the tradition. Maybe this comes out of sax style?
I know some semi-profs who play like this. But there are other young working trombonists in LA who do movie sessions and play with great time. I don’t think it’s fair to sideline those guys by completely focusing on the older generation.
jacobgarchik wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2024 11:29 am
bro i got bad news for you about J.J. Johnson!
I just googled him. I bet Jon Hatemeya could play him under the table.
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jacobgarchik
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by jacobgarchik »

whyking wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 5:47 pm I just googled him. I bet Jon Hatemeya could play him under the table.
I'm sure he could, JJ's not doing so much playing nowadays.
Bach5G
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by Bach5G »

“Erik, you nailed it when you observed that people who are clean "at all costs" sometimes have no soul in their playing and get boring fast.”

Bob McChesney (although he did a to die for “The FirstTime…”) can get a little like this for me. Wouldn’t say ‘no soul” though.
Last edited by Bach5G on Sun Dec 08, 2024 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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jacobgarchik
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by jacobgarchik »

WilliamLang wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 2:08 pm I personally love the UHOP players, the best of the bunch from the various bands can give anyone a run for their money imho. It's not a very contemporary style in terms of evolution of jazz, but it certainly is being made today.

Rosolino, JJ, Watrous, Urbie, for whatever reason just never moved me in my heart, even though I see why they are masters. I do like the older Ellington and Louie sidemen a bit more for my taste, but not truly loving those seminal figures was a big reason in me stepping out of jazz as a career path.

Outside of that, Jacob is probably my favorite jazz trombonist (as I've had the chance to tell him in person, at our kid's old playground!) and I also also earnestly love Wycliffe and Trombone Shorty. From the contemporary avant-garde school of jazz (analogous to contemporary technique on classical trombone) I like George Lewis' Braxton recordings above all. Not much else has caught my ear on the avant side, Manglesdorf included.
Hey thanks!!!!

Both George Lewis and Braxton are great examples of musicians who are virtuosos who play on the very edge of what their technique allows and sometimes go past what they can safely play. A different kind of virtuosity.

Compare with, say, Stan Getz, or Michael Brecker - you get the sense that no matter what they are playing, with significant virtuosic technique, they are always within their capabilities.

worthwhile to ponder which approach is most appealing and why.

as for Trombone Shorty, he's a good example of breaking the rule of "most people prefer clean technique" - and I think he's a remarkable player, with remarkable popular appeal.
mbarbier
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by mbarbier »

A current player I really love is Kalia Vandever. Wonderful playing, keeps it simple and just incredibly beautiful while playing inventive stuff.

I'm with Will that Mangelsdorf never did it for me, but Dick Griffen really does. 8th Wonder of the World is some truly lovely playing with incredible multiphonics.

George Lewis is my absolute favorite. Genius in pretty much every sense. Saw him give a lecture yesterday fully in fluent German. Seems like his brain has no bounds, creatively or academically.
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baileyman
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by baileyman »

Nice. Glad to find out about him.
Thom
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by Thom »

My 2 cents worth: Troy Andrews, aka "Trombone Shorty".
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Cmillar
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by Cmillar »

Michael Nelson, of 'Hornheads' and Prince fame, and now the arranger of Cory Wong's awesome horn section.

He builds on Fred Wesley and other funky players, and whatever he plays fits the music...with technique to burn.

Plus, check out his older playing in his own 'Hornheads' recordings.

Fantastic to say the least, and musical.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by Doug Elliott »

Not exactly current since he's been gone a long time, but I don't think anybody has mentioned Eje Thelin, one of my favorites.
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Joebone
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by Joebone »

Interesting thread, and in the next few weeks hoping to check out some of these folks who are new to me. That said, what started as discussion of "young" vs. "old" has manifested other dividing lines: "clean" vs. "less than clean," and numerous stylistic divisions that transcend young vs. old. Albert Mangelsdorf is long gone; but while he opened up new forms and means of expression, there are younger players with no interest in his path, who may instead be interested in perfecting bop-based performance, ultra-clean Urbie/Watrous stylings, etc. The big news is that they ALL are valid, so long as there is a spark of feeling and humanity, rather than hearing well-machined ball bearings racing along a course. If Urbie-stuff is truly who you are, I'm all for it so long as I can hear and feel your musical intentions in some way. And if your headspace is drawn to Roswell Rudd growlings and rabbit holes, that's also very cool - you might have trouble supporting yourself without a day gig unless you can also perform consistent with conventional standards, but if that's your path, then pursue accordingly! I guess the ideal trombonist is like that album cover from Orchestra Baobab: "Specialists in all Styles!"

And in trying to think this through, I'm wondering if it's worth considering whether "reach" vs. "perfection" is of value as an analytic dyad. Personally, I've generally been drawn to performers -- across jazz and other art forms -- who are reaching for the purest expression of their feelings and intentions. If you're Picasso, or Coltrane, or John McLaughlin, and your technical prowess and visionary instincts are highly evolved and in equipoise, well, there you have it! If not, but what you're doing still has coherence and expressive force, then go for it. Meanwhile, three data points that perhaps obscure the line between clean and compelling:

** The first few notes of Miles' solo on "Saeta," off of "Sketches of Spain." Certainly not "clean," but perhaps the most evocative notes in all of jazz. The man had a feeling or concept that he was driven to deliver, no matter how he got there.

** Freddie Hubbard and Lee Morgan squaring off in a 23-minute rendition of "Pensativa," on a live album called "Night of the Cookers" - it's like Ali-Frazer, demonstrating mutual triumph as two great trumpeters push their limits - and each other - in ways that go beyond higher/louder/faster.

** Jimmy Knepper's "Cunningbird" album, throughout which Knepper presents unique tone, phrasing and timefeel -- and some very cool compositions - all of which is so completely his own.

And there's so much more, through all of the tributary styles that feed the ongoing river of "Jazz." I'll always respect - and sometimes envy - the zillion 'bonists who can play circles around me...but the material I keep coming back to generally shows curiosity or intentionality of musical expression in the moment, rather than sticking with the program. My favorite definition of Jazz - the sound of surprise.
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by Bach5G »

I am pleased to see Steve Davis’ name above. He has a new album out, We See, that I’ve listened to a bit. When asked who my favourite trombone players are, I am usually stuck for an answer, but Mr. Davis certainly is on a very short list of players I find listenable.

This led me to wonder whether Steve Turre is still active.

Maybe these guys are easy listening, rather than contemporary, trombonists. What’s in a name? A rose etc.
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jacobgarchik
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by jacobgarchik »

Bach5G wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 3:57 pm
Maybe these guys are easy listening, rather than contemporary, trombonists. What’s in a name? A rose etc.
damn, if those guys are easy listening...
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EriKon
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by EriKon »

Bach5G wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 3:57 pm
This led me to wonder whether Steve Turre is still active.
He did a concert over here in Hamburg, Germany at the Philharmonic last year and a clinic as well. I wasn't there unfortunately because I had gigs myself. A pity...
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EriKon
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by EriKon »

Bach5G wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 3:57 pm Maybe these guys are easy listening, rather than contemporary, trombonists. What’s in a name? A rose etc.
I wouldn't add Steve D. to a list of contemporary trombone players but to a list of more traditional / post bop players. I haven't listened to that much recordings with him but everything I heard was mostly standards with an approach that is similar to JJ or Curtis Fuller in their peak years (and other players from those periods). Nicely executed of course, but not what should be meant by "contemporary".
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jacobgarchik
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by jacobgarchik »

Contemporary is a moving target...Turre has done a wide variety of playing. Avant garde stuff, even.

The original poster makes me think they are looking for a certain type of swinging or groove oriented linearity, as opposed to more timbral exploration, abstracted rhythm, or post modern takes. All of which I might consider contemporary. Even a bebop record could be contemporary if done with a certain panache.

Some of these people have never done albums under their own names. I say this not to complain but to cheerlead! More trombone-led albums please. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I like a quality product, album length, not just a link to a single tune at a gig on youtube. Actually amazing how well known some of these players have gotten merely from youtube videos.
Bach5G
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by Bach5G »

Davis sounds very much like Curtis Fuller on the latest. Covers All Blues and Milestones.
GGJazz
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by GGJazz »

Hi.

Well , considering that OP mentioned also Nils Wogran and Elliot Mason , it seem to me that he doesn' t want to include only musicians that are reserchers of new musical path still unexplored ...

Mason is 47 , and Wogran is 51 , I guess ; they play deep , modern , Jazz music .
So , in my opinion , "contemporary jazz players" could mean " trombone players still active" in a modern jazz context , that can include also post - bop players , as Steve Davis .

Anyway , I think that everything " far away from the tradition" , that is played nowadays , is taken and processed from the 1960/1970 . About 60/65 years ago .
Ornette Coleman recorded " The shape of jazz to come" in 1959 ; the Art Ensemble of Chicago is active from the 1969/70 ; etc (I really love these musicians !) .

About trbn players , I think that "avant garde - contemporary- free- etc" musicians are not just a personal and original expression of themselves : they have their roots in Roswell Rudd , George Lewis , and also Craig Harris , etc . As post- bop musicians have their roots in J. J. Johnson , Frank Rosolino , Slide Hampton , etc.

George Lewis (1977) "Cycle"


George Lewis (1976) "Ornithology"


Roswell Rudd (1967) "Everywhere"


Craig Harris (1983) " Aboriginal Affairs"


About the "young" players mentioned above ( as Robinson Khoury , Kalia Vandever , etc) , personally I do not find anything that original or surprising ; it seem to me that what they play have already been listened to over and over again , in the last 20/30 years . My opinion , of course .

Regards
Giancarlo
brumpone
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by brumpone »

After picking up Trombone the first bone gig I attended was Jacob Garchik at CBSO Centre performing The Heavens -- still a huge favourite of mine -- where I heard Richard Foote and Kieran McLeod for the first time. The second time I heard them both was in a bar doing a short set after Moseley Jazz Festival.* I've seen them a bunch of times since, in Young Pilgrims and once as part of Riot Jazz in Manchester. (A guy leaving the Riot Jazz gig was very loudly and favourably comparing Richard with Watrous, which I don't get at all.) Richard gave a mesmerising performance in the Hexagon theatre at the MAC Birmingham; totally unexpected free-jazz improvising with tenor sax player Paul Dunmall, it was phenomenal.

https://youngpilgrimsmusic.bandcamp.com/

Dave Sear has been mentioned once or twice on this site. His Instagram clips of him playing along to crazy sax solos are insanely good. I first saw him at a beer festival in Heavy Beats Brass Band, but most recently at Cherry Reds, playing alongside Mark Nightingale. 2 amazing players together!

https://www.davesear.com/listen

Shannon Barnett was already referenced in this thread. Other players I enjoy listening to are Rosie Turton and Nathaniel Cross (haven't seen him live, sadly), brother of tubist from Sons of Kemet, Theon Cross.

* Speaking of Moseley Jazz Festival, I'm still gutted we were evacuated in 2023 just as Fred Wesley was setting up on stage.
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by mgladdish »

Wow, that Craig Harris album is a hard listen. Both musically and trombonically (of course that's a word).
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jacobgarchik
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by jacobgarchik »

brumpone wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2024 3:54 pm After picking up Trombone the first bone gig I attended was Jacob Garchik at CBSO Centre performing The Heavens -- still a huge favourite of mine -- where I heard Richard Foote and Kieran McLeod for the first time.
Hey cool! Those blokes are awesome.
As is Shannon - I did the Heavens in Cologne with her and her students this past January!
Bach5G
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Re: Contemporary jazz players

Post by Bach5G »

I noticed today that Steve Turre recently released an album called Sanyas (seasonally spell corrected to “Santa’s”) on Smoke Sessions Records.
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