old bass trumpet/flugel in e flat

[Nomsis]

I recently was given an old Bass trumpet from a local wind band I play with. It is tuned in e flat and probably a more correct name would be something like alto flugelhorn. It plays great from low to high with only these notes a little stuffy I think this is due to the third valve slide not completely air tight and the valves not perfectly aligned and probably not perfectly air tight as well. Aside from this it is really easy and fun to play and I really like the sound. Only problem is it is really hard to play it in tune. It is possible to lip everything in tune but its very annoying. I play it with a custom made mouthpiece based on a Josef Klier exclusive 7G. I got the mouthpiece used for very cheap (I think I got very lucky there) and the seller said it was special made for a bass trumpet. It feels like a very good fit and the intonation is worse with any other mouthpiece I tried.

Based on some quick research and the circumstances I got this from I suspect the instrument to be from around 1910 to 1930. The name on the badge probably is just a branding from the dealer and not the manufacturer.

Do you think the intonation can be improved? And is the instrument worth to put money into it? I'm unsure because I have no real use for it but it is very fun to play. I have no real problems with the fingerings in e flat because I play alto trombone as well but I think it being in e flat doesn't make it particular useful.

[Finetales]

Many (most?) less common alto and tenor valved brass instruments have intonation problems. Bass trumpets especially are notorious for being an alternate fingering minefield. There is a reason the expensive rotary bass trumpets all have at least one tuning trigger.

The horn is not worth much, so if you like how it plays and sounds you might as well keep it. If creative alternate fingerings still aren't getting you there, you might consider having a couple tuning triggers installed.

[Nomsis]

Yah I was playing around with some alternate fingerings but it wasn't really doing it. I was thinking about some triggers as well, maybe just a main tuning slide trigger but not really convinced that would help a lot. I was seeing the following video (sorry it's in german Edit: but with English subtitles for those who are interested) and I think it's really interesting but not sure if this would be feasible /worth the money on this instrument. In the video the intonation gets greatly improved there on an older and very good playing trumpet with bad intonation.

[JohnL]

The first thing I'd do is to check to see if the valves seal. If the valves are so worn that they won't seal (even with fairly thick oil), it's a wall hanger.
Assuming the valves will seal, the next step would be to check the valve alignment and replace the bumpers as needed.
Step 3 would be to find and fix any leaky joints.

Assuming there's not too many leaks too fix, you shouldn't have to spend too much on any of this, and once it's done, you can give the horn a good try-out to see if it's a "player".

[Nomsis]

I don't think the valves are a problem, I checked them again and they seal ok, they are probably not the most air tight ever but the slides still give a plop and if I blow into the instrument and seal the tube before it enters the bell section with my finger I need to blow very hard before I can hear some small leakage. I have played definitely worse valves. The alignment is not perfect but not far off. Replacing the bumpers and aligning the valves is something I can do myself but at the moment I'm not sure if this is necessary because it seems to be ok. The third valve slide does not seal very well because one leg is a little bit to small, I will try to seal it with some trombotine (other tips are welcome) but that should only affect third valve tones.

[Kbiggs]

Bass trumpets especially [are] notorious for being an alternate fingering minefield.

This is too funny!

I use a Chinese piston bass trumpet when teaching beginning trumpet students. (No one wants to hear me try to play trumpet.) I play in the Bb trumpet range, and I use beginning trumpet fingerings so I don’t confuse students. If I could use alternate fingerings, it would be so much easier. With a 12E mouthpiece, it’s pretty taxing!

[timothy42b]

. I was seeing the following video (sorry it's in german Edit: but with English subtitles for those who are interested) and I think it's really interesting but not sure if this would be feasible /worth the money on this instrument. In the video the intonation gets greatly improved there on an older and very good playing trumpet with bad intonation.

Fascinating video. I've read about the swept wave measurements but never seen it done.

I'd be curious to see some alto trombone curves, these might be very enlightening. It makes me wonder what mouthpiece they were using and how different another one might be.

[fsgazda]

Eb bass trumpet is what Stravinsky wrote for in the Rite of Spring.

[harrisonreed]

Send it to Melanie and have a pitch finder installed. And make sure the valves are aligned.

[Finetales]

Eb bass trumpet is what Stravinsky wrote for in the Rite of Spring.

Yes, but not a large one like that. This looks like a large bore beer hall bass trumpet for either marching use or for German folk music, and isn't the same kind of instrument that Stravinsky wrote for. Stravinsky wanted a proper orchestral bass trumpet in Eb with 4 valves, small bore/bell and a bright trumpet sound.

[brassmedic]

I had a baritone from Markneukirchen. It played extremely out of tune. My friend who is very familiar with European instruments said something to the effect of, "They don't care about tapers". (I think it's a cool horn, though.)

[Nomsis]

Eb bass trumpet is what Stravinsky wrote for in the Rite of Spring.

Interesting, but I never played stravinsky and probaby won't anytime soon

Yes, but not a large one like that. This looks like a large bore beer hall bass trumpet for either marching use or for German folk music, and isn't the same kind of instrument that Stravinsky wrote for. Stravinsky wanted a proper orchestral bass trumpet in Eb with 4 valves, small bore/bell and a bright trumpet sound.

Yes that's true and sorry if this wasn't clear, I'm living in Germany and the instrument is from the local "Musikverein" which is a very typical traditional wind band ("Blaskapelle") here in Germany, traditionally these kind of bands played some marching/military stuff but also folk music as well. (Nowadays many of these "Musikvereine" developed into a more general kind of wind band which play all different kinds of music) The Instrument was in use probably about 100 years ago together with some other instruments in e flat like "french horns" (these were played with the right hand instead of the left hand) and tubas which were also very common in e flat. None of these instruments are in common use any more but it's not for to long (20 years?) the horns and tubas in e flat were still in regular use. For the bass trumpet above I think this one really wasn't used for a very long time and I never in my life saw one of these used in any "Musikverein" here in Germany.

The instrument has a bore of about 11 to 11.5mm at the main tuning slide and starts getting bigger from there. The bell is 19cm. It's probably more of like a flugelhorn and their counterparts in B-flat are getting low level popular in some folk music groups recently, look for example here:
I think in this scenario is where the e flat instrument could be used as well for the first tenor voice. I really like the sound of these instruments.

Send it to Melanie and have a pitch finder installed. And make sure the valves are aligned.

who is Melanie and what is a pitch finder? if this is a technician in the us this is probably not a good idea because I live in Germany.

I had a baritone from Markneukirchen. It played extremely out of tune. My friend who is very familiar with European instruments said something to the effect of, "They don't care about tapers". (I think it's a cool horn, though.)

Markneukirchen was and still is home to a very large number of excellent and some not so excellent instrument makers. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musikwinkel
(sorry only available in german but maybe your browser can translate this.)

[harrisonreed]

A pitch finder is a lever for moving the main tuning slide. I guess don't send it to Melanie, but maybe try that awesome shop in the German video above.

[Nomsis]

Ah I get it, it's a tuning slide trigger! (: Yes I'm thinking about this.

[Doug Elliott]

However, in that video all of the instruments are Bb judging by fingerings..

[harrisonreed]

Looking at it though, where is the main tuning slide? It goes out towards the players face? That might be weird.

[Nomsis]

yes they are in Bb, Eb is not so common but the sound is very similar. So a higher part could probaly played with an Eb instrument I think. I've even seen that somewhere, just can't find it at the moment. But for sure it's more of finding a problem for a solution (:
But otherwise I tested it already in a trombone ensemble on the first part and it blended quite nice (of course the not so good intonation wasn't ideal)

[Nomsis]

Looking at it though, where is the main tuning slide? It goes out towards the players face? That might be weird.

yes it is going toward the players face, it would for sure need some creativity, but I think it should be possible, at least a few centimetres.

[Finetales]

So a higher part could probaly played with an Eb instrument I think. I've even seen that somewhere, just can't find it at the moment.

Here's an example, it's made its way to this forum before.

[Chronos91]

Yah I was playing around with some alternate fingerings but it wasn't really doing it. I was thinking about some triggers as well, maybe just a main tuning slide trigger but not really convinced that would help a lot. I was seeing the following video (sorry it's in german Edit: but with English subtitles for those who are interested) and I think it's really interesting but not sure if this would be feasible /worth the money on this instrument. In the video the intonation gets greatly improved there on an older and very good playing trumpet with bad intonation.

That was really cool. I'd be interested in learning more about that software and what kind of instrumentation was used for that sweep. I'll have to look around for that. I think the most you could really do economically along these lines, though, would be try a different leadpipe that still fit. And given the shape and likelihood that the dimensions don't really match anything else, you're likely out of luck. I actually bought two similar instruments to this earlier in the year, but mine leak horribly in the valves so I can't really use either.

[DougHulme]

I speak in ignorance but surely this is like a marching version of what we English call a tenor horn, the Americans Alto Horn (discussion elsehwere on this subject). Our tenor horns are in Eb and are of similar proportions (maybe bore?) therefor this could be used in a brass band to play the Eb tenor horn parts. Which are often aligned to the Bb flugel horn... Just thinking out loud... Doug

[dukesboneman]

Here`s a Picture of the Alto Flugel horn I bought a few years ago.
Plays great . I have it tuned in Eb but also goes into F
Doug Elliott made this great mouthpiece for it with a special shank

[mazman]

Looks like a rotary flugel to me. The bell looks fairly conical.

[Nomsis]

So a higher part could probaly played with an Eb instrument I think. I've even seen that somewhere, just can't find it at the moment.

Here's an example, it's made its way to this forum before.

Nice, Bernhard Holl is also a great trombone player by the way. I have seen him playing this instrument before but I always assumed it is in Bb. How do you know it's in Eb? I'm bad at reading fingerings and judging by tube length is not easy as well because in the videos one does not really get good views on the tubing. It's build a little smaller than most other of these instruments but that doesn't mean it couldn't be in Bb. Here is another video of him playing that instrument:

[Nomsis]

Yah I was playing around with some alternate fingerings but it wasn't really doing it. I was thinking about some triggers as well, maybe just a main tuning slide trigger but not really convinced that would help a lot. I was seeing the following video (sorry it's in german Edit: but with English subtitles for those who are interested) and I think it's really interesting but not sure if this would be feasible /worth the money on this instrument. In the video the intonation gets greatly improved there on an older and very good playing trumpet with bad intonation.

That was really cool. I'd be interested in learning more about that software and what kind of instrumentation was used for that sweep. I'll have to look around for that. I think the most you could really do economically along these lines, though, would be try a different leadpipe that still fit. And given the shape and likelihood that the dimensions don't really match anything else, you're likely out of luck. I actually bought two similar instruments to this earlier in the year, but mine leak horribly in the valves so I can't really use either.

It's a really interesting topic, Engelbert Schmid which is a german horn maker made a longer video showing and explaining this system a little bit some years ago. It's not the best video because he is really self centered and every second sentence is why he is much better than anyone else. It was interesting though but sadly it's in german as well. He's mentioning his system coming from TU Braunschweig if I'm remembering correctly.

[Nomsis]

I speak in ignorance but surely this is like a marching version of what we English call a tenor horn, the Americans Alto Horn (discussion elsehwere on this subject). Our tenor horns are in Eb and are of similar proportions (maybe bore?) therefor this could be used in a brass band to play the Eb tenor horn parts. Which are often aligned to the Bb flugel horn... Just thinking out loud... Doug

yes I know these exist but in my opinion the sound colour is completely different, but it might work in some situations but then almost no brass bands exist here (:

[Nomsis]

Here`s a Picture of the Alto Flugel horn I bought a few years ago.
Plays great . I have it tuned in Eb but also goes into F
Doug Elliott made this great mouthpiece for it with a special shank

Nice that looks very similar of dimensions, do you know the bore and bell size?

[Finetales]

How do you know it's in Eb? I'm bad at reading fingerings and judging by tube length is not easy as well because in the videos one does not really get good views on the tubing. It's build a little smaller than most other of these instruments but that doesn't mean it couldn't be in Bb.

The fingerings in both the video I linked and the one you did are Eb fingerings.

[JohnL]

I speak in ignorance but surely this is like a marching version of what we English call a tenor horn, the Americans Alto Horn (discussion elsehwere on this subject). Our tenor horns are in Eb and are of similar proportions (maybe bore?) therefor this could be used in a brass band to play the Eb tenor horn parts. Which are often aligned to the Bb flugel horn.

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, there was a similar instrument called a "solo alto" that was used in American bands. They don't seem to have ever been particularly common; there's lots of circular alto/mellophones out there and lots of Eb upright alto/tenor horns, but very few solo altos.

[Nomsis]

How do you know it's in Eb? I'm bad at reading fingerings and judging by tube length is not easy as well because in the videos one does not really get good views on the tubing. It's build a little smaller than most other of these instruments but that doesn't mean it couldn't be in Bb.

The fingerings in both the video I linked and the one you did are Eb fingerings.

Ok nice, thanks for the information, I was living there in ignorance for a while. And funny enough that his instrument is always named just bass trumpet which obviously is not very accurate

[Finetales]

Ok nice, thanks for the information, I was living there in ignorance for a while. And funny enough that his instrument is always named just bass trumpet which obviously is not very accurate

Well, it is a bass trumpet. Just one in Eb!

[AtomicClock]

So...accurate, but not precise.