"Early" Conn trombones

[BflatBass]

After spotting a used 1921 model baritone on Facebook the other day (a friend is looking for a used horn), I started wondering about some C.G. Conn history.
So I went to Wikipedia looking for some history on C.G. Conn and after reading most of the article I thought I'd get on here and ask about trombones made by Conn prior to their bankruptcy sale in 1969.

Are the Conn trombones made in the early 20th century highly sought after and if they are what for? Craftsmanship or just vintage charm or is it because certain models that aren't made anymore have a unique playing characteristic that certain individuals just like more than others? And I'm talking about horns made by C.G. Conn Ltd after they incorporated in 1915. Anyone own a trombone of that vintage? How's the overall quality?
Does anyone know if there were any changes in the manufacturing between the bankruptcy and the incorporation that affected overall quality?

I know there are some ppl on here with quite a breadth of knowledge about trombone lineage and I'm just trying to tap into a little bit of it. I find it interesting.

Cheers,
Robert

[BGuttman]

I own several old Conns.

Many of the pro line are made quite well. Especially some of the older Bass trombones. I'll leave it to folks like Chris Stearn (Fossil) and Leif (Savio) to expound on that.

I own a Conn 40H "Ballroom". It's 0.500" bore, built with Tuning in Slide and a shortened bell (supposedly for easier mute insertion). It plays very well, but the TIS mechanism makes the slide rather heavy. I'm sure if you want to play Be-Bop it's going to hold you back. Engraving on mine is interesting although it's not as nice as some of the Sternberg horns. It plays a lot bigger than its bore and bell would seem.

I played a 44H Vocabell (belonged to a band I was a member of). Again, well-made. Very unusual design. The bell is a bit thicker than normal but is made without a bell rim. As a result they are often referred to as "razor bell" instruments although the edge is nowhere near as sharp as a razor.

Old Conns are good players if they are in good condition. They may suit your playing or not. You really have to try one to see what you think.

[Oslide]

You mention Wikipedia, but in this case the "Conn Loyalist" is a great source of information.
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/

[Posaunus]

The Conn trombones fabricated in Elkhart, Indiana until that production was moved to Abilene, Texas (in ~1972) were of legendary quality, and are still highly sought after – especially the Elkhart Conn 88Hs. The bass trombones of that era are equally praised and prized.

[dxhall]

I have a 1916 Conn trombone. It’s silver, has a serial number, but no model number.

The quality seems high, and the engraving is very nice but not extravagant. I bought it because I have been reading about 20s and 30s jazz, and wanted to see whether the horns used by jazz players like Miff Mole sounded like modern horns.

Unsurprisingly, the sound is quite a bit different. Listen to Miff and His Little Molers on “You’re the Cream in my Coffee” (1928). He’s playing loud to be heard on the 1920s recording equipment, and the small bore size really puts an edge to his notes.

When I needed single-vision eyeglasses so that I could see the notes on a music stand, I bought frames just like Miff’s. Still can’t play like he did, though.

[BGuttman]

Conn started using the model numbers with letters in 1919. H was slide trombones, G was valve trombones, A was cornets, B was trumpets, D was French Horns. Naturally there were other letters for other instruments. It's all there in the Margaret Downey Banks' "History of the Conn Company".

[imsevimse]

I have quite a few Conn tenor trombones. The oldest is from 1902. My experience is to modern standards the tenors before the middle 30-ies are outdated for example the TIS 38h, 42h, 40h, 18h from those years It's the same with the Kings I own. They are really good from the mid 30ies but I have not found much use of the earlier. This does not mean they are bad trombones its just they do not fit the modern sound and do not blend very well with the modern horns in the section. All the old TIS horns especially have their own sound. It does not fit any of the context where I perform.

/Tom

[SwissTbone]

I have recently acquired two Elkhart Conn 70H's. One from 1937, one from 1948. Both are very good trombones. To me they don't sound that different to the modern bass trombones I play and I would have no problem using them in a modern setting.

[imsevimse]

I have recently acquired two Elkhart Conn 70H's. One from 1937, one from 1948. Both are very good trombones. To me they don't sound that different to the modern bass trombones I play and I would have no problem using them in a modern setting.

You are right about old basses with TIS. They seem to work in big band settings even today I have an old TIS Conn 70h from 1952. It plays very well. I used it last week in a big band and will do the gig that's coming up on that horn. It fits the section sound perfectly. My problem is the old small TIS tenors. They do not fit anywhere. Does someone have the same experience? If so, what's the theory?

/Tom

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

These two horns are just phenomenal to play. I try to use them whenever I have the chance. My Conn 3B mouthpiece seems to be a great fit with them.

[BGuttman]

I've played my 40H in Big Band. It is a little different sound; probably because of the very heavy slide due to the TIS. But I can get it to blend with a typical "geezer band" section.

The heavy slide makes playing very fast runs difficult; I would never suggest it for a "Boppy" piece.

[SwissTbone]

I have recently acquired two Elkhart Conn 70H's. One from 1937, one from 1948. Both are very good trombones. To me they don't sound that different to the modern bass trombones I play and I would have no problem using them in a modern setting.

You are right about old basses with TIS. They seem to work in big band settings even today I have an old TIS Conn 70h from 1952. It plays very well. I used it last week in a big band and will do the gig that's coming up on that horn. It fits the section sound perfectly. My problem is the old small TIS tenors. They do not fit anywhere. Does someone have the same experience? If so, what's the theory?

/Tom

Oh I don't think they just fit big band. To me they sound perfectly fine for orchestra, symphonic wind band etc. I didn't use them yet in a british brass band style setting as I fear the high volume needed will let them sound overly bright. But one of these days I'll try it in a rehearsal.

[Snohobob]

I have a Conn No.1, Gold plated with engraving all the way up the bell, and a bathing beauty on there. Pretty sure its 100 years old now. I'm contacting the local trombone professionals to see if the want to try it out. If they like the sound they might be interested in buying it. I was originally owned by a professional Jazz player from the 20's. It is an excellent solo instrument with a very unique mellow sound.

[sf105]

Conn was the dominant manufacturer of band instruments for decades. When things got tough, they were sold to Macmillan (so they could combine school band music and instruments) who made some spectacularly bad decisions and crashed the company (including its archive). For a long time, there weren't many real alternatives but that bred a cohort of independent makers some of whom turned into proper companies.
During the war, they switched to munitions. My theory is that they learned some manufacturing shortcuts which is why pre-war horns feel more like modern bespoke horns than their post-war horns.
For me, Conn horns have a certain colour to them that suits me. YMMV.

[cb56]

My 1929 78H Plays just like a modern horn imo.

[hyperbolica]

There's a limit to the practicality of trombones from the 1920s and earlier. Pitch went through a transition about then and Conn was delivering high and low pitch instruments. Another aspect of the practicality was that the average trombone bore was much smaller than it is today.

I had a 1920s 24h which was a beautiful instrument and played great. You cant play these iall musical situations. I currently have a '30s 32h, and it's tough to find a place to play it. Some old horn designs can make the jump and some can't.

One of the things about small horns, particularly the 24h, was that it played bigger than most people today think it should.

Models like the 70h, 78h and the 8h existed in the 20s and continue to be playable horns. It took until the 50s and 60s to put a trigger on the 8h (88h) , 78h (79h) and double triggers like the 62h or 73h.

[Posaunus]

... You can't play these in all musical situations. I currently have a '30s 32h, and it's tough to find a place to play it. Some old horn designs can make the jump and some can't.

This week I played my 1936 Conn 30H "Burkle" (0.494"/0.507" dual bore, 7" bell) with my "trad jazz" group. As far as I know. it fit in just fine with the ensemble. I continue to be impressed by its versatility, its sound (quite big if you want it to be), dynamic range, and pitch range - very low to very high (for me) - with a plain ole Conn 3 mouthpiece!

[hyperbolica]

This week I played my 1936 Conn 30H "Burkle" (0.494"/0.507" dual bore, 7" bell) with my "trad jazz" group. As far as I know. it fit in just fine with the ensemble. I continue to be impressed by its versatility, its sound (quite big if you want it to be), dynamic range, and pitch range - very low to very high (for me) - with a plain ole Conn 3 mouthpiece!

Yeah, that's a great application for that horn. I had one of those for a while, and I just couldn't make peace with it. It's too "in between" for the sound I try to get. Cool horns, though.

[Posaunus]

This week I played my 1936 Conn 30H "Burkle" (0.494"/0.507" dual bore, 7" bell) with my "trad jazz" group. As far as I know. it fit in just fine with the ensemble. I continue to be impressed by its versatility, its sound (quite big if you want it to be), dynamic range, and pitch range - very low to very high (for me) - with a plain ole Conn 3 mouthpiece!

Yeah, that's a great application for that horn. I had one of those for a while, and I just couldn't make peace with it. It's too "in between" for the sound I try to get. Cool horns, though.

I think Jake Burkle may have had me in mind (long before I was born) when he designed the 30H.
It creates just the sound that I imagine and aspire to.

I'm grateful to John Sandhagen for rescuing this crumpled relic from the discard pile.
It may look like the bell was severely wrinkled (it was), and the lacquer isn't perfect, but the slide is now smooth - and it plays like a dream!

[Tbarh]

Conn started using the model numbers with letters in 1919. H was slide trombones, G was valve trombones, A was cornets, B was trumpets, D was French Horns. Naturally there were other letters for other instruments. It's all there in the Margaret Downey Banks' "History of the Conn Company".

I thought that the currently model Numbers came between 20/21.
I have a 1920 Conn large bore with no 8H sign anywhere..The Horn has all the shapes and parts in common with a newer 8H except that the bell throat is much bigger(but 8 1/2" wide)and it us all red brass..is This a special made one maybe..It is also marked L-Symph ..

[timbone]

What are you trying to fit into? My TIS horns play great. I do have an 18H Tait model, and it plays larger than it is. I don't use it because I am not a .500 guy. Otherwise, 70, 82, 18, 62, 35 all play great.

[gadmoshe]

My 1919 Pan Am does not have the harmonics of a more contemporary horn. My 1959 Director with a copper bell can be used professionally. My ‘80’s 88H with the F valve is phenomenal and used in chamber and symphonic work.

[EriKon]

There's no such thing as historic performance in jazz or popular music of course but I think it makes a lot of sense to use such instruments from the early 20th century to play silent movie stuff like Chaplin. Although I don't know which exact horns would make sense for that. But I've played some of those Chaplin movies with a complete vintage Conn brass section. That was a huge difference in sound and huge fun.

[hyperbolica]

The old music was played in a very pecky style that no one would enjoy listening to today.

As for the old instruments, there's a general cutoff, when they stopped with the high/low pitch designations. Before that, horns aren't really viable to play in modern settings without modification. That was I think just before the 1920s.

I've owned a 24h from the 20s, and it was one hell of an instrument. Noah G claims the 8hs from that time were the best. I have a 32h from the 30s which is really good. Metal was thicker, bore was smaller, fewer valves all around.

[Mamaposaune]

I remember reading (maybe on the old forum) that Conn changed how it manufactured slides and/or the material used around 1927, which led to a significant improvement in the slide action. I think they went to drawn tubes and chrome plating, replacing the old technique of soldered-on stockings and nickle plating, basically the same as modern slides.

[EriKon]

The old music was played in a very pecky style that no one would enjoy listening to today.

Not sure what you refer to with "old music", but I would love to hear and absolutely enjoy this being played like it used to be:

[hyperbolica]

I was thinking of old music as pre-1920.

Well, there's Arthur Pryor's Blue Bells, pre-1900, of course

All the short stuff is pecky. The recording might have something to do with it, and the small bores in use at the time probably had something to do with it as well.


Even John Swallow's Blue Bells recorded in 1965

gets ptetty pecky.

[cb56]

"Blue balls of Scotland." Phil Wilson.

[bassbone]

Thought I'd share some photos of the 1925 gold plated 42H I just got back from my repair guy. I've played TIS Conns before (i.e. 70H) that had the full Opera Wheel mechanism. Always really liked the sound of TIS but disliked what it did to balance front to back. This more minimal approach to me is a lot more comfortable to play since it adds so much less weight.

This will be more of a special circumstance horn than a daily driver, but I'm loving it so far!

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[elmsandr]

Dear lord that is a beautiful horn.

[cgaiii]

Wow. A lot of cool Conn history. I recently acquired a 1939 Conn 32H. It shows some signs of wear, but it plays really nicely.

[bassbone]

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Sharing some photos of another in this category that will be hitting the classifieds here soon...

1930 24H

[Chazzer69]

Oooo...I wanna play this game too.

Top - 1926 82H
Middle - 1929 24H
Bottom - 1939 6H (7.5 in bell)

Also have a 1923 4H in silver plate. I'm just fascinated by old Conns.

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[Posaunus]

I enjoy playing both my vintage Conn "finds."

• 1930 Conn 40H 'Ballroom model' (0.500" bore, tuning-in-slide, 7" gold-wash bell)

• 1936 Conn 30H (0.494"/0.507" dual bore, 7" bell. Tapered bore through bell, tuning slide, bell taper, hand slides, and hand slide bow. Designed by Jake Burkle.)

They are both (but not too frequently) in my small-bore tenor rotation. Lotsa fun!

[vintage88h]

Early Conn trombones are fantastic.

Love my Conn L Symph. LP from 1913. Large bore 0.547 with 8 1'2 bell. All made of yellow brass.

[LeTromboniste]

My 1913 Conn "S" at low pitch (precursor to the 2H, same model played by Arthur Pryor). A bit small for modern purposes, and the slide can't handle the fastest playing, but I did use it for a big band project where the other tenor player liked to play a vintage 4H.

Silver plated with extensive gold trim (it's quite faded and not super visible, the inside of the bell, the engraving and all the ferules are gold plated). The finish of the silver on the bell is a bit satin-ish. Arguably the prettiest horn I own, but also the least used and one of the least valuable...

Disassembled.jpg

Engraving.jpg

[imsevimse]

My 1913 Conn "S" at low pitch (precursor to the 2H, same model played by Arthur Pryor). A bit small for modern purposes, and the slide can't handle the fastest playing, but I did use it for a big band project where the other tenor player liked to play a vintage 4H.

Silver plated with extensive gold trim (it's quite faded and not super visible, the inside of the bell, the engraving and all the ferules are gold plated). The finish of the silver on the bell is a bit satin-ish. Arguably the prettiest horn I own, but also the least used and one of the least valuable...

Disassembled.jpg

Engraving.jpg

I have one that looks like this one, Maximillian. It's made 1902. Not a high value I've only played it at home. It doesn't weigh much and can not take much power. The slide is tarnished so must be cleaned before each use. I think the bore size is 0.458. These old horns are mostly collector's items. The one I own didn't cost me much. I bought it just of curiosity and had no other expectations but the knowledge from experiencing the blow on this horn.

/Tom

[Buffalospiritgathering]

Back in the early years, Conn didn't make student level instruments. Most additions had to do with specific features for certain circumstances.
I am quite fond of them, but depending on the music styles you play, they may be more or less appropriate.

I have a 1928 Conn 76H model, a dual-bore .522/.545 straight horn with tuning in slide. The sound is fantastic. You barely have to work to get a good sound, but the slide is very heavy. I am master of alternate positions, so that doesn't bother me (as long as I don't have to play a low B natural in tune) or I don't injure myself working...

I also have a 1924 Conn 4H, which is a very common model. The slide is fantastic, and it suits most jazz things. If I need to mellow it out, I will use a silver bell that is made by Buescher for another .485 horn.

They each have their contexts.
Make sure the mouthpiece fits the horn, especially with Dual Bore instruments. I find the Remington Connstellation to work with every Conn I have played so far. Your mileage may vary.

[finnian4258]

I recently purchased a 1932 44H Vocabell with a Conn 21 Goldtone mouthpiece. The horn itself is surprisingly heavy considering it is only a 0.485 bore and 7 (1/2?) inch bell. The sound is dense for a small bore but can absolutely sing up high with almost no breaking of tone. The Goldtone doesn’t really work with it, as the huge rim just makes it feel stuffy no matter how much I warm up on it. A 12C seems to be a very nice basic choice for the horn. The Goldtone does, however, work wonderfully on my Olds V-20 Superstar .495-.510. So open and strong from D below the staff all the way above Bb.

[PanicSlim]

I just took delivery of a mint 24H, 1929 or 30. It plays great, a sweet, mellow, bark. I’d say it “slots” particularly well, high register is easily available and in tune. I was running through my lame Bill Rank and Teagarden period things and it seems to be a better fit than either the old 2B (that I love) and the Williams 6 (same) I usually use. I’m looking forward to playing in the 20-30s band I play in. The photos in this ebay listing are better than I could manage. I hope the link works, at least for awhile. Very little engraving, looks to be rose brass throughout? Lovely sound. I love this weird largish cup (26mm i.d.) “M.B. Sery Model Clarke” mouthpiece that came with it. Very small shank, but fits. I can’t get with the “Conn trombone” small mpc. I usually play something like a 6.5AL (Greg Black) with the 2B, and Wms 6. You all would tell me its too big, but works for me, but I must say it doesn’t do as well in this smaller Conn. https://ebay.us/m/e0knyC

[PanicSlim]

I just took delivery of a mint 24H, 1929 or 30. It plays great, a sweet, mellow, bark. I’d say it “slots” particularly well, high register is easily available and in tune. I was running through my lame Bill Rank and Teagarden period things and it seems to be a better fit than either the old 2B (that I love) and the Williams 6 (same) I usually use. I’m looking forward to playing in the 20-30s band I play in. The photos in this ebay listing are better than I could manage. I hope the link works, at least for awhile. Very little engraving, Stockings, handgrip look new, no wear at all. Heavy but useful slide, but I’m used to heavy. Looks to be rose brass throughout? Maybe that the sound I’m digging. I love this weird largish cup (26mm i.d.) “M.B. Sery Model Clarke” mouthpiece that came with it. Very small shank, but fits. I can’t get with the “Conn trombone” small mpc. I usually play something like a 6.5AL (Greg Black) with the 2B, and Wms 6. You all would tell me its too big, but works for me, but I must say it doesn’t do as well in this smaller Conn. You’ve got to look at these hotel stickers all over the case. Hours of entertainment. https://ebay.us/m/e0knyC

[Tbarh]

Early Conn trombones are fantastic.

Love my Conn L Symph. LP from 1913. Large bore 0.547 with 8 1'2 bell. All made of yellow brass.

Just curious: are the bell taper larger than a 88H ?

I have one like this from 1920 and the bell taper is much larger (still 8 1/2" )

Trond

[vintage88h]

Early Conn trombones are fantastic.

Love my Conn L Symph. LP from 1913. Large bore 0.547 with 8 1'2 bell. All made of yellow brass.

Just curious: are the bell taper larger than a 88H ?

I have one like this from 1920 and the bell taper is much larger (still 8 1/2" )

Trond

I would say the bell taper is nearly the same than the 88H. Maybe a bit larger

[blast]

I was using my 1927 14H for some recording with the orchestra yesterday. Still works.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

I was using my 1927 14H for some recording with the orchestra yesterday. Still works.

Speaking of which, Benn is in the process of finishing mine up. Does yours also have the dual bore slide?

[blast]

I was using my 1927 14H for some recording with the orchestra yesterday. Still works.

Speaking of which, Benn is in the process of finishing mine up. Does yours also have the dual bore slide?

Nope...547 single bore TIS 8 1/2" bell, all red brass. Like an 88H on steroids.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Speaking of which, Benn is in the process of finishing mine up. Does yours also have the dual bore slide?

Nope...547 single bore TIS 8 1/2" bell, all red brass. Like an 88H on steroids.

Nice! He mentioned that mine was the .522/.547 slide variant with an 8.5” bell. Mine is silver plated with gold wash bell. Can’t wait to get it back!