New York

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Bonearzt
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New York

Post by Bonearzt »

Hi All, a rather disturbing article came up in my faceplant feed regarding the NY Phil.

And I'm sure most of you have seen or heard about it.......


Thoughts?



Thanks!
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JohnL
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Re: New York

Post by JohnL »

I wish I could say that it's shocking. Sadly, I cannot. This sort of thing happens all too often to be shocking.
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Re: New York

Post by MStarke »

I guess many people have learned to keep their mouth shut a bit too much. However I guess to some extent everyone is guilty of seeing things and not doing anything about it.
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Re: New York

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LeTromboniste
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Re: New York

Post by LeTromboniste »

Yeah. Disgusting, and at the same time hardly surprising, sadly.

I'll add that some pretty big brass and trombone "heroes" would likely have been involved in the tenure aspects of this (and if not, at least complicit in their silence).
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tbdana
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Re: New York

Post by tbdana »

I find myself wondering where Joe Alessi was on all this from 2010 to 2018. I'll guess he may have been on the tenure committee for Amanda Stewart. The vote was 8 to 1 against her. I'm wondering who the 1 was, and wondering if Alessi had a vote.
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Re: New York

Post by MTbassbone »

tbdana wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 4:07 pm I find myself wondering where Joe Alessi was on all this from 2010 to 2018.
I had the same thought.
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Re: New York

Post by officermayo »

Those in charge should be ashamed.
In the world of music, I can't for the life of me understand why women are given such a hard time in orchestras. Of all the jobs, being a musician is definitely a case where one's gender has zero effect on their ability to do the job as well as anyone else of equal talent. I guess the Me Too movement doesn't apply to symphonies.
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Re: New York

Post by BGuttman »

I think the problem is related to testosterone poisoning and musicians are no more immune to it than anybody else.

It's really nasty when it shows up.
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Doug Elliott
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Re: New York

Post by Doug Elliott »

A different article from 2022 notes that "27 of its 30 violinists are now women" and at the time women outnumbered men in the whole orchestra.

Makes you wonder lots of things. If any of them had to go through the same hazing. And why Amanda was apparently the only one to stick up for her. Why it wasn't taken seriously by the orchestra, the legal system, or the union which should have protected her but instead protected the perps. And yes, how the tenure vote went.
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Re: New York

Post by Burgerbob »

The union and tenure things really grind my gears. I'd not be a happy dues-paying 802 member at the moment.
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Re: New York

Post by Doug Elliott »

Well I am a member of 802, not that I ever work there...
It will be interesting to see if and how they react to the article now that it's out there.
And with some of the Broadway pits being largely women now.
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heldenbone
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Re: New York

Post by heldenbone »

Years ago, after ASOL (American Symphony Orchestra League) reorganized and renamed itself to LoAO (League of American Orchestras), the sort of assistance it began giving changed radically. Musicians were to be treated as ignorant, squabbling children, not co-workers worthy of respect in a dignified workplace. Contract negotiations became the hostile affairs you read about here. Management is indispensable, and musicians are a dime a dozen. Example - During their last *really* ugly contract talks, Louisville Orchestra management staged a lockout and threatened to hire all new replacement musicians from Craigs List. That sort of crap hasn't worked its way out of the system. When Christian Badea came to Columbus OH, many of the orchestra's principals learned their chairs were being auditioned by reading it in International Musician. Orchestra Management does not have the musicians' best interests at heart. They wish to put an adequate product on stage for the least money possible, and frequently, as in the Badea case, musicians' unions are more interested in green trust fund sheets than employment security and safety. How many interminable rounds of "no decision" auditions do you think are really justified, while an orchestra waits for a specific player to decide to audition?
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Re: New York

Post by Kbiggs »

Kudos and compassion to Kizer and Stewart. I hope Muckey, Wang, and Bloch are held accountable.
Last edited by Kbiggs on Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New York

Post by tbdana »

Doug Elliott wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 8:43 pm A different article from 2022 notes that "27 of its 30 violinists are now women" and at the time women outnumbered men in the whole orchestra.

Makes you wonder lots of things. If any of them had to go through the same hazing. And why Amanda was apparently the only one to stick up for her. Why it wasn't taken seriously by the orchestra, the legal system, or the union which should have protected her but instead protected the perps. And yes, how the tenure vote went.
Women don't wonder those things. If its a day of the week that ends in "Y" that stuff is happening everywhere, all at once, all the time.

But we hope it's getting better.
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Re: New York

Post by MStarke »

Interesting how a post on leadpipes or tuning slides can create hundreds of responses, but not only here but also on other media (FB) the trombone world is so quiet about this.
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Re: New York

Post by harrisonreed »

While the facts are impossible to know unless one was actually involved or a bystander, if the audiences are aware of the situation and want a different outcome they might try to withold support and demand accountability with their wallet.

Even if the legal decisions on these past events are set and remain unchanged, it could impact future handling and transparency of similar events. The payments and NDAs are kind of a smoking gun. Where there is smoke, there was a fire.
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Re: New York

Post by Lhbone »

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 5:34 am While the facts are impossible to know unless one was actually involved or a bystander, if the audiences are aware of the situation and want a different outcome they might try to withold support and demand accountability with their wallet.

Even if the legal decisions on these past events are set and remain unchanged, it could impact future handling and transparency of similar events. The payments and NDAs are kind of a smoking gun. Where there is smoke, there was a fire.
Liang Wang is scheduled to solo with the orchestra May 8-10. Would be a great opportunity for a protest. The program is conducted by none other than Jane Glover. Would love to know her thoughts on this. She obviously must be aware of the rumors around this individual and knew so before accepting this engagement.
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Re: New York

Post by GabrielRice »

This is a blight on our entire industry. It's not just the NY Phil, it's not just these two men, and we are all responsible to make the music world a better and safer place at every level, from student to amateur to the highest levels of the profession.

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Re: New York

Post by GabrielRice »

The statement in that article from an unnamed 802 officer is a disaster, but at the same time I can see why they felt they had to call for independent arbitration when their members protested being fired based on an investigation carried out and paid for entirely by the employer. The bigger mistake in my mind was both the union and the NY Phil agreeing to use that particular arbitrator, who had worked extensively in sports, mostly the NFL (which, for those not in the football-obsessed USA, is notorious for harboring men who abuse women).

Note that the article does tell us that the union and the orchestra have since agreed to change their process - specifically the standard of evidence required - for such matters.

Of course, there is the galling question of where 802 was back in 2011 and 2012 when the tenure decisions were being made...I served on the board of the Boston local for ten years and I hope we would have done better, but I can't know because we never had to face this kind of situation.
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Re: New York

Post by Burgerbob »

George Curran posted yesterday that he opposed the arbitration decision, something I haven't seen from anyone else yet. It was a breath of fresh air.
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Re: New York

Post by Lhbone »

Burgerbob wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 9:43 am George Curran posted yesterday that he opposed the arbitration decision, something I haven't seen from anyone else yet. It was a breath of fresh air.
Didn't the Phil say that as well? I guess it was good for an individual male brass player from the section to re-articulate those words, but I was less moved by his bravery.

“We are profoundly disappointed by the arbitrator's decision,” the Philharmonic said in a statement, adding: “While we obviously disagree with the arbitrator and stand by our original actions and decisions in this matter, we will, as we must, abide by the arbitrator's ruling and reinstate both players.” https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/arts ... %20players.”
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Re: New York

Post by Burgerbob »

Lhbone wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:25 am
Burgerbob wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 9:43 am George Curran posted yesterday that he opposed the arbitration decision, something I haven't seen from anyone else yet. It was a breath of fresh air.
Didn't the Phil say that as well? I guess it was good for an individual male brass player from the section to re-articulate those words, but I was less moved by his bravery.

“We are profoundly disappointed by the arbitrator's decision,” the Philharmonic said in a statement, adding: “While we obviously disagree with the arbitrator and stand by our original actions and decisions in this matter, we will, as we must, abide by the arbitrator's ruling and reinstate both players.” https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/arts ... %20players.”
You're right. I just haven't seen anything from anyone else in that orchestra individually about it, including in some milquetoast statements from others in that row.
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Re: New York

Post by Lhbone »

Burgerbob wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:29 am
Lhbone wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:25 am

Didn't the Phil say that as well? I guess it was good for an individual male brass player from the section to re-articulate those words, but I was less moved by his bravery.

“We are profoundly disappointed by the arbitrator's decision,” the Philharmonic said in a statement, adding: “While we obviously disagree with the arbitrator and stand by our original actions and decisions in this matter, we will, as we must, abide by the arbitrator's ruling and reinstate both players.” https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/arts ... %20players.”
You're right. I just haven't seen anything from anyone else in that orchestra individually about it, including in some milquetoast statements from others in that row.
Good point. I also want to acknowledge that he also mentioned the victims directly by name. Similar to the Seattle musicians post - saying their names directly brings power and validation to what those women went through and makes the message seem like it carries more weight than just blithe "thoughts and prayers".
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Re: New York

Post by harrisonreed »

“We are profoundly disappointed by the arbitrator's decision,” the Philharmonic said in a statement, adding: “While we obviously disagree with the arbitrator and stand by our original actions and decisions in this matter, we will, as we must, abide by the arbitrator's ruling and reinstate both players.” https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/arts ... %20players.”
[/quote]

"... reinstate and feature them as soloists!"

Let's say this is just imagery, but the official statement brings up an image of, let's say a choir, where an entire row of members have visibly crapped themselves on stage, but only a few members have pointed out the smell as offensive. The organization itself even acknowledges the terrible sight and smell, but allows the offensive choir members to stay, right next to their neighbors, with poopy pants.

Except that is too crazy to ever happen -- no director in their right mind or member of the choir would put up with a neighbor who had crapped their pants, which thankfully is something that can be accidentally done. Imagine if your coworker had done something much more offensive that couldn't be done accidentally.
Last edited by harrisonreed on Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New York

Post by Burgerbob »

That's what I don't really understand. There are SO many instances of musicians having small problems with each other and having to change seating arrangements, having rules about how close they can be, using different dressing rooms, you name it. If I were in that section... I'd be calling up my personnel manager and saying "I'm not playing a rehearsal or concert with them on it, thank you!"
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Re: New York

Post by Lhbone »

That brass section has the power and awe of the whole world. They could easily organize a walk out or refuse to play until appropriate changes are made. I don't fully understand how that would work with contracts and the union, but I imagine something could and would change. When Louisville tried to fire its musicians and hire off Craigslist back in the day, there was an agreement amongst the entire community that no one would take "that gig".
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Re: New York

Post by harrisonreed »

Lhbone wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:09 am That brass section has the power and awe of the whole world. They could easily organize a walk out or refuse to play until appropriate changes are made. I don't fully understand how that would work with contracts and the union, but I imagine something could and would change. When Louisville tried to fire its musicians and hire off Craigslist back in the day, there was an agreement amongst the entire community that no one would take "that gig".
I think that's the point of the outrage on Reddit and FB. That's the same section (again we don't know who exactly was on the tenure committee(s)) that voted 8 to 1 against Stewart.

If the article is to be believed, those are mostly the same people who did not raise their hands when something started to stink, and Stewart happened to be one of the ones who did raise her hand.
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Re: New York

Post by GabrielRice »

Lhbone wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 11:09 am That brass section has the power and awe of the whole world. They could easily organize a walk out or refuse to play until appropriate changes are made. I don't fully understand how that would work with contracts and the union, but I imagine something could and would change. When Louisville tried to fire its musicians and hire off Craigslist back in the day, there was an agreement amongst the entire community that no one would take "that gig".
Well...they would be in clear violation of their contracts in a way that is very difficult to defend.

This is a completely different situation from an organization trying to hire scabs.

The Vulture article mentioned a player who stopped accepting sub gigs from the NY Phil because of this situation. If freelancers agreed not to play there as subs or extras it would make things very difficult for the Philharmonic to operate, but it would also mean a lot of freelancers would be passing up what is certainly one of the best paying gigs in town.
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Re: New York

Post by LeTromboniste »

Re the organization: yes they wanted to fire them and did do "the right thing"...in 2018, after the MeToo movement reached classical music and a few institutions got badly burnt (The Met with Levine, the Montreal Symphony with Dutoit, Cleveland, etc) and others started preemptively cleaning house. Maybe I'm cynical but I see this as motivated by self-preservation, not by a will to do things right. Where had they been during the 8 years prior? They didn't seem to care, except when it came to give hush money to the victim to make her go away while sheltering and keeping the abusers. And since the arbitration? As Harrison points out they not only have their jobs, but they are given opportunities and featured as soloists – Liang Wang is scheduled to be featured in just three weeks...

Re the section (and more broadly the orchestra members): these guys are in the most privileged positions in the brass universe. They've got absolutely no excuse to remain silent. They've got an insane amount of influence, and let's imagine the most extreme scenario,, where they refuse to play or resign in protest. Leaving aside that it's highly doubtful the NY Phil would ever let their whole brass section walk away in block,.does anyone have any doubt that the orchestral world would be fighting for the chance to hire them next?
I am appalled by their complicity (although for at least one of them, it's hardly surprising to me, given their continued and public association with another well-known abuser).
Last edited by LeTromboniste on Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New York

Post by officermayo »

Just popped up on FB:

"DO YOU KNOW HOW HARD IT IS TO GET A JOB IN THE NEW YORK PHILHARMONIC?
I was never able to do it. No women, in fact, have ever held the principal oboe chair there. The orchestra is 181 years old. There’s been quite an anti-woman history, actually, held by owners of that oboe chair. I was actually kind of sort of close once. I played a trial week under Lorin Maazel. It was hell, if I’m to be honest, though I enjoyed playing for Maazel. The English horn player, Thomas Stacy, was an absolute complete dick to me. It was unreal. Later I found out that he slept with his men students. And later than that, a dear student of mine told me how Stacy tried to sleep with him when he was giving a masterclass. Anyway, I didn’t get the job and Liang Wang did. My teacher (and also Liang’s teacher), a Big Fancy Man, called the NYPhil’s personnel manager to find out why I didn’t get the job. I hadn’t asked him to, nor did I want him to, nor did I need him to—I was already a professional with a good job. Anyway, the personnel manager, his buddy for decades, told him they didn’t like my vibrato on tied notes. And so I got a phone call chewing me out about my vibrato on tied notes. And I was sweet to my teacher and thanked him for the call. I hope the NYPhil has been enjoying Liang’s vibrato on tied notes.

But it’s not about me. Most people can’t get a job in the New York Philharmonic. And that’s okay. Let’s talk about some people who *did* get jobs in the New York Philharmonic, Amanda Stewart and Cara Kizer. They were the first and second women to hold tenure-track positions in the brass section at the New York Philharmonic.
The orchestra is often touted as great for women because of some bullshit previous article in the NYTimes saying that there are now more women than men in the orchestra. For those of us who knew this “secret” when that article came out, it rang just as hollow as the recent statement from the Musicians of the New York Philharmonic. The fact is that women are under-represented as leaders there (only 4 principals out of 16, including a second violin, are women), there is only one woman brass player (the third ever, with the first two not getting tenure), and women don’t exist at all in the following sections: bass, clarinet, trumpet, trombone/tuba, and timpani/percussion. The large number of women come from the violin section of 29 players total. I believe just two of those 29 players to be men, including, most tellingly, the concertmaster, the most powerful player in the orchestra. (They’ve never had a woman concertmaster or music director at the NYPhil, either.) It’s funny that New York Magazine and not New York Times finally broke Cara's story. And that the New York Times was focusing on this bullshit, meaningless metric. It’s meaningless because everyone knows—and knew—what is actually acceptable treatment of women at the NYPhil.

Most titled positions in most Big Fancy Orchestras are not hired blindly (like that solo oboe position I referenced.) The mostly likely positions to be filled blindly are indeed section string positions, positions like the ones so many women in the violin section hold. When those people win auditions blindly, they beat out huge numbers of people, representing years and years of personal work, practicing hours upon hours a day since they were small children, and often borrowing and spending tons of money for educations and instruments. When people win auditions which are not blind, it represents similar work and excellence, too. Every person sitting on that stage represents hundreds, if not thousands, of other people in the profession who tried to get there but failed—people like me.
I don’t know if Amanda and Cara’s auditions were blind. But what I do know is that as the first two women in *that* brass section, of all brass sections, they must have presented themselves as absolutely extraordinary candidates. They likely had to do even better than the best men. And for that reason, the way the orchestra threw away their excellence should enrage us all. Alan Gilbert said Amanda didn’t “lay it down enough.” How did she go from everything was great to “serious concerns” within two months? By supporting a rape victim in an absolutely disgusting, misogynist environment, that’s how.

I cannot believe that none of these men, from Gilbert to the Brass Men, had the balls—yes, balls—to call this out. I cannot believe they would all just circle the wagons and oust these women when they knew there was a rape investigation ongoing. Maybe, just maybe, they’ve never had to think about things other than their playing when presenting themselves for jobs. Maybe, just maybe, they’ve never had to think about walking alone on a street at night. Maybe, just maybe, they’ve never had to think about a quid pro quo sexual overture at work. Maybe, just maybe, they’ve never had to think about walking around a man blocking a stairway. Maybe, just maybe, they’ve never had to think about how best to react to a man pinching their ass at work. Maybe, just maybe, they’ve never had to think about how to react to a man grabbing their breasts—or worse—at work. Maybe, just maybe, they’ve never had to think about how to negotiate a tenure process while being a rape victim.

So, the standard for joining the ranks as a brass player in 2011 at the New York Philharmonic was the following: If you’re a man: you have to play super great and better than thousands of other people. If you’re a woman: you have to play super great and better than thousands of other people and be willing to be raped, or watch other women get raped, and stay silent about it. Women joining the orchestra must be willing to be fucked against their will not just by some trumpet player, but by the whole orchestra. What egregious rot." - Katherine Needleman
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Re: New York

Post by dbwhitaker »

Apparently the Vulture article is having a least a little impact:

Philharmonic Sidelines 2 Players It Tried to Fire for Misconduct
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/15/arts ... =url-share
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Re: New York

Post by Kbiggs »

dbwhitaker wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:59 am Apparently the Vulture article is having a least a little impact:

Philharmonic Sidelines 2 Players It Tried to Fire for Misconduct
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/15/arts ... =url-share
It’s a good first step.
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Re: New York

Post by Burgerbob »

I'm sure the management there has been looking for any excuse to get rid of these two.
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Re: New York

Post by Posaunus »

Burgerbob wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:16 am I'm sure the management there has been looking for any excuse to get rid of these two.
And there is a multitude of oboists and trumpeters eager to audition for these spots.
(And probably hoping that Gustavo Dudamel will eventually improve the culture of this hallowed institution!)
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Re: New York

Post by GabrielRice »

Burgerbob wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:16 am I'm sure the management there has been looking for any excuse to get rid of these two.
And yet...Wang was scheduled to play a concerto in a few weeks.
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Re: New York

Post by GabrielRice »

This blog articulates well a lot of thoughts I share about the role of the union in this matter. Due process is important, and I don't think its entirely fair to assume local 802 was defending them per se.

Edit: Apparently it was written by Robert Levine:

Robert Levine has been the principal violist of the Milwaukee Symphony since September 1987. He has also been a member of the Orford Quartet in residence at the University of Toronto, and principal violist of the Saint Paul Chamber Orchestra, the Oklahoma City Symphony, and the London (Ontario) Symphony.

Robert is an active chamber musician, having performed at many American and overseas festivals in addition to numerous concerts in the Twin Cities and Milwaukee. He is chairman emeritus of the International Conference of Symphony and Opera Musicians, president of the Milwaukee Musicians Association, Local 8 AFM, and a member of the Board of Directors of the League of American Orchestras. He has also written extensively about issues concerning orchestra musicians for publications of the American Federation of Musicians, the League of American Orchestras, the Symphony Orchestra Institute, and the Association for Union Democracy, as well as for his own blogs. Robert attended Stanford University, the University of Reading (UK), and the Institute for Advanced Musical Studies in Switzerland.
Last edited by GabrielRice on Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New York

Post by Burgerbob »

GabrielRice wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:16 pm
Burgerbob wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:16 am I'm sure the management there has been looking for any excuse to get rid of these two.
And yet...Wang was scheduled to play a concerto in a few weeks.
That may have been in his contract... I know it's not uncommon for principals.
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Re: New York

Post by GabrielRice »

Burgerbob wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:28 pm
GabrielRice wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:16 pm

And yet...Wang was scheduled to play a concerto in a few weeks.
That may have been in his contract... I know it's not uncommon for principals.
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Re: New York

Post by Posaunus »

GabrielRice wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:20 pm This blog articulates well a lot of thoughts I share about the role of the union in this matter. Due process is important, and I don't think its entirely fair to assume local 802 was defending them per se.
I agree. It's the union's responsibility to ask for full "due process" for their members. And to accede to the legal consequences. The fly in the ointment in this case was the arbitrator who issued a "binding" decision that was (it seems to me) arbitrary and incorrect, that could not be appealed in spite of (earlier and) later revelations. In any case, it was (is) an ugly turn of events, painful to all involved.
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Re: New York

Post by Kbiggs »

I’m going to go out on a limb here by asking a question about complicity:

Is it fair to state that the rest of the brass section are complicit in Amanda Stewart’s dismissal? I ask because assuming someone knows the truth about a situation is not the same as that person actually knowing the truth.

Some of us who are not privy to the NY Phil’s inside workings—including me—have assumed that the rest of the low brass section must have known what was happening. It’s pretty easy to imagine what might have happened. Kizer is assaulted, Muckey lies and denies, Wang lies, denies, and runs interference. Rumors would fly, people would whisper. During the tour, and especially once the orchestra returns to NYC, the tenured members of the orchestra and especially the low brass would know that something extra-musical is happening, but they wouldn’t know what. Various calls to and from HR, the personnel manager, the union, management, the MD. People would see Kizer and Stewart spending more time in the offices of HR, management, etc. Wild assumptions and more rumors would fly.

It’s easy to think, “Well, the rest of the brass section must have known. They work alongside each other almost every day.” How often has something happened to a co-worker that you were not aware of until after the fact? Even when people are some of the best in their field, it doesn’t mean they can’t be influenced by others who are highly adept at using deception and manipulation to achieve their ends.

None of this is meant to excuse anyone for any actions taken. This is only an explanation of what may have happened, given what we do know about human behavior.

Of course, if people in the orchestra knew what happened and voted to deny tenure, then shame on them.
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Re: New York

Post by harrisonreed »

Kbiggs wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 10:53 am I’m going to go out on a limb here by asking a question about complicity:

Is it fair to state that the rest of the brass section are complicit in Amanda Stewart’s dismissal?
I guess you should ask that question to Amanda Stewart. Here is a quote from the article:
But within a month, Stewart said, members of the brass section had begun criticizing her support for Kizer.

“How dare a probationary, non-tenured member accuse a tenured member of anything,” Stewart claimed a musician in the brass section told her. At one point during the orchestra’s fall tour in Europe, Stewart took a photo of Muckey moving close to Kizer. Stewart said Alan Baer, the orchestra’s tuba player, saw her take the photo and pulled her aside a few days later.

“‘If you don’t stop supporting her publicly, this is going to harm your tenure,’” Stewart said that Baer warned her. (Three people confirmed that Stewart told them about this conversation at the time. Baer denies he said this to Stewart.)

Around Thanksgiving 2010, an “emergency meeting” was called by members of Stewart’s tenure committee. Though Stewart was traveling, Schiebler called to tell her that “things do not look good” because there were “major concerns” about her playing.

On February 11, Alan Gilbert, the orchestra’s then–music director and conductor, told Stewart that she didn’t “lay it down enough.” She would not be receiving tenure. Stewart says that a member of the tenure committee told her that the vote had gone against her eight to one. She believed that taking the photo in Europe “was the nail in my coffin.”
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Re: New York

Post by jacobgarchik »

The blog that Gabe posted a link to implies that being denied tenure is very rare. If so that is an even more damning detail.
Alessi appears to have posted a statement to his FB and then deleted it.
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Re: New York

Post by LeTromboniste »

There is simply no way they didn't know. Yes we can conceive they might not have known immediately afterwards, and they might never have known as much details as are now public, but there is exactly zero chance they didn't know anything between 2010 and 2018. It seems it was an open secret throughout both the NYC scene and the trumpet scene. I, who has absolutely not the remotest of ties to New York, heard some rumours about it around 2014-16. I can't conceive of any scenario where Alessi et al knew nothing.
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Re: New York

Post by Burgerbob »

jacobgarchik wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 11:51 am The blog that Gabe posted a link to implies that being denied tenure is very rare. If so that is an even more damning detail.
Alessi appears to have posted a statement to his FB and then deleted it.
An AI-generated "statement", even
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Re: New York

Post by Kbiggs »

LeTromboniste wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 12:24 pm There is simply no way they didn't know. Yes we can conceive they might not have known immediately afterwards, and they might never have known as much details as are now public, but there is exactly zero chance they didn't know anything between 2010 and 2018. It seems it was an open secret throughout both the NYC scene and the trumpet scene. I, who has absolutely not the remotest of ties to New York, heard some rumours about it around 2014-16. I can't conceive of any scenario where Alessi et al knew nothing.
As Harrison noted, Stewart alleges that Alan Baer knew something, and several people corroborate Stewart.

We can all assume that Alessi et al knew something. But—and this is why I’m suggesting caution—we don’t know. We don’t have all the facts.

I agree, it seems almost preposterous that anybody in the NY Phil brass section or even the whole orchestra wasn’t aware. But—it is possible. And we don’t know all the details—why everyone except Stewart chose to speak up about Muckey’s abhorrent behavior.

(Yes, we can argue about the morality of not speaking up in this instance. I will not argue for keeping silent, and would further argue that silence is equal to complicity, perhaps even tacit approval, even when blackmailed—which is what happened to Stewart. But that’s beside the point of who knew what when, and why they decided to vote against tenure for Stewart.)

I have no doubts about what Muckey did—he raped Kizer. Wang is at least complicit, if not more. Hopefully, they will face some consequences.

I’m neither defending nor accusing anyone. I’m only suggesting caution at a time when it’s easy to allow our outrage to cloud reason and facts.
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Re: New York

Post by harrisonreed »

Have you been on tour with a band or large ensemble before?
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Re: New York

Post by Burgerbob »

I have a very, very hard time believing anyone was in the dark. Some members of that section that joined after this event have posted that they knew all but the fine details.
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Re: New York

Post by Burgerbob »

Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: New York

Post by Kbiggs »

harrisonreed wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 4:27 pm Have you been on tour with a band or large ensemble before?
Yep. And I’m one of those guys that didn’t hit on anyone else, and if anyone else hit on me, I ignored it. But that’s me. My operating system is a little different.

https://annemidgette.com/blog/f/an-open ... n6Q8mPv9hN

Yes, I’ve read it.

Like I said, I’m going out on a limb, and I know it’s an unpopular opinion. I’m only suggesting that we wait until we all know more.

The NY Phil brass, and perhaps even the entire orchestra, have already been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion. Anne Midgette’s blog is very convincing, along with a couple of other things I’ve seen in FB rabbit-hole. When we all know more, then we’ll all be more sure.

When more is revealed—and I’m certain we’ll all learn more of the awful, maddening details soon enough—we’ll have the opportunity to figure who knew what, when did they know it, what they did, and why they did it. We’ll have more information to form an opinion/judgment about the behavior of the people who have been revered for their musicianship.

***
Side note: It’s deplorable how humanity has, throughout history, accepted the reprehensible and criminal behavior of some people because they’re artists, or politicians, or teachers, or leaders. Muckey and Wang… I really don’t know what would be an appropriate punishment for people who drug, rape, and gaslight their colleagues.

And I don’t know what would be an appropriate punishment for people who tacitly accept the deplorable behavior of their colleagues, and then vote to prevent another colleague from gaining tenure simply because they supported their injured colleague (they demonstrated compassion, along with morally and ethically appropriate behavior).

***
When we know more—or rather, when the investigating committee and the police know more—we’ll be able to make appropriate judgments and determine an appropriate punishment.
Kenneth Biggs
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
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