Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

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ClassicFrog
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Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by ClassicFrog »

Hi, first post here, I've been reading these forums for a while but never posted before.

I've searched and searched and I cant seem to find a good complete bass trombone slide chart for all the different combinations of T1, T2, and TT. Most charts I find only have listing for the low B natural for TT but I know there are many other valid notes you can play with TT. Yes I can probably just use my tuner and go through each partial series and make my own chart but would be nice if someone already made one that I could just reference.

So to reiterate I am looking for a comprehensive chart that shows each note on the staff and every combination of slide position and triggers that will produce that note on an independent double valve bass trombone. (even if the combination is considered "not ideal" or hard to tune). Has anyone seen one of these floating around online or even for sale in a book somewhere.

Thanks
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BGuttman
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by BGuttman »

Have you looked on Doug Yeo's site (www.yeodoug.com)? He has position charts for all sorts of bass trombones.

As to using both triggers, it somewhat depends on how the two triggers are tuned. On a Bb/F/Gb/D, the two triggers give you low D in 1st position (can be somewhat flat); Db in TT2, C in TT3 (approximately 4th position on the open horn), B natural in TT4 (between 5th and 6th on the open horn), and if your slide is long enough Bb in TT5.

Remember that double trigger positions are longer than single trigger positions, which in turn are longer than open horn positions.
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AtomicClock
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by AtomicClock »

BGuttman wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 8:36 am Remember that double trigger positions are longer than single trigger positions, which in turn are longer than open horn positions
...which means you'll have to spend that time with your tuner anyway.
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by Kdanielsen »

Kris Danielsen D.M.A.

Westfield State University and Keene State College
Lecturer of Low Brass

Principal Trombone, New England Repertory Orchestra
2nd Trombone, Glens Falls Symphony
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by marccromme »

Buy Aronhari bass trombone book, and you find it all nicely explained us clever etudes for practicing. Plus the mentioned slide position charts.
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by GGJazz »

Hi.

In my opinion , being that ( of course) we only have an handslide , of the same length , for both open
horn and valve/valves horn , I think that would be helpful , expecially for beginners bass trbn players , to have a clear idea about where a X single valve / double valves position should be .

When in some charts/ books it is wrote " both valves pitched in D " 3rd position , that is the position for low C ( and his harmonic series) , one have to know that this is the 4th positions on an open Bb horn ; when it is wrote "single valve in F " 3rd position , as for low Eb , this is a bb3 position on open Bb horn ( bb3 means a pretty lowered 3rd position) ; etc .

I do not think this is so "intuitive" ; many times i see young players playing a low A on open horn ( of course in 2nd position) , then playing a B a step above just adding the F valve , with any adjustment at all...

So , I think would be good a chart that show all the valve/valves positions compared to the open Bb horn ( F valve : F 1st pos , E b2nd , Eb bb3rd , D #5th , Db 6th , C bb7th . D double valves : D 1st pos. Db bb2nd , C 4th , B b5th , Bb b7th )

I think one can find a good chart in the Alan Raph book " The double valve bass trombone" .
This book was conceived for dependant bass trbn , but the Gb single valve positions are pretty similar to F single valve positions . I found that on Gb single valve the positions have to be a little bit lowered , compared to the F single valve . Low E on single F valve , and low F on single Gb valve , does not match exactly in the same position b2 .

Regards
Giancarlo
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ghmerrill
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by ghmerrill »

You may find this to be worth looking at:

"A MODERN PEDAGOGICAL METHOD FOR DEVELOPING VALVE TECHNIQUE ON INDEPENDENT DOUBLE VALVE BASS TROMBONE " (Christopher Sharpe, DMA Dissertation)
https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67 ... N-2019.pdf

I think that you won't really find what you're looking for -- mostly because although you CAN play a variety of pitches on the valve(s) above the D in the staff, there really doesn't seem much point to that -- except perhaps in some contrived compositions or some trills (?).
Last edited by ghmerrill on Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gary Merrill
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ghmerrill
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by ghmerrill »

marccromme wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:56 am Buy Aronhari bass trombone book, and you find it all nicely explained us clever etudes for practicing. Plus the mentioned slide position charts.
There's a lot of good stuff in Aharoni, but he doesn't have any exercises for higher pitches using one or more valves.
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone
DE LB K/K10/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Bach 12c)
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by AtomicClock »

ghmerrill wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:44 pm I think that you won't really find what you're looking for -- mostly because although you CAN play a variety of pitches on the valve(s) above the D in the staff, there really seem much point to that
I suspect OP is primarily a valve player (euph and horn in "stable"). So maybe it's enough to assure them that learning 2nd partial (and the equivalent pedal range) is sufficient, with a handful of 3rd partial notes as a bonus.
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ghmerrill
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by ghmerrill »

AtomicClock wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:12 pm I suspect OP is primarily a valve player (euph and horn in "stable").
Interesting hypothesis, and I'm inclined to go along with it. But that would make me even more of a valve player and I don't FEEL like I'm primarily a valve player. I'd like to at least IDENTIFY as a trombone player. But maybe the bass trombone is really a valve instrument since it's got two valves and the one slide (we can't count the tuning slide). And now I'm really conflicted.

However, I suppose it's true that many (primarily) valve players must be somewhat shocked to think "But wait ... you mean that extra valve is only for ONE pitch? You guys added a whole extra valve for ONE PITCH?" (an impression that some (primarily) trombone players are inclined to give at times). :lol: And that is consistent with the OP's observation that "Most charts I find only have listing for the low B natural for TT ."
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone
DE LB K/K10/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Bach 12c)
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Sesquitone
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by Sesquitone »

ClassicFrog wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 5:39 am I've searched and searched and I can't seem to find a good complete bass trombone slide chart for all the different combinations of T1, T2, and TT. Most charts I find only have listing for the low B natural for TT but I know there are many other valid notes you can play with TT.
From what you have written, it appears that you have the common in-line tuning: Bb/F(thumb)-Gb(finger)-D(double)--and that you are using T1 to indicate the thumb-trigger, T2 for the finger-trigger, and TT for the double combination. In the following Equitempered-Tone/Slide-Position (ETSP) Chart, black dots indicate slide-alone positions, open circles are for the thumb-trigger (T1) attachment, 'stars' are for the finger-trigger (T2) attachment, and 'cartwheels' for the double (TT) combination.

The attachment positions in this ETSP Chart are for strict F and Gb tuning, in which case the 'D' is slightly flat (and would need to be pulled in against slide bumpers). If you tune each of the 'F' and 'Gb' attachments about 5¢ sharp (so that both of these attachment's positions are very slightly longer), this will bring the D into tune with the slide (gently) closed. In that case, Db2 will be about half-way between slide-alone (SA) 2nd and 3rd, C2 will be a 'shade' past SA 4th, B1 about half-way between SA 5th and 6th, and the (non-pedal) Bb1 right at SA 7th. And the same for all their pedals, of course.

The chart shows the first three harmonics of the F attachment, the first four harmonics of the Gb attachment, and the first two harmonics of the D combination. Higher attachment harmonics pretty much overlap slide-alone harmonics, and are not useful except for some 'special effects'.

The shaded regions are bordered by chromatic scales using
(a) shortest possible slide positions (red) and
(b) longest possible slide positions (blue).

The reason for this is to show, at a glance, where alternate positions are available--in the unshaded portions. Where the coloured shadings touch, there are no alternates. A good rule-of-thumb is: the wider the unshaded regions, the more facile the slide manipulation. As is the case with the register above the Bb fourth harmonic, where there are lots of alternate-position options (the harmonics are separated vertically by thirds and seconds) making for much more facile slide manipulation for arpeggios and scales. Note that the Gb-attachment alternates help in this respect in the (otherwise awkward) low-tenor register.

Once you know (by muscle memory) where each tone is on the respective harmonics of each attachment, you should 'think' of the attachment positions in their own respective 'keys' [T1(1), T1(2), . . . T2(1), T2(2), . . . , TT(1), TT(2), . . .] rather than as 'adjusted (or altered) slide-alone positions'. To make designations of positions a little clearer, I would suggest using 'T' for thumb, 'F' for finger, and 'D' for double. Then you can specify positions more easily as T1, T2, T3, . . . , F1, F2, F3, . . . , D1, D2, D3, . . . &c. And this reminds you which digit(s) is/are being used.

I hope this helps.


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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by AtomicClock »

ghmerrill wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:46 pm But that would make me even more of a valve player and I don't FEEL like I'm primarily a valve player.
The hypothesis is based on the stable PLUS the #1 question. I suspect (with no evidence) that trombonists are more aware of what partial they are playing than out valved brass brethren. The slide makes obvious what the valves may obscure; that you are lowering a main pitch by degree.
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by ghmerrill »

True.
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Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
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ghmerrill
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by ghmerrill »

Sesquitone wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:47 pm From what you have written, it appears that you have the common in-line tuning: Bb/F(thumb)-Gb(finger)-D(double)--and that you are using T1 to indicate the thumb-trigger, T2 for the finger-trigger, and TT for the double combination. In the following Equitempered-Tone/Slide-Position (ETSP) Chart, black dots indicate slide-alone positions, open circles are for the thumb-trigger (T1) attachment, 'stars' are for the finger-trigger (T2) attachment, and 'cartwheels' for the double (TT) combination.
That chart is a brilliant representation of all of the possibilities and their relations to one another. As data modelling, it's GREAT and I am in awe of the effort and result! But when I look at it, my eyes hurt because it's perceptual overload. I have, however, used it to create "mini" or "local" or "partial" position charts that I can use in a practical manner. It's the language of all languages, and I need to translate it into something I can process. So I do thank you for it.
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone
DE LB K/K10/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Bach 12c)
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by Sesquitone »

ghmerrill wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:58 pm But when I look at it, my eyes hurt because it's perceptual overload.
Actually, it's just the same information as could be found in position charts using staff notation. The problem with the latter is that they soon get very 'cluttered' with lines and spaces and sharps, flats and naturals--mashed too close together in the upper register. The ETSP Chart (giving a separate line for each tone of the chromatic scale) is a precise graphical portrayal of all available (equitempered) tones on all harmonics (slide-alone and attachments). It's easy to 'get used to'!
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by AtomicClock »

I'll confess I never saw much value in any of these slide position charts. I think I saw my first chart in 7th grade, so I had 2 years' worth of Rubank exercises under my belt. Then, when I got an F valve, the basic concept was taught, and fooling around with some 8vb was sufficient. Same with a D valve later on. Heck, I didn't use a chart to learn Eb alto, either.
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

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Sesquitone wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:17 pm It's easy to 'get used to'!
I suspect that you really know from your own experience in engineering education that there is a pretty broad class of potential "students" for whom this just isn't true. ;) But I love it nonetheless.
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone
DE LB K/K10/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R
1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Bach 12c)
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by Sesquitone »

ghmerrill wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:40 pm
Sesquitone wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:17 pm It's easy to 'get used to'!
I suspect that you really know from your own experience in engineering education that there is a pretty broad class of potential "students" for whom this just isn't true. ;) But I love it nonetheless.
With enough 'homework exercises', engineering students can 'get used to' much more sophisticated concepts than an ETSP Chart. Mohr's circle comes to mind--although, these days, you just have to 'plug-into' the appropriate computational software package (perhaps without really knowing how it 'works').

PS Homework exercise (for 'getting used to' an ETSP Chart): plot out (i.e. using connecting lines between adjacent scale-tones) all possible 8-note Bb major bebop scales (i.e. using all available alternate positions, including attachment alternates) over the complete range (up to F5) on the Bb/F-Gb-D ETSP Chart given above. [Bb, C, D, Eb, F, F#, G, A, (Bb).] Since all the slide-alone and attachment harmonics are independent from each other, you may use slide-position increments Along Individual Harmonics (AIH) or Between Adjacent Harmonics (BAH), but, for 'clean' articulation, avoid 'jumping over' intermediate harmonics of the same 'kind'. For example, you may move from Bb2 (in SA 1st position on the second harmonic) to C3 (in SA 6th on the third harmonic), while 'jumping over' both of the F-attachment's and Gb-attachment's third harmonics--since they are both of different kind from the SA harmonics. But not from Bb3 (in SA 1st on the fourth harmonic) to C4 (in SA 6th on the sixth harmonic), because that would be jumping over the slide-alone fifth harmonic (i.e. of the same kind), where, if using lip-slurs, the sound could accidentally 'trip' on that harmonic and cause an inadvertent B-natural to sound, in between the Bb and C.

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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

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Sesquitone wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:54 pm
With enough 'homework exercises', engineering students can 'get used to' much more sophisticated concepts than an ETSP Chart.
Yes, ENGINEERING students can.
Sesquitone wrote: PS Homework exercise (for 'getting used to' an ETSP Chart): plot out (i.e. using connecting lines between adjacent scale-tones) all possible 8-note Bb major bebop scales (i.e. using all available alternate positions, including attachment alternates) over the complete range (up to F5) on the Bb/F-Gb-D ETSP Chart given above. [Bb, C, D, Eb, F, F#, G, A, (Bb)].
Response to exercise from non-STEM student: <tosses exercise in nearest trash basket> (And you lost them at "plot out," or maybe even "homework exercise.")

I don't want to engage in argument about this. However, I will leave you with two words with which I assume you're already familiar from work you've done in data representation and visualization, but may merit revisiting: Edward Tufte. :)
Gary Merrill
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Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

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This brings up a topic appropriate for the Teaching and Learning section, particularly for trombones with their continuously variable slide positions (and, sometimes, with attachments). Namely, the cognitive challenge of reading music in staff notation. First, we have five parallel horizontal lines (the staff), where the lines themselves represent certain note names, and the spaces between represent other note names. Not to mention ledger lines (and spaces). A clef and, maybe, a 'key signature'. Then there are those dots or loops sitting on lines or spaces, with stems attached, and little hooks on the ends (or barred together)--or little squiggles (for rests)--telling us to play certain note names a designated length of time--or not. But, before that, we need to modify the pitch according to signs for sharp, flat, or natural. If we play a euphonium (or other valved brass instrument) we need to know which combination of valves to press and which harmonic to shoot for, chosen from second, third, and fifth harmonics and their upper octaves, and maybe ninth (not seventh, eleventh, thirteenth, . . .). For a trombone, we need to select an appropriate hand-slide position and the respective harmonic (including, especially, the seventh, also the ninth, eleventh, thirteenth, . . .)--often to be chosen from a wide variety of optional positions, especially in the upper register (the 'unshaded' portions of the ETSP Chart). And we need to get the chosen slide extension 'exactly' right (to within a few millimetres). Primarily by muscle memory (without too much 'analytic thinking'). And all this has to be done 'instantaneously' and synchronised with other players.

There are a lot of cognitive challenges along the way--in transforming that 'graphical portrayal' in staff notation into beautiful music.

The beauty of staff notation is its vertical efficiency--cramming the 12 notes of an octave of the chromatic scale into just over four lines or spaces. Thanks to those pesky sharps, flats and naturals.

That last point about 'instantaneously' and 'synchronised' brings up another topic not often discussed in music pedagogy (or any other areas), namely: Libet Time. This is the time delay between events that are happening in the environment (including within one's own body, including the brain) and your 'awareness' of those events. For humans, the Libet time is about 500 milliseconds (i.e. about half a second, plus or minus, for different people). If you are marching along in a marching band playing a jolly march at MM = 120, 'observing' (i.e. being aware of) your feet hitting the ground as: left, right, left, right, . . . , you feet are actually hitting the ground as: right, left, right, left, . . . ! This is why there are so many aces in men's tennis. A world-class professional server can put the ball in the receiver's court in about a quarter of a second. At this point, the receiver is just aware of the server about half-way through his serve. If the receiver is successful in returning the ball, he has done so (by 'reflex') before he is aware of the server finishing the serve. If you are improvising with a lot of fast notes, you will have played several of those notes before you are aware of which notes you have 'decided' to play! This, of course, brings up all sorts of philosophical questions about 'Free Will'. And it will keep philosophers and neuroscientists busy for some time. One last example. If you are travelling along the highway in your car at a leisurely 60 MPH (88 feet per second), your car (together with everything in it, including you) is nearly four car-lengths ahead of where you think it is. Drive carefully!

Orchestra members need to rehearse together enough so that they can equalise their individual Libet Times. Probably, we've all had the feeling of 'being in the zone' or having a really strong 'groove', whether reading from sheet music, playing from memory, or improvising. This has a lot to do with everybody being 'in sync', with a common Libet Time. If you are sight-reading from sheet music, all those cognitive challenges have collapsed into an instantaneous conversion of an observed graphical display into appropriate sounds--but, of course, occurring half-a-second before you (and the other musicians, the conductor, if any, and the audience members) are aware of those sounds being made!



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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

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Thank you all for the very thorough responses! I have much to consider. Sorry for not checking back sooner, I was actually waiting for an email from the admins lettings me know my question was posted and I never got that. Some of these replies indicate attachments and I see a message at the bottom of them "You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post." And while this particular question is off topic, how do I get the elevated permissions needed to view these attachments?
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

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In case anyone was wondering, here's the 'solution' to the previously mentioned 'homework problem'. The blue lines show all possible hand-slide 'pathways' to spell out: Bb, C, D, Eb, F, F#, G, A, (Bb)--red-coloured tones--from the lowest pedal register up to F5. [Please mentally erase the unused non-coloured tones. Also the dashed lines, which are there to show major-second increments between adjacent harmonics.] I've coloured in some of the characteristic scalar 'cells' in the upper register for easy reference. As you can see, things get a little 'messy' near the F and Gb attachment's harmonics. This is because the harmonics for this (quite popular) tuning are simply too close together. Bollinger tuning of the finger-trigger attachment spreads them apart a little bit. G-natural tuning of the finger-trigger attachment (keeping the thumb-trigger F attachment) a little more. Even better (actually, best for in-line tuning) is to use the G-natural attachment with the thumb-trigger (compatible with the single-trigger Bb/G tenor) and lower the other attachment to a nominal E-natural (tuned 20¢ sharp)--thereby maintaining a perfectly-in-tune D double:
Bb/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double).


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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

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ClassicFrog wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 2:59 pm Thank you all for the very thorough responses! I have much to consider. Sorry for not checking back sooner, I was actually waiting for an email from the admins lettings me know my question was posted and I never got that. Some of these replies indicate attachments and I see a message at the bottom of them "You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post." And while this particular question is off topic, how do I get the elevated permissions needed to view these attachments?
Permission comes when you have 3 approved posts. It used to be 2, but we had an invasion of spammers and 'bots that posted ads for all kinds of useless (and possibly counterfeit) stuff like male enhancements, real estate in Russia, and "guaranteed" money making ideas. We managed to get rid of them with the third post.
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

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BGuttman wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 4:50 pm Permission comes when you have 3 approved posts. It used to be 2, but we had an invasion of spammers and 'bots that posted ads for all kinds of useless (and possibly counterfeit) stuff like male enhancements, real estate in Russia, and "guaranteed" money making ideas. We managed to get rid of them with the third post.
Understood. That makes sense. I'm amazed they get around the slide position quiz in the account set up page.

I found this pdf to be most useful until I could get access to the other attachments, thank you Kdanielsen
Kdanielsen wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:25 am https://olemiss.edu/lowbrass/lowbrassm ... ertone.pdf

This one is pretty good.
some context for my initial inquiry:
I'm an amateur tenor trombone player whos been playing for about 30 years. Just recently got asked to play in the local orchestra to cover the bass trombone part and I found my conn88h wasn't up to the task of producing the sound the director wanted. So I used that invitation as an excuse to pick up a new shires TBQ36YR. Its a great horn and served me well for the winter season. Currently I am having some issues with my precision and intonation at the far end of my slide during the fast chromatic progression at the beginning of the William tell overture. That is what brought me here looking for some mappings for using my triggers to better effect. With the chart above I think I have a more comfortable set of positions that will help me achieve the velocity I was hoping for.

I am still interested in the other attachments provided.
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by BGuttman »

They hit me with William Tell in High School when they were considering adding brass to the string orchestra.

I discovered that the E major arpeggio at the end worked well in a lower trigger position (nobody talked about tone quality back then). I also practiced those fast runs in the "storm scene" and made them work well with a bunch of alternate positions.

I had the school's King Symphony from about 1958 to play.
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by GGJazz »

Hi aĺl.

@ClassicFrog : if you really need a chart alredy available , I think that the easiest way is to check the one Kdanielsen posted above . There is just all you need to know , and you do not have to buy any book .

The Sesquitone charts are "admirable" , but I agree with what Gary Merrill wrote above.

About the tuning of the two valves ( F/Gb/D) , I would like to add a thought .

In my opinion , to have a in tune D with both valves engaged , it is better just to tune the Gb valve a bit sharp , rathers than both valves ( as suggested above by Sesquitone) . So this Gb have to be a #Gb , because it have to be the same as a #5th position on open horn , that is the position' length you add to the F valve to have the low D. Not a full 5th position , but a #5th . So with this #Gb valve , you will play an in tune Gb in a b1st position , and for these reasons , I wrote above that the second valve positions are a bit lowered compared to F valve positions. ( I already wrote about this thing in my replies -aug 03 2022- in the thread "Teaching the Gb valve" - jan 19 2021-) . To get this #Gb valve tuning , on my independent King 8B , it is enough to keep the second valve tuning slide all way in .

Of course , will be the same for F/G/Eb tuning : it will become F / #G / Eb .

To me it is easier to keep the F valve reguarly tuned , because you have already a lots of extra positions' adjustments to do , with the double valve bass trbn . Keep it as simple as you can !

Regards
Giancarlo

EDiT : to OP , I just see now that you got the Kdanielsen chart !
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by ClassicFrog »

Thank you everyone! This has been most helpful. Sesquitone, this chart your provided is amazing (now that I have been identified as human and can see it). Took me a good 15 minutes to wrap my head around what I was seeing and its not something I can use at a glance but its absolutely useful.
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by Sesquitone »

ClassicFrog wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 11:38 am Thank you everyone! This has been most helpful. Sesquitone, this chart your provided is amazing (now that I have been identified as human and can see it). Took me a good 15 minutes to wrap my head around what I was seeing and it's not something I can use at a glance but it's absolutely useful.
You're most welcome. Let me know (either here or by private email) if you have any questions about ETSP Charts in general or specific points in particular, and I'll be happy to try to answer in detail. Good luck, as you progress with your studies of the bass trombone!

By the way, what you (and any other human) can 'see at a glance' from ETSP Charts is how the unshaded regions get wider in higher registers. This is a good 'diagnostic' indicating better slide facility (because of the availability of more alternate positions). [It's an important diagnostic when designing alternative valve-tuning systems—where the design objective is providing wider unshaded regions (better slide facility) in otherwise awkward lower registers.]

Benny Leonard
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by Sesquitone »

BGuttman wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 6:50 pm They hit me with William Tell in High School when they were considering adding brass to the string orchestra.

I discovered that the E major arpeggio at the end worked well in a lower trigger position (nobody talked about tone quality back then). I also practiced those fast runs in the "storm scene" and made them work well with a bunch of alternate positions.
Many of us have had "fun" playing 'William Tell'. This is a bit off-topic, but have a look at how well the 'Storm Scene' sits when played on the Bb/G (i.e single-trigger minor-third attachment) tenor. The circled position numbers are with the G-natural attachment. The brackets show hand-slide motion along a single (slide-alone or attachment) harmonic. [It almost looks like it was written for a (bass) trombone in G. But that long slide would never have fit in the cramped Paris Opera pit!] Particularly note measures 108–109, where the B3 is played on the attachment's fifth harmonic, thereby maintaining inward slide motion from the end of measure 107, rather than jerking back out to 4th position. But the B in measures 112–113 is played in 4th position, maintaining outward slide motion from the previous measure.


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GGJazz
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by GGJazz »

Hello all.
Hello Sesquitone .

In my opinion , a G attachment in a tenor trbn is not so useful , being that you have a B in staff in T4 position , that is a #5th position on the open horn . If you have to play , in a fast line , this B coming from the Bb in the staff , it is a pretty big jump . The same for the C in the staff , that with G valve is in T3 position , that is a bb3 postion on open horn . In my mind , the main utility of a valve should be to have the open horn long positions , 6th and 7th , close to the 1st position ( as happens with F valve , or Gb valve too) .

To me , tuning a valve in G can be a good way to tune the second valve in a double independant bass trbn , having F/(#)G/Eb. Some players like this set of valves. I find the F/Eb tuning useful for dependant horn also .

For a single valve (tenor trbn) , i guess the best choice could be the "popular" F tuning , or a Gb tuning.

To make an exemple , for the Ouverture to William Tell , if your valve is Gb tuned , you can play the first phrase this way : B , C , C# with the valve , starting in T3 ( bb3) to 1st pos. Then D , D# , E on open horn ( from 4th to 2nd ) and the F# in 1st with valve . Then the others notes , G , A , A# , B, C, B , G, F# , on open horn .

Anyway , I think that less you play valved notes in the staff , the better your tone would be , because the valved tones does not sound as resonant as in the open horn , in that range , even with thayer valve .

So , in my opinion , being that the William Tell is marked FF as dynamics , the better thing is to perform it as showed in the video below , starting the chromatic line on a B on 7th position on open horn . It is pretty difficult , but this is our job , being that we play a SLIDE trombone (as well with single valve / double valves) .

Christian Jones ( bass trbn) , Ouverture to William Tell :


Regards
Giancarlo
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by brassmedic »

Kdanielsen wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:25 am https://olemiss.edu/lowbrass/lowbrassm ... ertone.pdf

This one is pretty good.
As GGJazz pointed out, this chart is denoting the positions as they would be in whatever key the valve combinations put the instrument in. I'm not sure how useful that is to someone who is learning. I don't think of the trigger positions as being an entirely new set of longer positions when I engage a valve; I think of it as the Bb positions I already know. For example, low C with both valves is 4th position, not 3rd. Low Db with one valve is flat 6th position. Low D with one valve is 5th position, etc.
Brad Close Brass Instruments - brassmedic.com
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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by Sesquitone »

GGJazz wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 5:47 pm In my opinion, a G attachment in a tenor trbn is not so useful.
Since the original post enquired about hand-slide positions for bass-trombone attachments, it would be drifting way off topic to get into 'discussions' here about the best attachment tuning for single-valve tenor trombones—for enhanced slide facility in the otherwise very awkward low-tenor register (without necessarily filling the five-note tenor gap between the first and second Bb harmonics). Let me just say (with some authority and experience) as a practitioner of minor-third attachments for over sixty years, and having tested both the traditional perfect-fourth and also major-third tunings many times, the latter, e.g. Bb/Gb, is significantly 'better' (in the above respect) than the traditional perfect-fourth attachment; but the minor-third tuning, Bb/G, is overwhelmingly better than Bb/F—there is absolutely no comparison, not even close!

As is well known, with the Bb/F tuning, there are four handy attachment alternates in the low-tenor register (with the same sound-path length as their slide-alone counterparts in 6th and 7th positions) and three additional useful alternates (with longer sound-paths) along the F-attachment third harmonic. With Bb/Gb tuning, there are nine handy attachment alternates (with the same sound-path lengths as their slide-alone counterparts) and six additional useful alternates (with longer sound-paths). But with the minor-third tuning, Bb/G or C/A for tenor and Eb/C for alto, there are sixteen handy attachment alternates (with the same sound-path lengths as their slide-alone counterparts) and eight more useful alternates (with longer sound-path lengths). Even more importantly, the attachment alternate positions mimic slide-alone positions an octave or more higher. So any phrase that can be played with facile slide motion in the octave above the bass clef can also be played an octave or more lower using combinations of slide-alone positions and G-attachment alternates—with essentially the same nominal positions.

To see a very good demonstration, have a peek at the YouTube presentation by Denson-Paul Pollard (below). Denson-Paul is using the finger-trigger-actuated G-natural valve on his bass trombone (and occasionally using the thumb-trigger F attachment). But every excerpt he's demonstrating could be played on a single-trigger Bb/G tenor instrument, even the Eb2 in the Haydn example.



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Re: Looking for a complete bass trombone slide chart

Post by GGJazz »

Hello all.
Hello Sesquitone.

I guess that some bass trbn players , as maybe also the OP , think that with a double valve one can play the horn just between 1st and 4th open horn positions , so maybe a discussion about the use of the valve , and different tunings for it , could be interesting .

Well , I am not an amateur player , so I think I have a bit of some "authority" and "experience" too..
I have not sixty years of experience , just only 43 , being that I started playing as professional at 17 , and now I am 60 .

Before having a jazz career , I played for 8 years with some of the main Italian Symphony Orchestras , as Maggio Musicale of Florence , RAI of Milano ( the Italian National Broadcasting Company Orchestra) , Teatro Regio of Parma , etc etc.
As a jazz player , many National / International Festivals , concerts/recording with international guest ( Steve Lacy , Joe Lovano , Dave Liebman , Bobby Durham , etc) , teaching Jazz Trombone at the Conservatory of Bologna , etc etc.

So I guess I know what I am talking about . I just express my opinion ; I do not want you change your ideas. Different point of wiew , that all .

Anyway , I do NOT see worldwide so many pro tenor trbn players using the G , or even the Gb valve . Are you seeing this ?

I think that all the notes you can play "handly "with this kind of attachment , in all the ranges , etc, are just theoretical stuff , bacause we have to play the horn as OPEN as possible , even in fast technical passage .
We are not euphonium players ; we have to move the slide . That , of course , is my personal opinion.

I have also an independant bass trbn , a King 8B , with F /(#)Gb / D tuning .
To me , the useful notes with (#)Gb tuning ( apart the low and pedal ranges ) are Db , C , B , Bb , In the staff . Sometimes the Gb on fourth space . That 's all . With the F tuning you have C , B, Bb ,A ( sometimes Ab can be useful too) . With (#)G tuning you have D , Db , C, B , and the G on fourth space ( maybe you can add the Gb also , on T2 - b2 - position).

But , in my opinion , even on Thayer valves, the tone quality , expecially for the Gb / G on fourth space , is not even comparable with open horn , so you have to be careful , using them the less you can , if you do not want to loose the SLIDE trbn sound character.

I watched already the Denson Pollard video years ago .. He play marvellous , but I do not see the real point on this . I played the Creation too , just with open horn positions ; it is a bit difficult , but you have to do it , and you can do it pretty well ... So what ?

Here a video of Christian Jones playing the Creation with regular open horn positions , and , of course , some valved notes ( at 0:41 the renowed excerpt) :



Here , Gerry Pagano talking also about using the valve or the open horn , and playing the same excerpt with single Bb/ F bass trbn :


Regards
Giancarlo
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