Lay-off

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AndrewMeronek
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Lay-off

Post by AndrewMeronek »

Last week I got laid off from my day gig.

I don't really have any wisdom or questions offhand, I just wanted to share. The prospect of being able to spend at least a little bit of time practicing to my heart's content is really nice.

:cool:

I definitely am thankful that I have this (music) side of my life. Like many of us, I wish there were better and more ways to make a living at it.
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BGuttman
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Re: Lay-off

Post by BGuttman »

My sincere sympathies. I was injured and during my recovery I was laid off from a job I had held for 17 years. Getting a Tech job when you are over 50 is REALLY hard. Don't believe the folks who claim there is no age discrimination. Especially in Tech.

Also, there are a ton of ghost jobs posted. You apply and never hear back, but the listing remains week after week; I wish you good luck finding a new day job.
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Re: Lay-off

Post by AndrewMeronek »

BGuttman wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 5:26 pm Also, there are a ton of ghost jobs posted. You apply and never hear back, but the listing remains week after week; I wish you good luck finding a new day job.
This latest job I actually got through networking, not through scouring job ads. So, pretty similar to picking up music gigs. This is my first line of attack now.
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ghmerrill
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Re: Lay-off

Post by ghmerrill »

BGuttman wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 5:26 pm Getting a Tech job when you are over 50 is REALLY hard. Don't believe the folks who claim there is no age discrimination. Especially in Tech.
Well, yes and no. It depends on the area of tech to some degree, and it depends a LOT on your work history, capabilities, and track record.

My wife is 75 years old, has been retired since 2012 and STILL gets fairly regular pings for genuine jobs (some full time and some contract). She has a lengthy track record (both project and publication) working in the areas of UI/UX design, technical documentation, and running small to large departments in some of the major banks, pharma companies, telecommunications, and large computer companies (IBM and Fujitsu, for example). A lot of this she did as a contractor (because she actually preferred the freedom of that), but several jobs during her working lifetime were normal full-time gigs. So for a lot of that time she was (a) female, and (b) over 50. :roll:

Don't overlook the contract route since you can make a perfectly good career in that way -- including the usual benefits. Make sure you have a good (and well written) résumé, and throw it out to all the contracting firms you can. Cast a wide net. My daughter (after taking 6 months off from a long-term job she'd just gotten dreadfully tired of), took this approach last year, was immediately contacted by several contractors, and in a twist of fate through one of them, landed a permanent full-time job at one of the world's largest risk management companies. Once you make yourself visible in the right way, you just never know how the lightning will strike.

As an aside ... most people have really crappy résumés. It's important to learn how to do a good one -- and one you can easily tweak for each job application. Sometimes a good contracting firm (we typically refer to them as "body shops" in the family :) ) can help a lot with this. But a good résumé is absolutely critical. And aggressive follow-up to any application is always a good idea. Don't expect to just cast your bread upon the waters and catch a job offer on the incoming tide.
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Digidog
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Re: Lay-off

Post by Digidog »

I concur with Bruce: I sincerely sympathise! It's always tough to get laid off, whatever the reasons, and especially if you're not expecting it.

I really hope you will find something new that suits you, and that the process will be smooth.

Just a couple of years ago, 2021, I lost my previous position very suddenly - I got half an hour to accept or reject a buyout offer, meaning I would leave my position immediately - literally quit and go home on the spot. What made it easier then, was that the termination of my position had been in the coming since a couple of months, and the management was abhorrently abysmal, but nevertheless it was tough to all of a sudden be out of a job.

Best wishes!
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Re: Lay-off

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Digidog wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:03 pm Just a couple of years ago, 2021, I lost my previous position very suddenly - I got half an hour to accept or reject a buyout offer, meaning I would leave my position immediately - literally quit and go home on the spot.
That's often the first sign of a company crashing -- and so the job wouldn't have lasted long anyway.

My wife had several experiences like that in the '90s (where she'd call me at work and say "You need to come and pick me up. They're having Security walk me out the door." :lol: (No "buyout offer".) And these were cases where she was running a fairly large department of highly skilled people -- all of whom were flushed in short order. One was what had been a red-hot telecommunications company and second-largest employer in the area (on the fringe of RTP). Growing steadily and aggressively for several years. Alas, it had quickly and aggressively built its code base using C++ and heavy use of class multi-inheritance. It got to a point where they literally couldn't debug it and the whole major project and company collapsed and disappeared in a matter of a few months. The year previously, they'd moved into a new headquarters they'd had built. Live by the technology, die by the technology -- or maybe live by the management, die by the management. :roll:

You just move on and get another job.
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Re: Lay-off

Post by AndrewMeronek »

ghmerrill wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 7:06 am Don't overlook the contract route since you can make a perfectly good career in that way -- including the usual benefits.
I had actually overlooked that some, this sounds like a good idea.
Digidog wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:03 pm . . . and especially if you're not expecting it.
I was definitely surprised. I am (of course) biased, but I'm pretty sure that laying me off will actually cost them a lot more than keeping me on. But that's their business problem now. They didn't even give me a chance to defend myself. Seeing how that was handled, I now think that it probably was better to get out anyway. That's something that can be hard to see when you're wading in the figurative weeds of problem solving details.
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ghmerrill
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Re: Lay-off

Post by ghmerrill »

AndrewMeronek wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 2:20 pm They didn't even give me a chance to defend myself.
??? If they dismissed you "for cause," then you could normally fight that in some way or other -- if you really wanted to. But most employment now (absent some sort of contract) is "at will", and no reason needs to be given. So "defense" doesn't make much sense. And "We've decided to move in a different direction and your position is no longer necessary" ... or some such, is very popular. But they don't even have to say that.
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Re: Lay-off

Post by AndrewMeronek »

ghmerrill wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 2:32 pm ??? If they dismissed you "for cause," then you could normally fight that in some way or other -- if you really wanted to. But most employment now (absent some sort of contract) is "at will", and no reason needs to be given. So "defense" doesn't make much sense. And "We've decided to move in a different direction and your position is no longer necessary" ... or some such, is very popular. But they don't even have to say that.
They did give me a business justification, and I believe that they believed that reasoning. And yes "at will" was in play so they didn't have to even do that. So, at least them giving me a justification could be seen as a final sign of respect . . .

I don't know, this is actually the first time I've been laid off, which come to think of it is probably a bit unusual; I'd imagine that many people get this enjoyable first-time experience earlier in life. Spending a lot of time bouncing around schools and then being in the military (as a trombonist) did make my career path to becoming a Systems Engineer a bit unconventional.
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Re: Lay-off

Post by Dennis »

AndrewMeronek wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2024 5:16 pm Last week I got laid off from my day gig.

I don't really have any wisdom or questions offhand, I just wanted to share. The prospect of being able to spend at least a little bit of time practicing to my heart's content is really nice.

:cool:

I definitely am thankful that I have this (music) side of my life. Like many of us, I wish there were better and more ways to make a living at it.
I'm sorry to hear that. Good luck with the job search.

My friends who did make careers out of the music industry have told me much the same thing: being as good as your last note is stressful, and when you're doing music as your profession, he who pays the piper calls the tune. Several who were still at the scrambling-for-work stage of their career told me that they envied my ability to decline a gig for any reason at all.
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Re: Lay-off

Post by ghmerrill »

Well, I've never been laid of/fired from any of the broad variety of jobs I've had. And neither have my kids. But the wife sure has!! It really depends on circumstances and almost never means anything more than that. And for various kinds of jobs it's more prevalent than for others. A bad economy will also affect lay-offs in often "spotty" ways since some sectors/businesses are more sensitive than others.

And there are just cases where things change in a company and sometimes they either must reduce the workforce or decide to do that for efficiency reasons. In my last job that happened to the international pharma company I was working in, the dictum came down to cut areas by a certain per cent, and it was determined that one of the people who had ended up in my group (via a previous re-org) was the one that needed to be let go. He was an M.D. who had moved over into a kind of "technology evaluation" role that really didn't need to be done. I got the job of firing him, but before I could do it, my VP decided that as a matter of courtesy he would do it. The guy quickly got another job at another international pharma company where he continued to do his unnecessary job. :|
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Re: Lay-off

Post by imsevimse »

I started as a music teacher and have a MFAE in brass instruments (trombone) but decided to change career after 13 years. Did some courses in the evenings for three years and quit the teaching job for a job as programmer/system developer in year 2000. I then lost that first job after 3,5 years in 2003 because the company was in a crisis. I was then 40 years old. The company was small. It had five owners and 11 employees. All employees had to go and the owners tried to scale things down and continue the contracts we had. A couple of years later the company only had two owners and a couple of years thereafter the company was put to end. In 2003 I was unemployed for half a year. It was hard time and economically a catastrophe. I had no college degrees in computer science so could not get another job at that time. I had to study at college level four more years. Got next job 2008. After that I have been fully employed.

Good luck with your search. Hope you find something you like.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Thu Nov 14, 2024 4:22 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Lay-off

Post by JohnL »

ghmerrill wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 3:20 pmThe guy quickly got another job at another international pharma company where he continued to do his unnecessary job. :|
I've never been let go because there wasn't enough work for me to do. I have been let go more than once because there wasn't any money to pay me.
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tbdana
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Re: Lay-off

Post by tbdana »

AndrewMeronek wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 2:38 pm
ghmerrill wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 2:32 pm ??? If they dismissed you "for cause," then you could normally fight that in some way or other -- if you really wanted to. But most employment now (absent some sort of contract) is "at will", and no reason needs to be given. So "defense" doesn't make much sense. And "We've decided to move in a different direction and your position is no longer necessary" ... or some such, is very popular. But they don't even have to say that.
They did give me a business justification, and I believe that they believed that reasoning. And yes "at will" was in play so they didn't have to even do that. So, at least them giving me a justification could be seen as a final sign of respect . . .

I don't know, this is actually the first time I've been laid off, which come to think of it is probably a bit unusual; I'd imagine that many people get this enjoyable first-time experience earlier in life. Spending a lot of time bouncing around schools and then being in the military (as a trombonist) did make my career path to becoming a Systems Engineer a bit unconventional.
Okay, I'm an attorney but don't take this as legal advice. See an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction, this is just for entertainment and general purposes, blah, blah, blah...

Was it a termination or a layoff? Those two terms are different, and the difference is legally significant in most jurisdictions.

Even in an "at will" employment situation, you can be terminated "without reason," but not for an unlawful reason. For instance, if they are terminating all the older employees who make more money and are keeping the younger employees who are cheaper, that could be actionable and you could be entitled to compensation and/or your job back (though at this point it's not wise to go back). The same is true for a number of other possible reasons, depending on jurisdiction.

If you are "laid off" for lack of business, then in most U.S. jurisdictions they are required to rehire you before hiring a new employee to take over your job. It's more complicated in a "restructuring," but the same rules generally apply.

Of course, sometimes companies engage in terminations and improperly call it "layoffs." I don't know what the situation is with you.

Those severance packages are always subject to renegotiation if you have a good basis for it. Good basis usually means they did something unlawful and you have the right to file a lawsuit, but you'll renegotiate the severance to include waiving the right to file the lawsuit you could file. (However, most companies require you to waive all potential legal action against them in exchange for the severance money. And however to that, you can often argue that the the severance agreement can be voided if you weren't offered sufficient opportunity to obtain advice of counsel, etc.) Renegotiating the severance pay to include waiver of your lawsuit rights can sometimes get you substantially more money. I know. I've done many such renegotiations on both sides of that table, and I've also represented employees and employers who have gone to litigation for wrongfully terminating employees (e.g., all the old ones are let go and the younger ones are retained...and even younger ones replacing the terminated older employees).

You'll need an attorney licensed in whatever jurisdiction you're in to evaluate your prospects. I'll tell you that every attorney worth retaining will do a consultation with you for FREE, so you lose nothing by at least showing the severance agreement to an attorney and having a discussion to find out what your legal rights are, whether you decide to exercise them or not.

Good luck!
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Re: Lay-off

Post by AndrewMeronek »

tbdana wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 4:37 pm Was it a termination or a layoff? Those two terms are different, and the difference is legally significant in most jurisdictions.
Lay-off.

I don't think the severance agreement was unfair; I just question their business decision making. I'd rather just move on.
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Re: Lay-off

Post by Kbiggs »

I’ve been laid off, terminated, and left “at will” from different jobs. I’ve been put on a Performance Improvement Plan (although I’ve never heard of someone retaining their job from after being targeted with a PIP). Perhaps I should wear a sign that says, “Does not play well with others,” or “Does not suffer management BS lightly.”

So, I empathize.

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Re: Lay-off

Post by ghmerrill »

Kbiggs wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 5:45 pm Perhaps I should wear a sign that says, “Does not play well with others,” ...
:lol:

I'm sure the sigh isn't really necessary. I think that in every job I've had, I've had performance reviews that contain some version of "Does not always work and play well with others." Even in my academic positions, there were hints of this, though of course it takes a lot more than that to boot you out of a tenured position. There have been two circumstances (one in the tech industry, the other in the pharma industry) where I felt that I came very close to getting fired -- for what are best regarded here as vague "corporate politics" reasons and I was getting in the way by standing on principle. But in each case, nothing came of it because my immediate management backed me up.

If you're in a job with any kind of responsibility at all, and you don't run into this kind of crap at some point, you're probably not doing something right. :roll:
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Re: Lay-off

Post by Digidog »

ghmerrill wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 2:15 pm
Digidog wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:03 pm Just a couple of years ago, 2021, I lost my previous position very suddenly - I got half an hour to accept or reject a buyout offer, meaning I would leave my position immediately - literally quit and go home on the spot.
That's often the first sign of a company crashing -- and so the job wouldn't have lasted long anyway.
That business folded less than a year after I left. Partly because of the affair with my sudden departure, it turned out that the management had mismanaged the entire operation so badly, making them so discredited, that some of them had to leave the country to avoid further investigations from the board and legal authorities.
ghmerrill wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 2:15 pm You just move on and get another job.
I counter offered a deal that I specifically stated I wouldn't budge from, and HR accepted that deal on the spot, despite objections from the management, because they and I knew I was legally at right in the situation and any proceedings in the matter would have cost them tenfold both in a loosing legal case and as compensation to me, so I got off really, really well. I could have gotten an even better deal, but that would have taken time and I didn't want to spend even a second with those dirtbags.
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ghmerrill
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Re: Lay-off

Post by ghmerrill »

Good for you -- and you made some smart choices/moves in that process.
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