Flat Rim

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JMartinez0
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Flat Rim

Post by JMartinez0 »

What are some good examples of mouthpieces with a flat rim? I want to try some out though don't know where to start. Also, what are the benefits/downsides of a flat rim?

Thank you.
HornboneandVocals
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by HornboneandVocals »

Tried a alessi of some sort at a shop once. A wide flat rim I felt I could cook an egg on. To my knowledge the benefits are comfort and articulation. It was unbelievably uncomfortable for me, but I have a specifically rounded rim.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by Doug Elliott »

The regular Wicks have a pretty flat rim.
Schilke 51C4 (the 4 designates a semi-flat rim).
Some Giddings mouthpices have a flat rim.
The rim shape that I use for my mouthpieces is flatter than most.

Flat rims spread the contact over a wider area which minimizes the efect of pressure. Rounded rims like most Bachs tend to concentrate pressure on the high spot of the rim curvature, which can decrease endurance and potentially cause injury. The same is true if the inner edge is too sharp. I put a lot of thought into my rim shape, which is why it's often said to be the most comfortable.
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harrisonreed
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by harrisonreed »

HornboneandVocals wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:42 pm Tried a alessi of some sort at a shop once. A wide flat rim I felt I could cook an egg on. To my knowledge the benefits are comfort and articulation. It was unbelievably uncomfortable for me, but I have a specifically rounded rim.
I have a scan of an Alessi mouthpiece - the high point is actually right along the rim edge, and it slopes lower as you move away from the rim. So not "flat", per se, but depending on how you angle you will have a big flat crescent on either your upper or lower lip.

I think the advantage is that you get a very stable anchor on either your upper or lower lip, which will keep your face locked into the pitch. The disadvantage is that the high point along the rim can be uncomfortable and if you fight the mouthpiece locking your face in position, you will tire out pretty fast.
Rusty
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by Rusty »

A few pieces I’ve come across with what I’d describe as flat rims:

- AR Resonance pieces (fairly narrow but flat)
- Schilke 47B (wide)
- Patrick BG5
- Wicks
- Hammonds are on the flatter side
- a few Yamahas a flatter than others (51C4 springs to mind)

I usually like the articulations I get with Bach rims, but they start to feel uncomfortable after a while. I’ve also had some pieces with a sharper inner bite which also don’t ever work out longer term. I also feel Doug’s rims hit a nice sweet spot of flatness and overall comfort.
Last edited by Rusty on Thu Jun 06, 2024 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bach5G
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by Bach5G »

DE wrote: Schilke 51C4 (the 4 designates a semi-flat rim).

What DE cup/shank would be similar to a Schilke 51C4?
hyperbolica
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by hyperbolica »

Bach5G wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 7:27 am DE wrote: Schilke 51C4 (the 4 designates a semi-flat rim).

What DE cup/shank would be similar to a Schilke 51C4?
Doug's Comparison chart says LT101E (probably an 8 shank)
http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/s ... chart.html
HornboneandVocals
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by HornboneandVocals »

harrisonreed wrote: Thu Jun 06, 2024 7:00 am
HornboneandVocals wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:42 pm Tried a alessi of some sort at a shop once. A wide flat rim I felt I could cook an egg on. To my knowledge the benefits are comfort and articulation. It was unbelievably uncomfortable for me, but I have a specifically rounded rim.
I have a scan of an Alessi mouthpiece - the high point is actually right along the rim edge, and it slopes lower as you move away from the rim. So not "flat", per se, but depending on how you angle you will have a big flat crescent on either your upper or lower lip.

I think the advantage is that you get a very stable anchor on either your upper or lower lip, which will keep your face locked into the pitch. The disadvantage is that the high point along the rim can be uncomfortable and if you fight the mouthpiece locking your face in position, you will tire out pretty fast.
Fascinating! I think I fell into the latter situation. Thank you!
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Geordie
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by Geordie »

Doug Elliott wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:44 pm Snip
I put a lot of thought into my rim shape, which is why it's often said to be the most comfortable.
The most comfortable in my experience of many years playing. Teamed with the right cup and shank my DE piece was a total game changer for me in terms of range and endurance building.
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EriKon
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by EriKon »

Wicks are definitely flat. I find the Heritage series even more flat. Some like it, some like it not.
Kbiggs
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by Kbiggs »

It’s been a while since I played a Wick. IIRC, the inner rim of the Wick slopes downward gradually rather than a sharp edge. The inner edge of the rim feels “softer” than a Bach or a Schilke 51C4, or even a stock 51.
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JMartinez0
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by JMartinez0 »

Thank you all for the replies and information. I'm starting to find myself in situations where I'll be playing for longer than 2 hours. So as my chops increase in strength, I want to find something suitable and comfortable.

Thank you.
OneTon
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by OneTon »

Doug is on point. After 30+ years on a Schilke 47 I switched to a Bach 11C. I can feel the more rounded rim on the Bach better. And therefore play with less pressure and better endurance. Some things can be counterintuitive for some people. A Schilke 47 is a good mouthpiece.
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LeTromboniste
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by LeTromboniste »

Flat rims...

Just to show the extreme case, here are the two mouthpieces I'm playing tonight.

Image

Rim on the bass piece (right) is 6.825mm or 0.269" wide.
On the tenor piece (left) it's 7.9mm or 0.311" wide (!!).
Both as flat as it gets with virtually no rounding of the edges. Yet extremely comfortable to play!
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by Doug Elliott »

Flat with a sharp edge can be comfortable until you have to play loud or high for an extended time and end up using more pressure. There was a time when I played on rims just like that, and then thinner but still flat... but I changed.
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LIBrassCo
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by LIBrassCo »

LeTromboniste wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:12 am Flat rims...

Just to show the extreme case, here are the two mouthpieces I'm playing tonight.

Image

Rim on the bass piece (right) is 6.825mm or 0.269" wide.
On the tenor piece (left) it's 7.9mm or 0.311" wide (!!).
Both as flat as it gets with virtually no rounding of the edges. Yet extremely comfortable to play!

Oof, no thanks. All my rims have a strong radius and nice crown. They are made to be extremely comfortable, that is the single most important part of a mouthpiece.
Check out our new bass trombone doubling mouthpieces: https://www.librassco.com/broadway-bass
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LeTromboniste
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by LeTromboniste »

LIBrassCo wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 7:02 pm Oof, no thanks. All my rims have a strong radius and nice crown. They are made to be extremely comfortable, that is the single most important part of a mouthpiece.
What about this one
Image
Image

..... :lol:

Based on a 15th century original, made of 7 parts brazed together, all from flat sheet brass – shank and sleeves rolled and seamed, cup formed into a cone and seamed, rim and supportive ring right underneath the ring are discs cut from flat sheet.

Gives another meaning to "flat rim"!
Maximilien Brisson
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Hfk Bremen/University of the Arts Bremen
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by Doug Elliott »

The ornamentation on that horn is great!
And the seam on the bell is part of it.
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harrisonreed
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Re: Flat Rim

Post by harrisonreed »

That horn looks beautiful. The mouthpiece though, yikes!
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