New York

Spin your yarns here.
User avatar
harrisonreed
Posts: 4878
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
Location: Fort Riley, Kansas
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by harrisonreed »

Kbiggs wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:26 am
harrisonreed wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 4:27 pm Have you been on tour with a band or large ensemble before?
Yep. And I’m one of those guys that didn’t hit on anyone else, and if anyone else hit on me, I ignored it. But that’s me. My operating system is a little different.
Right, not talking about that -- that's how it is for most people on tour. Most people act relatively tame. That isn't unique.

I'm talking about how chatty people get on tour.

But to your point, there is simply no way for any of us to really know what happened or what people actually knew. I'd be surprised if the rumors weren't making the rounds, and I'll leave my point at that.
Last edited by harrisonreed on Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
tbdana
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:47 pm

Re: New York

Post by tbdana »

I've been on tour a LOT (though back in the stone age), and there are no secrets on the road.
User avatar
officermayo
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:07 pm
Location: Gadsden, AL

Re: New York

Post by officermayo »

One a tour bus, someone in the back seat can fart, and by the time it wafts to the front everyone knows what the perpetrator had for lunch.

The adage "What happens on the road STAYS on the road" is a myth.
Last edited by officermayo on Thu Apr 18, 2024 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When in doubt, blow out" - MSgt M.A. Mayo, Marine Band

The contest entry form said "Void where prohibited", so I peed on the Captain's desk.
User avatar
JohnL
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 am
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by JohnL »

Kbiggs wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:26 amSide note: It’s deplorable how humanity has, throughout history, accepted the reprehensible and criminal behavior of some people because they’re artists, or politicians, or teachers, or leaders.
It's not that they're artists, or politicians, or teachers, or leaders (or athletes, for that matter). It's that they are perceived as being exceptionally talented - the very best of the very best. Rather than settle for someone infinitesimally less talented, institutions will not only tolerate abhorrent behavior, but will actively seek to cover it up.
Mikebmiller
Posts: 878
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:13 am
Location: Spartanburg, SC

Re: New York

Post by Mikebmiller »

In a similar vein, did anybody else see the news on Demondrae Thurmon yesterday?
User avatar
King2bPlus
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Howell, NJ

Re: New York

Post by King2bPlus »

See the story of Claire Pollack and Demondrae Thurman.
Ken Jackson
King 2b+, King 3b
Elliott LT 104N, C, C2
Elliott LT 104N, C+, D2
User avatar
LeTromboniste
Posts: 1091
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:22 am
Location: Sion, CH

Re: New York

Post by LeTromboniste »

Another awful, awful story (and once again just the tip of the iceberg).

The two stories intersected again as Joe Alessi commented "Don't understand how ANYONE would violate the sacred bond between student and teacher" and Claire Pollock called him out on his responsibility, given his unique position of power in the brass world, to kill that culture and create change with action rather than words, instead of continuing to collaborate with known abusers. Claire Pollock is a fearless badass.

I'm curious to know where Alessi's "sacred bond" was when he let his own student get denied tenure as his associate merely for supporting a colleague victim of sexual assault. And I guess, given how he publicly endorsed him as late as last summer, that the "sacred bond" between him and his former student Massimo La Rosa trumped the same "sacred bond" between La Rosa and the students he assaulted or attempted to assault?
Maximilien Brisson
www.maximilienbrisson.com
Lecturer for baroque trombone,
Hfk Bremen/University of the Arts Bremen
User avatar
elmsandr
Posts: 1028
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:43 pm
Location: S.E. Michigan
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by elmsandr »

King2bPlus wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2024 12:09 pm See the story of Claire Pollack and Demondrae Thurman.
This hurts. I’ve known Demondrae for years… until the last 48hours or so I was looking forward to seeing my friend in a couple of days now. He is obviously no longer welcome in the venue, but it now raises the question for me…. Was any of this happening while I was around? I did not see it, but to point out the obvious, I am not a young woman. Her descriptions of his charisma and fun in public match what I would see, but that next step into the private location was never shown to me… but I’m not the target, am I?

Truly painful to think this could be happening AND be done by somebody I would have thought was out there trying to make the world better. I hope he gets everything he deserves and more for this breach.

Really at a loss here, but I hope in my circles at least we have a much more open and raw conversation about how this happens and how it can be prevented.
Andy
Wilco
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:54 am

Re: New York

Post by Wilco »

LeTromboniste wrote: Wed May 01, 2024 6:03 am Another awful, awful story (and once again just the tip of the iceberg).

The two stories intersected again as Joe Alessi commented "Don't understand how ANYONE would violate the sacred bond between student and teacher" and Claire Pollock called him out on his responsibility, given his unique position of power in the brass world, to kill that culture and create change with action rather than words, instead of continuing to collaborate with known abusers. Claire Pollock is a fearless badass.

I'm curious to know where Alessi's "sacred bond" was when he let his own student get denied tenure as his associate merely for supporting a colleague victim of sexual assault. And I guess, given how he publicly endorsed him as late as last summer, that the "sacred bond" between him and his former student Massimo La Rosa trumped the same "sacred bond" between La Rosa and the students he assaulted or attempted to assault?
This is disappointing…. https://www.facebook.com/share/p/iFUzA74epHgb4cdy/?
User avatar
JohnL
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 am
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by JohnL »

elmsandr wrote: Wed May 01, 2024 7:57 am This hurts. I’ve known Demondrae for years… until the last 48hours or so I was looking forward to seeing my friend in a couple of days now. He is obviously no longer welcome in the venue, but it now raises the question for me…. Was any of this happening while I was around? I did not see it, but to point out the obvious, I am not a young woman. Her descriptions of his charisma and fun in public match what I would see, but that next step into the private location was never shown to me… but I’m not the target, am I?
Predators are generally really good at "reading the room". They'll start small and gradually escalate until they see people around them getting uncomfortable, then back down a notch or two. Once they've learned where the line is, they'll start working on moving the line. It's a slow process, but predators are very patient. Eventually, an action that was formerly seen as crossing the line begins to be normalized. This is one of the concepts that was part of my annual "Mandated Reporter" training when I was working at a public school.
User avatar
DougHulme
Posts: 497
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:54 am
Location: Portsmouth UK
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by DougHulme »

John... In the UK we call it "Grooming" you are right and the younger the person is the easier it is... Doug
User avatar
JohnL
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 am
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by JohnL »

DougHulme wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 1:21 am John... In the UK we call it "Grooming" you are right and the younger the person is the easier it is... Doug
I'm not talking about grooming victims (though that's certainly a big part of the equation); I'm talking about how they use similar techniques on the people around them to desensitize them to behavior that would otherwise raise warning flags.

You see a total stranger who is "handsy" and you immediately think it's a little off, but if it's someone you know well (or THINK you know well) who behaves like that with pretty much everyone, you're apt to dismiss it as "just them being them".
Kbiggs
Posts: 1217
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:46 am
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: New York

Post by Kbiggs »

harrisonreed wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:08 am
Kbiggs wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:26 am

Yep. And I’m one of those guys that didn’t hit on anyone else, and if anyone else hit on me, I ignored it. But that’s me. My operating system is a little different.
Right, not talking about that -- that's how it is for most people on tour. Most people act relatively tame. That isn't unique.

I'm talking about how chatty people get on tour.

But to your point, there is simply no way for any of us to really know what happened or what people actually knew. I'd be surprised if the rumors weren't making the rounds, and I'll leave my point at that.
Ah, I get it. I’m one of the people who would hear the rumour last, after everyone else (except the Director or the prof on college tours).
Kenneth Biggs
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
User avatar
elmsandr
Posts: 1028
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:43 pm
Location: S.E. Michigan
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by elmsandr »

JohnL wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 8:08 am
DougHulme wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 1:21 am John... In the UK we call it "Grooming" you are right and the younger the person is the easier it is... Doug
I'm not talking about grooming victims (though that's certainly a big part of the equation); I'm talking about how they use similar techniques on the people around them to desensitize them to behavior that would otherwise raise warning flags.

You see a total stranger who is "handsy" and you immediately think it's a little off, but if it's someone you know well (or THINK you know well) who behaves like that with pretty much everyone, you're apt to dismiss it as "just them being them".
Right. For example, there’s another picture of Demondrae with another woman on the various FB posts. There’s a real good chance that I’m within 25’ of that photo, depending on when it was taken. I know there’s probably a photo of him with his arm around me giving me a kiss on the cheek as well. It was not uncommon. Never saw anything like the twerking mentioned, but plenty of dancing so I don’t doubt it happened later. For myself and probably almost all the others that experienced it… we weren’t the targets, were we? That was it, the extent. We had fun with a charismatic person and then we both left. It had never occurred to me that this ended any other way for others there.

Really struggling with the amount of discussion around “everybody knew” …. The F$&#< ? I didn’t. Not even a hint.

Andy
Kbiggs
Posts: 1217
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:46 am
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: New York

Post by Kbiggs »

Wilco wrote: Wed May 01, 2024 10:31 am
This is disappointing…. https://www.facebook.com/share/p/iFUzA74epHgb4cdy/?
Re: my earlier statement about complicity:

The link Wilco shared shows that Alessi was aware (could not have been unaware?) of some of these goings on. He was certainly aware that his former pupil La Rosa was accused of various assaults and affairs, continued to work with him, and make concert appearances with him. And it thus seems much more likely he was aware of Muckey’s repugnant behavior.

A related note:

Disclaimer: I’m not excusing the beavhior of any of perps mentioned. I’m certainly not excusing any of the harrassment that Daemondrae Thurman inflicted on Deni Travis (read the link), or Muckey, or Wang, or any of the “bros” who have assaulated, harrassed, badgered, or “teased” anyone who is not a “bro.”

Having previously worked as a drug and alcohol counselor (in private settings and in community health settings), I’ve heard and seen a lot of shocking, disgusting, and horrible things. One normal human reaction to watching someone harass, badger, pester, even assault someone else is disbelief: “I can’t believe this is happening right in front of my eyes.” It’s the kind of shock where your mind is trying to process that something like this can actually happen, that one human being can actually do something like that to another human being. It’s not that a person can’t believe it. It’s that it’s almost unthinkable that one person would deliberately harm another person. There are many other cognitive and emotional reactions, of course, but shock is one that can make us almost paralyzed with disbelief in these kinds of situations.

That shock, however, is only an explanation for the immediate reaction, as if to say, “I didn’t do anything at first because I couldn’t believe what was happening.” After that initial moment of shock, however, anyone—everyone—who sees it is morally obliged to do something, to intervene, to make it stop.

I get it: it takes courage to intervene in this kind of situation. Also, who wants to get between the bully who is harassing or assaulting someone, and risk personal bodily harm? But if not you, then who?

The type of assault and predatory behavior from some of these “Brass Bros” isn’t always out in public, like Thurman’s twerking. When it is, it only takes one person to call it out to allow others to get over their own shock. When it’s not, we are again morally obliged to help those who need help.

If you see something, say something or do something. Nothing changes if nothing changes.
Kenneth Biggs
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
User avatar
JohnL
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 am
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by JohnL »

And so it begins. Both Liang Wang and Matthew Muckey are have initiated legal action against the NY Phil

https://slippedisc.com/2024/05/just-in- ... lharmonic/
https://slippedisc.com/2024/05/now-matt ... t-ny-phil/

I'll go out on a limb and say that, when the dust finally settles (and it's going to be a while), there will be no "winners".
Last edited by JohnL on Thu May 02, 2024 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Burgerbob
Posts: 4830
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
Location: LA
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by Burgerbob »

Ugh.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
User avatar
JohnL
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 am
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by JohnL »

Burgerbob wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 7:23 pmUgh.
Yup. But entirely expected.

I don't see how the Phil can bring them back at this point, so the final outcome is probably going to be some sort of payout.

A question for you pros out there, particularly anyone who plays with a big orchestra: Are musicians required to go through sexual harassment training? If so, would such training have been a requirement back in 2010?
GabrielRice
Posts: 1043
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:20 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by GabrielRice »

JohnL wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 8:13 pm A question for you pros out there, particularly anyone who plays with a big orchestra: Are musicians required to go through sexual harassment training? If so, would such training have been a requirement back in 2010?
I think some of that might be starting at the big orchestras, but I've never had to do any kind of sexual harassment training for orchestras where I am a member. I HAVE had to do it, however, for teaching jobs, and most orchestra players do at least some teaching.
User avatar
JohnL
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:01 am
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by JohnL »

GabrielRice wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 9:04 pmI HAVE had to do it, however, for teaching jobs, and most orchestra players do at least some teaching.
I should have thought of that; I know Liang Wang was on the faculty at The Manhattan School
MStarke
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:33 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by MStarke »

To me this looks like a long-required clean-up. Probably most (male) trombonists have been thinking if they have any turf in this. I for myself have definitely had these thoughts and while I luckily have never been that near to such a situation, I have certainly not always been a perfect rolemodel. For me the benefit is that I am questionning myself and try to improve. E.g. I REALLY try to get more females involved in ensemble projects that I do.
Markus Starke
https://www.mst-studio-mouthpieces.com/

Alto: Conn 35h, Kanstul, Weril
Tenor: 2x Conn 6h, Blessing medium, Elkhart 88H, 88HT, Greenhoe 88HT, Heckel, Piering replica
Bass: Conn 112h/62h, Greenhoe TIS, Conn 60h/"62h"
User avatar
elmsandr
Posts: 1028
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:43 pm
Location: S.E. Michigan
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by elmsandr »

JohnL wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 7:15 pm And so it begins. Both Liang Wang and Matthew Muckey are have initiated legal action against the NY Phil

https://slippedisc.com/2024/05/just-in- ... lharmonic/
https://slippedisc.com/2024/05/now-matt ... t-ny-phil/

I'll go out on a limb and say that, when the dust finally settles (and it's going to be a while), there will be no "winners".
Sadly, the only way this doesn’t end with the abusers getting a large payout is for somebody else to come forward. Then they could fire them for cause again and go through arbitration again with the new evidentiary standard and hopefully get a reasonable result.

That said, I’d bet on a payout here. Any halfway competent lawyer should be able to get that here.

Ugh.
Andy
User avatar
officermayo
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:07 pm
Location: Gadsden, AL

Re: New York

Post by officermayo »

Litigation, schmitigation.

In addition to having two daughters (one is a business woman - the other has a degree in performance and works professionally) and a granddaughter, I've worked with several female trombonists over the last 50+ years. Being an old school Jarhead, I'm pretty sure if anyone sexually harrased or assaulted one of my girls, the only litigation would be me being charged with aggregated assault at the least. Ignoring this wretched behavior is tantamount to actually participating in it. Time has long past for men to take a stand and be prepared for the consequences.

Folks have been turning a blind eye to the breakdown of sociital common decency for too long and look where it's gotten us.
"When in doubt, blow out" - MSgt M.A. Mayo, Marine Band

The contest entry form said "Void where prohibited", so I peed on the Captain's desk.
GabrielRice
Posts: 1043
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:20 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by GabrielRice »

officermayo wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 6:25 am Folks have been turning a blind eye to the breakdown of sociital common decency for too long and look where it's gotten us.
This is not an issue of "things were better in the old days." They were not.

I don't have time to go into more detail. Ask a woman, any woman.
JoeStanko
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:04 am

Re: New York

Post by JoeStanko »

One of my sisters is a well known criminologist in the UK. This article is about one of her studies:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/m ... tsy-stanko
OneTon
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:44 am

Re: New York

Post by OneTon »

GabrielRice wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 7:52 am
officermayo wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 6:25 am Folks have been turning a blind eye to the breakdown of sociital common decency for too long and look where it's gotten us.
This is not an issue of "things were better in the old days." They were not.

I don't have time to go into more detail. Ask a woman, any woman.
Take a look at the legend of Phryne, the woman who won court cases by baring her breasts. I am making no comparison of the women involved in the NY Philharmonic scandal. Phryne is a prime example of how sex and money have been driving the judicial system at least since 371 BCE. Human nature has not changed. Justice hasn’t been blind for a long time.
Last edited by OneTon on Fri May 03, 2024 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Richard Smith
Wichita, Kansas
User avatar
tbdana
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:47 pm

Re: New York

Post by tbdana »

OneTon wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 8:23 am
Take a look at the legend of Phyrne, the woman who won court cases by baring her breasts. I am making no comparison of the women involved in the NY Philharmonic scandal. Phyrne is a prime example of how sex and money have been driving the judicial system at least since 371 BCE. Human nature has not changed. Justice hasn’t been blind for a long time.
This may be the most bizarre post I've ever seen in this forum.
GabrielRice
Posts: 1043
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:20 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by GabrielRice »

tbdana wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 8:43 am
OneTon wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 8:23 am
Take a look at the legend of Phyrne, the woman who won court cases by baring her breasts. I am making no comparison of the women involved in the NY Philharmonic scandal. Phyrne is a prime example of how sex and money have been driving the judicial system at least since 371 BCE. Human nature has not changed. Justice hasn’t been blind for a long time.
This may be the most bizarre post I've ever seen in this forum.
Yeah...what in the world are you talking about???
OneTon
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:44 am

Re: New York

Post by OneTon »

Boeing had a signed contract to pay the medical insurance btween ange 59 and 65 for engineers over a specified age if the engineer retired before 65. After Boeing divested what became Spirit, Boeing renigged. The engineers’ union got five affected engineers to file a class action lawsuit. Boeing drug out the litigation 13 years. The presiding judge admonished Boeing’s attorneys after 4 or 5 years when the number of pages of briefs exceeded 4000. When Boeing decided they had kicked the crap out of the union long enough, Boeing settled for about $0.25 on the dollar. It wasn’t about the money.

Many of the posts on this thread are naive. Powerhouses like Boeing drag out litigation. The NY Phil might settle out. If they do it will likely be a travesty. The message that an organization is sending to the 802 is that the 802 can’t tell them what to do.

Phryne may have been defined by libertine behavior. She was also the privileged daughter of the powerful and presumably wealthy Greek elite. Violence is not the answer It makes things worse. If anything, it fuels the problem. The best hope for long term change is liberal arts education that promotes ethical behavior, as in studying and understanding Phryne.
Last edited by OneTon on Fri May 03, 2024 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Richard Smith
Wichita, Kansas
User avatar
officermayo
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:07 pm
Location: Gadsden, AL

Re: New York

Post by officermayo »

GabrielRice wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 7:52 am
officermayo wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 6:25 am Folks have been turning a blind eye to the breakdown of sociital common decency for too long and look where it's gotten us.
This is not an issue of "things were better in the old days." They were not.

I don't have time to go into more detail. Ask a woman, any woman.
I didn't say that so please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

But, since you brought it up, only a fool would deny things have gotten worse. These perverts have become brazen and fear not.
"When in doubt, blow out" - MSgt M.A. Mayo, Marine Band

The contest entry form said "Void where prohibited", so I peed on the Captain's desk.
OneTon
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:44 am

Re: New York

Post by OneTon »

I am such a fool. In spite of my cynicism, the fact of women finding more employment opportunities and having a day in court, however jaundiced by harsh reality, shows incremental progress. We should not give up hope.
Richard Smith
Wichita, Kansas
User avatar
DougHulme
Posts: 497
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:54 am
Location: Portsmouth UK
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by DougHulme »

Joe Stanko wrote
One of my sisters is a well known criminologist in the UK. This article is about one of her studies
Joe I never made the 'Stanko' connection, I have long admired her work and have listened to what she says for many years.

The article is chilling in the light of the present discussion and her historical personal experience... Doug
JoeStanko
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:04 am

Re: New York

Post by JoeStanko »

DougHulme wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 10:33 am Joe Stanko wrote
One of my sisters is a well known criminologist in the UK. This article is about one of her studies
Joe I never made the 'Stanko' connection, I have long admired her work and have listened to what she says for many years.

The article is chilling in the light of the present discussion and her historical personal experience... Doug
Doug, Betsy's earned some serious creds: https://empowerinnocent.wixsite.com/web ... gical-bias

..yet, we're not above doing some Curly woob woob woob when we get together..after all, she has a brother who plays trombone..
User avatar
Burgerbob
Posts: 4830
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
Location: LA
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by Burgerbob »

officermayo wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 9:36 am
I didn't say that so please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

But, since you brought it up, only a fool would deny things have gotten worse. These perverts have become brazen and fear not.

Again, wrong. This has been happening forever. It's only now that women have barely been able to speak up about it and now we KNOW about it.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
User avatar
Burgerbob
Posts: 4830
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
Location: LA
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by Burgerbob »

OneTon wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 9:44 am I am such a fool. In spite of my cynicism, the fact of women finding more employment opportunities and having a day in court, however jaundiced by harsh reality, shows incremental progress. We should not give up hope.
I'm super, duper unsure of the point you're trying to make here.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
User avatar
officermayo
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:07 pm
Location: Gadsden, AL

Re: New York

Post by officermayo »

Burgerbob wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 11:10 am
officermayo wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 9:36 am
I didn't say that so please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

But, since you brought it up, only a fool would deny things have gotten worse. These perverts have become brazen and fear not.

Again, wrong. This has been happening forever. It's only now that women have barely been able to speak up about it and now we KNOW about it.
Again, I never said this was some new occurance, but that it's getting worse. So no - I'm not wrong.
"When in doubt, blow out" - MSgt M.A. Mayo, Marine Band

The contest entry form said "Void where prohibited", so I peed on the Captain's desk.
User avatar
Burgerbob
Posts: 4830
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
Location: LA
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by Burgerbob »

officermayo wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 11:55 am

Again, I never said this was some new occurance, but that it's getting worse. So no - I'm not wrong.
It's getting worse only because we're aware of it. It's been worse in the past.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
sungfw
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:15 am

Re: New York

Post by sungfw »

Burgerbob wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 11:10 am
officermayo wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 9:36 am
I didn't say that so please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

But, since you brought it up, only a fool would deny things have gotten worse. These perverts have become brazen and fear not.
Again, wrong. This has been happening forever. It's only now that women have barely been able to speak up about it and now we ARE NEITHER WILLING NOR ABLE (at least some of us) TO IGNORE IT ANY LONGER.
FTFY.

I agree that things haven't (necessarily) gotten worse, but even in the 1980s, when I was an undergrad (non-music) at a small college (mayyyyy-be 1200 FTE students), it was an open secret that the music faculty were warning female music majors on the QT against accepting invitations to lessons or private coaching from certain male conductors and players of high profile orchestras and soloists when they visited campus for recitals, masterclasses, etc. due to their reputation for engaging in certain "extra curricular activities": activities that, if true, would have gotten a college employee fired and banned from setting foot on campus … only the college admin was willing to turn a blind eye and deaf ear because of the "status" conferred by association with those individuals.
Lhbone
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:56 am
Location: Maryland

Re: New York

Post by Lhbone »

Burgerbob wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 11:56 am
officermayo wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 11:55 am

Again, I never said this was some new occurance, but that it's getting worse. So no - I'm not wrong.
It's getting worse only because we're aware of it. It's been worse in the past.
This ^. Thank you, Aidan. Thinking things are worse now than they used to be is a sign of “ignorance is bliss”, a privilege only a male can have in this (and most other) field(s).
OneTon
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:44 am

Re: New York

Post by OneTon »

Burgerbob wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 11:11 am
OneTon wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 9:44 am I am such a fool. In spite of my cynicism, the fact of women finding more employment opportunities and having a day in court, however jaundiced by harsh reality, shows incremental progress. We should not give up hope.
I'm super, duper unsure of the point you're trying to make here.
I am a fool because some things are getting better for female players: More women are playing brass intruments. The courts are being abused by big money. A long time ago women were treated like chattel. Now women have a right to vote and access to regress in a court of law, even if big money has a thumb on Lady Justice’ scale.
Richard Smith
Wichita, Kansas
sungfw
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:15 am

Re: New York

Post by sungfw »

Burgerbob wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 11:56 am
officermayo wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 11:55 am

Again, I never said this was some new occurance, but that it's getting worse. So no - I'm not wrong.
It's getting worse only because we're aware of it. It's been worse in the past.
Indeed. As former Associate Justice of the Supreme Court Louis Brandies, reflecting on "the wickedness of people shielding wrongdoers & passing them off (or at least allowing them to pass themselves off) as honest men," observed,
If the broad light of day could be let in upon men’s actions, it would purify them as the sun disinfects." [Letters of Louis D. Brandeis, Feb. 26, 1891. (Albany: State University of New York Press, 1971), p. 100.]
User avatar
harrisonreed
Posts: 4878
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
Location: Fort Riley, Kansas
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by harrisonreed »

This thread took a confusing turn - "*now* women have the right to vote". Women have had the vote (at least some of them) for 100 years. The recent difference I think is more about the access to far reaching communication, and people actually listening to women.

And they're only listening to women of a certain pedigree. If this happened at a local convenience store, it wouldn't be in a magazine and nobody would care. It's gross. We have so far to go.
Aspenforest
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:53 pm
Location: Eau Claire, WI

Re: New York

Post by Aspenforest »

OneTon wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 8:23 am
33d.gif
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Victoria
She/They
sungfw
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:15 am

Re: New York

Post by sungfw »

harrisonreed wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 1:32 pm This thread took a confusing turn - "*now* women have the right to vote". Women have had the vote (at least some of them) for 100 years. The recent difference I think is more about the access to far reaching communication, and people actually listening to women.

And they're only listening to women of a certain pedigree. If this happened at a local convenience store, it wouldn't be in a magazine and nobody would care. It's gross. We have so far to go.
I think Richard's point is that roughly 100 years ago, women did not have the right to vote, so securing that right is a step forward. A small step, yes; but a step nonetheless. (Let's not forget that the same signatories of the Declaration of Independence who claimed that they held "these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" but explicitly denied both women and Blacks those rights, or that Blacks—and other minorities—were only enfranchised in 1965.)

Do we still have far to go? Unquestionably. And the sooner we get there, the better. But don't pretend that because (some) women secured the franchise a century ago it's somehow irrelevant to the current discussion.
User avatar
Burgerbob
Posts: 4830
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:10 pm
Location: LA
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by Burgerbob »

OneTon wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 1:10 pm
Burgerbob wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 11:11 am

I'm super, duper unsure of the point you're trying to make here.
I am a fool because some things are getting better for female players: More women are playing brass intruments. The courts are being abused by big money. A long time ago women were treated like chattel. Now women have a right to vote and access to regress in a court of law, even if big money has a thumb on Lady Justice’ scale.
Again, I have to ask... What is your point?
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
User avatar
harrisonreed
Posts: 4878
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
Location: Fort Riley, Kansas
Contact:

Re: New York

Post by harrisonreed »

sungfw wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 3:09 pm But don't pretend that because (some) women secured the franchise a century ago it's somehow irrelevant to the current discussion.
It's hard to see how it is relevant. Certainly none of the women I know were even born when the general right to vote was an issue. Neither were their parents. It *was* great progress. But so what? Are we supposed to be satisfied with progress made in the now nearly ancient past? We have fish that are just as big that we need to fry now.

What exactly is the point that makes the right to vote being secured 100 years ago remotely relevant here?
WGWTR180
Posts: 1328
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:32 pm

Re: New York

Post by WGWTR180 »

GabrielRice wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 9:04 pm
JohnL wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 8:13 pm A question for you pros out there, particularly anyone who plays with a big orchestra: Are musicians required to go through sexual harassment training? If so, would such training have been a requirement back in 2010?
I think some of that might be starting at the big orchestras, but I've never had to do any kind of sexual harassment training for orchestras where I am a member. I HAVE had to do it, however, for teaching jobs, and most orchestra players do at least some teaching.
We had to do it for the Broadway Organizations we work for plus DEI. training as well.
sungfw
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:15 am

Re: New York

Post by sungfw »

harrisonreed wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 4:03 pm
sungfw wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 3:09 pm But don't pretend that because (some) women secured the franchise a century ago it's somehow irrelevant to the current discussion.
It's hard to see how it is relevant. Certainly none of the women I know were even born when the general right to vote was an issue. Neither were their parents. It *was* great progress. But so what? Are we supposed to be satisfied with progress made in the now nearly ancient past? We have fish that are just as big that we need to fry now.

What exactly is the point that makes the right to vote being secured 100 years ago remotely relevant here?
If you can't see the relevance of the analogy, I'm not going to waste time and energy spelling it out for you.

"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time, and it annoys the pig." – Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love
Aspenforest
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:53 pm
Location: Eau Claire, WI

Re: New York

Post by Aspenforest »

sungfw wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 5:57 pm
2nmuyz.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Victoria
She/They
OneTon
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:44 am

Re: New York

Post by OneTon »

I respect Officer Mayo’s opinions even if I don’t endorse his
solution. I have experienced frustration with bad behavior. I can empathize. I would recommend that this thread would be an excellent candidate for closure by an administrator.
Richard Smith
Wichita, Kansas
Post Reply

Return to “Tangents”