Comparison of Conn 6H / Bach 16 to a King 3B?

[glenp]

Where I live there are very few if any, pro level trombones available to try (new or used). So I thought I’d ask for your impression of how a Conn 6H or Bach 16 (dual bore) compare to a King 3B (that’s what I have experience with).

I know the only way to know if I’ll like them is to play them. But there are at least a few semi-objective characteristics. Such as:

- responsiveness
- projection
- tone
- slotting and flexibility

[Burgerbob]

well, they're all different sizes.

You've got 7.5 and 8 inch bells, 3 different bore sizes, vastly different construction on all of them, so keep that in mind.

Broadly, though...

I find the 6H to be kind of like modern Shires- like a small legit instrument. That doesn't mean it can't shout and get bright, but they feel like a little 8H in some ways. Heavy slide stock. I had a magic '65 and a non-magic '67... traded the '65 like an idiot and the '67 was so not-good that I sold it a few years ago. To be honest, I don't really miss either one.

3B is a bit more flexible in sound, from really harsh to a nice colorful dark sound when played the right way. More room for air with the large bore and bell. This slide is lighter, though it does have oversleeves. I use a 3B/F day to day at work- it gets the job done in an easy, great sounding way.

Bach 16 (full disclosure, I have only owned LT16Ms, the single bore .509 with light slide) is a totally different monster. I will NOT say that the above horns don't have colorful sounds, but the Bach just has that extra spice and cream that keeps me coming back. I just used mine on the principal part to Brahms 3 and it was such a great feeling next to the section and trumpets on rotaries. In a jazz setting it can get nice and bright, but not losing that cream. Definitely the quirkiest of the 3 to play, intonation is exaggerated and the slots are a bit weird. I've heard that the dual bores are even a little worse in this regard.

[dukesboneman]

for my playing, I`ve owned 2 6H`s. Great horns but they never worked for me. I would practice at home and they felt amazing. Loved the sound and the feel. I`d get out on a gig and BOOM that 6H did not like to be pushed. It was that same problem I always had with the 88H. You try and fill the horn and push it, it rebels and won`t work.
I own a 16MG, an Lt8G and 2 12`s. The Bach`s have never been a problem with taking AIR. They`ll take as much as needed. I love the sound of the Bach`s.
The few 3B`s that I`ve played have always been good horns, compared to the 2B or 2B+ which I`ve both owned.

[Thrawn22]

As seems to be the norm i agree and disagree with some of what burgerbob says, and that's only because personal preference and experience.

The way he descibes a 3B is how how i would describe a 6H with bits of how he descibed playing a 6H. For me 6H is versatile in everyway. I can cheat playing legit on a 6H. I've used a 6H on everything from salsa to small classical groups to all tenor chairs in a bigband. But each 6H I've played has been different. I haven't had any dogs but have had ones I've liked more than others. I'm really digging the early 60's one i have. Great colorful sound in all dynamics, easy to play and blends great.

Never played a 16 but guys i know that have them love them compared to 12s and vice versa.

Every King I've played has been good, but not as great as my Conns. I personally don't see the point of a 3BF but that's me.
The 3Bs ive had were free blowing but hard for me to slot. If i prehaps started on Kings I'd probably have more comfort with them. But Kings are aplenty so you won't have problems finding 9ne.

[Finetales]

I have a 3B and a 3BF. They can do pretty much anything, and I use them as such.

I once borrowed a friend's 6H to play a show with a funk band at a club and I have been on the lookout for my own 6H ever since. That thing absolutely ripped! Peeled paint off the walls with the perfect characteristic sound, and made it dead easy to do so in every register. It was cakewalk easy to play. This Kenton and Conn head felt right at home, and I would sure use my 3Bs less often if I had one. I can't think of an instrument I'd rather play lead in a big band with, except maybe that Williams 6 I tried at DJ's.

I came into this thread thinking that if you love the 3B, you're gonna love the 6H (and vice versa), but judging by the other posts that seems to be far from a universal truth!

[Thrawn22]

I came into this thread thinking that if you love the 3B, you're gonna love the 6H (and vice versa), but judging by the other posts that seems to be far from a universal truth!

I got a 3BF concert and removed the valve. I got it as a back up to my 6H when i only had the one. It worked for when i needed it, but it never played like my 6H.

[imsevimse]

I own three Conn 6h from different periods (30ies, 50ies and 90ies). They are all different. The oldest is silver plated and has a 7,5 " bell and comes with a very heavy slide. It has a more velvety sound than expected from a Conn. It's a very special one. The two others have 8" bells and have more clear and distinct sound. All three are good 6h's that work in big band settings.

I have three King 3b. One of them is a silver sonic and one has an f-att. Kings need to be played correctly just as Burgerbob says or else they can sound 'blatty', except the Silversonic because of that heavy Sterling silver bell. The Kings can be used in any music, from harsh dixieland to noble classical chamber music. It depends A LOT on you if it will be a sweet sonorous trombone or a harsh and edgy trombone. I played a lot of first trombone in big bands on a King 3b with a Benge 12C mouthpiece in the late 80ies early 90ies and liked it very much.

I don't own a Bach 16 but know players here who use them. The Bach 16 holds together in fortissimo without beeing harsh as well as they can be very sweet ballade horns. I have tested a Bach 16 and liked it very much.

Its difficult to choose from these three models because they are very different in character. It depends on what you want. If you want a clear, crisp and (when you need it) edgy sound then a King 3b would be my choice. If you are going to play a sweet ballade I would choose the Conn 6h or the Bach 16 but of course the King can do that too, just a bit brighter. If you want to use a trombone for dixieland or blues I would choose a King 3b, and also if you need to cover first trombone in an Windorchestra. Small jazz combos you could use any of them but too me slotting is easier done on a Conn 6h or a Bach 16.

I think any good player can make use of all these three trombones anywhere he wants. All three are examples of very good designs that many professional trombone players have used a lot.

Generally King and Conn are more alike when I switch between them. To switch to a Bach needs a little more time to find where positions are because they are more different compared to the others. I also think Bachs in general plays a bit darker compared to King and Conns. King is what gives me most crisp in my articulations and most edge in the sound. If I would choose a horn to play jazz solos in a jazz combo or as 2nd part in a big band I would choose a Conn (preffered soundwise) or a Bach. Slotting is a bit better/faster/easier on them compared to Kings.

If I list them in order from brightest to darkest my list would be: King, Conn, Bach.

This is how I think of these three brands.

/Tom

[Vegasbound]

Having owned an Ellie 6h, a MT Vernon 16 and a 3b I would take the 3b every time,others will prefer the Bach or the 6h

You own a decent stable of pro horns, including the van lier .500 bore and a 3b so your talking about replacing one? Or adding to your large Bach’s??

[hyperbolica]

I like all of these models. The 6h are probably my favorite, just as a Conn guy. I love the 6h vibe. 3b is a close 2nd. It's slightly more open, and has a malleable pallette. Bach 16m is one that I've wanted to love, but just couldn't decide how to approach it. The last one I had I sold to a college professor of trombone who liked it.

My current small bores are the Olds Recording, which I think is very undervalued, and a 48h, which I used to love until the Recording came along. The Recording has a great dark and smoky sound, but still gets the quick response of a small bore. In comparison to that, the 48h feels bright and thin. Recording for solos and general playing, and 48h for big band lead parts.

[Matt K]

I think a better comparison would be a 6H, Bach 12, and King 2b+ because they're all the same bore size (and, honestly, Bach 12 is pretty similar to a Bach 16 and likewise a 2b+ to a 3b anyway). Otherwise, you're really introducing some variables that are hard to compare like the fact that the 16 is a .495/.509 dual bore. Yet even then, you have bell size differences between the three models I indicated. The Bach bells are one-piece, soldered bell beads. The Conns are 2-piece with unsoldered bell beads, and the Kings are 2-piece with soldered bell beads. As noted elsewhere here, the "pro" Kings have nickel slides and yellow crooks. Kings often have 2-piece leadpipes as well vs. the one piece of the Conn & Bach.

Each of the instruments does things to balance out attributes. Like a King 3B has an 8" bell and the 16M has a 7.5" bell, so you'd probably assume that the Bach is brighter when comparing those two, but those bells are also one-piece and typically not as bright in my experience.

[Thrawn22]

Something else to point out about these horns design wise is that each use a different style slide crook. Thr King is pretty round while the Bach is squared. The Conn crook is right on the middle, not too round but not too square. It's the trombone goldilocks chose.

[glenp]

You own a decent stable of pro horns, including the van lier .500 bore and a 3b so your talking about replacing one? Or adding to your large Bach’s??

This is purely additive. I love both the King 3B and the BVL 500. But they’re at opposite ends of the spectrum. The 3B is a powerful horn and I like the feedback I get on it in big bands. The BVL is sweet, smooth, lighter and therefore more responsive. I like it for solo work or small groups. I haven’t played it mic’d in a combo but I think it would do really well.

There’s a big gap between the two. I’m hoping for something that’s sweeter than the 3B but with more core than the BVL. And I was thinking either a Conn 6H or the Bach 16 would fill that spot. Sounds like both might work pretty well; but from what everyone has shared I think I’m leaning toward the 6H.

[glenp]

I think a better comparison would be a 6H, Bach 12, and King 2b+ because they're all the same bore size

Yes, of course, you’re absolutely right that those instruments are more similar. But I haven’t played any of them, which is why I wanted to compare to a 3B, because I play one regularly, and want to know how they differ from the 3B.

[HermanGerman]

You own a decent stable of pro horns, including the van lier .500 bore and a 3b so your talking about replacing one? Or adding to your large Bach’s??

There’s a big gap between the two. I’m hoping for something that’s sweeter than the 3B but with more core than the BVL.

I know what you mean. Just try a XO 1634!! Sweet sound with King core.

[JRmusic]

I owned a Silversonic 3BF in the early 70s, and have kicked myself profusely for selling it. After not playing much trombone since the late 80s, I picked it up again about a year ago. I dream of getting another silversonic 3B, but I’m currently playing my beautiful old 48H Connstellation, which is a great horn. Not sure I’d see a huge difference between the two. I do own a brass 3B bell, which I’ve played with a nice 606 slide. It’s fine too, but brighter than my 48H, which isn’t really what I’m looking for. I dig the darker tone. I have a feeling I should quit thinking about the silver 3B and just enjoy my Conn.

[hyperbolica]

If I can add to my previous comment, I recently got a 3bf. Even though its a bigger bore than the 6h, I think the 3bf gets a brighter sound. I like the 6h vibe/feel better but I wind up using the 3bf more because it fits my quintet better. I prefer just about any horn I have to the 3bf, but none of them fit with the other instruments the way the 3bf does. Plus, nothing beats an F attachment on a small bore horn.

[JRmusic]

If I can add to my previous comment, I recently got a 3bf. Even though its a bigger bore than the 6h, I think the 3bf gets a brighter sound. I like the 6h vibe/feel better but I wind up using the 3bf more because it fits my quintet better. I prefer just about any horn I have to the 3bf, but none of them fit with the other instruments the way the 3bf does. Plus, nothing beats an F attachment on a small bore horn.

I also have a Bach Omega small bore tenor bone (like a TB200) with an F attachment, but I find the trigger section to be a bit stuffy. I wonder how it would compare to the trigger on a 3B.There are definitely times I’d like to pull the trigger : ). Are all small bore tenor F attachments stuffy?

[Matt K]

King small bore rotors are weirdly good.

[RJMason]

Based on the idea of “filling the gap” between the 3B and the BVL I think a Bach would do the trick if you could find one you really enjoy. However, they are so inconsistent you (and your wallet) are probably better off looking for a 6H.

I played a 3B for 10 years, then a 6H for five. Now I am on a Bach 12/8, but I had to find the right one for me (which took 15 years). I love the 6H design and concept. But ultimately I love the sound of Bach bells more than anything else. Still, it’s hard to beat the added versatility of a nice 6H. Will probably get another at some point. If you are looking for a more compact sound with core and enjoy your 3B, you may also consider a King 2B liberty to round out your small bore stable to include a sub .500 horn.

[Posaunus]

Should a Conn 48H Connstellation (similar to a Conn 6H but "different") also be put into this mix?

[hyperbolica]

. Are all small bore tenor F attachments stuffy?

Stuffy is a frame of mind. I don't know about all 3bfs, but mine plays evenly between the two sides.

Should a Conn 48H Connstellation (similar to a Conn 6H but "different") also be put into this mix?

.

48h is more direct than 6h, and much darker than 3b. There's no F options with 48h. 48h seems to take a range of mouthpieces which change the personality slightly. 3b seems to like a narrower range of mouthpieces. 48h is probably the best marching trombone ever. 6h is more sophisticated and the 3b is just kind of raw, and requires you to provide the control.

[Posaunus]

Should a Conn 48H Connstellation (similar to a Conn 6H but "different") also be put into this mix?

48h is more direct than 6h, and much darker than 3b. There's no F options with 48h. 48h seems to take a range of mouthpieces which change the personality slightly. 3b seems to like a narrower range of mouthpieces. 48h is probably the best marching trombone ever. 6h is more sophisticated and the 3b is just kind of raw, and requires you to provide the control.

Thanks, Matt, for your point of view.

[Finetales]

Are all small bore tenor F attachments stuffy?

King 3B valves (especially the later ones which are larger) have no right to be as good in the low register as they are. The ease that valve offers is why a 2-valve 3B is so enticing, because it can actually fill up the sound down there.

3b seems to like a narrower range of mouthpieces.

Interesting. The prevailing opinion I've seen on here is that 3Bs will work with pretty much anything, and that has certainly been my experience.

[JRmusic]

I played my 48H and my 3B (no trigger on either) last night for over an hour, went back and forth between the two, listened, recorded them, listened again, and made mental notes. I used the same 6 1/2 AL on both. My takeaway is that THEY BOTH SOUND GREAT, and very similar. The 48H Connstellation is slightly darker, mellower- they respond differently when pushed. But they both play very well, they’re easy to handle, and I dig both sounds. I’m very thankful to own TWO nice jazz bones- wouldn’t go wrong on a gig with either one. I’ve never owned a 6H, but I’d like to. I’m on the lookout for one

[Posaunus]

I played my 48H and my 3B (no trigger on either) last night for over an hour, went back and forth between the two, listened, recorded them, listened again, and made mental notes. I used the same 6 1/2 AL on both. My takeaway is that THEY BOTH SOUND GREAT, and very similar. The 48H Connstellation is slightly darker, mellower- they respond differently when pushed. But they both play very well, they’re easy to handle, and I dig both sounds. I’m very thankful to own TWO nice jazz bones- wouldn’t go wrong on a gig with either one. I’ve never owned a 6H, but I’d like to. I’m on the lookout for one

Thanks for this report. Makes me feel better about my Conns. I still miss the King 3BSS that I played until a few years ago. These are all fine trombones! And they all seem to tolerate a range of mouthpieces.

[hyperbolica]

3b seems to like a narrower range of mouthpieces

Interesting. The prevailing opinion I've seen on here is that 3Bs will work with pretty much anything, and that has certainly been my experience.

Might just be my horn, there is some minor but specific damage. I've had trouble dialing in some upper range notes (G/Ab) without a smaller piece. I feel on the edge of splitting notes with larger pieces. 3b seems to play better with trumpets. .

[hyperbolica]

3b seems to like a narrower range of mouthpieces.

Interesting. The prevailing opinion I've seen on here is that 3Bs will work with pretty much anything, and that has certainly been my experience.

This seemed interesting to me, so I looked into it a little further. On my 3b, not sure about 3bs in general, but the entire 8th partial (Bb) feels like crap. That includes the Ab in 3rd. So I can play the Bb in #3, but if that entire partial is mainly unusable, I've got to resort to #1 (?!?!?) or #5 for an alternate for the Ab. If I play Bb in 1st and then in 3, there's a big difference in stability, clarity and consistency, with the 3rd position being noticeably better.

I was having problems centering Ab, so I tried different mouthpieces on it. So I was judging the mouthpiece acceptance of this horn on the troublesome 8th partial.

More directly on topic, I've got several horns lined up for direct comparison -
3Bf
48h
Getzen 1050
Getzen 3508r (arrives tomorrow)
Olds Recording
32h (wide slide modification)
8h '58 (w/sl2525 slide)
79h

Sometimes a touch of GAS is helpful in certain situations.

First I have to say that being able to play these horns all back to back is a huge advantage. If there were a month or a day or an hour between horns, you wouldn't get the same comparison. Plus, any one of these instruments in isolation would be perfectly adequate for just about anything. The differences are sometimes very subtle. And it's kind of like deciding which chocolate ice cream you like best - no matter how many times you taste them, each has properties that you just can't say anything bad about. With that in mind, none of these is a bad horn. On any given day, a different one might be my favorite.

3Bf is just the practical winner out of these (aside from the 8th partial issue and a slide that needs some work in my case) - it's got the sound and flexibility. I want to hate the 3b for some reason, but I can't. It's great, even the borked one I have, and it's all I use in quintet.

Next is 48h. This horn is just more direct, with more core, small bore but still a big fat and dark sound, and will take larger mouthpieces. This is Conn with a bit of Bach. Very different from the 3B, but it would be my choice for 2 things: marching band and any lead trombone situation.

32h. I took a 32h that had been ridden hard (bell engraving nearly buffed off), and put a Yamaha 356 slide crook on it to "fix" the narrow slide. It is now a killer ballad horn (how many of these does a guy need?) It has that "it" Conn sound. The wider crook adds a little weight to the sound, but makes the slide so much easier to deal with. Doesn't really compare to the 3b overall (which is hard to understand until you play the 3b), but for ballads or 2nd parts, or a lot of other stuff that doesn't require a trigger, this 32h is a beautiful option.

Olds Recording. This is a great ballad horn. The top slide is small, so it can still get tight articulations, but it's heavy and the red bell darkens it a lot. With a counterweight on the back, this is the MOST comfortable horn to hold. But it's heavy. It doesn't compete with the 3b for overall playing. For a while I was trying to find a small bore equivalent to 8h, and this was a contender.

8h. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I used to be one of those guys who used 547 for everything. I grew up on a beautiful Elkhart 88h, but it took me a while to discover there are other things in life than 547. Put an sl2525 on an 8h, and you've got one of the nicest medium bores available. Singing high range, very open, free feel. Not an air hog. Orchestral or concert band horn all the way.

My 79h is darker than my 88h, but if you have a 78h, those are a different story. The 78h is the one horn that plays brighter than you'd expect it to, especially when pushed. Sometimes it's too bright. The 79h is just too dark for somethings (when compared directly against bright horns like the 3b).

Getzen 1050. As much as I want to love this horn, it's tough. The sound is slightly covered compared to everything else. It is a bit lighter than other bones, and mine has a great slide. Other horns are better at just about any use you might name. It's not a bad horn at all, it's just fractionally less than other horns on this list.

========================
I've owned other small bores in the past:

6h - Really the thing we all compare all small bores against.
24h - Even better than the 6h for lead bone, high range stuff. These are amazing, and often amazingly cheap.
Olds Super - too small, too heavy, ick.
Bach 6 NY - quintessential dixieland trombone. Play MUCH bigger than you think they should, and go cheap.
16m - local trombone professor bought it and uses it for all his small bore stuff
Shires MD+ - this is probably the one horn I wish I had kept - Nicest Shires I've ever owned, really nice overall instrument, but very different sound from the 3b
Yamaha 891z - maybe the best Yamaha I've played, but not as nice as the Shires MD+
Selmer Bolero - I think I'm prejudiced against this horn because it smelled bad. Nice sound, but heavy and a bit dead feeling. Not like 3b at all.
Wessex Urbie copy - To me, this horn played completely neutral - it seemed to be completely even everywhere with no weird quirks, kind of the perfect trombone. Dollar for Dollar, this has probably been one of the best trombones I've ever owned. Shouldn't have sold it. Only got $250 for it.

[ithinknot]

This seemed interesting to me, so I looked into it a little further. On my 3b, not sure about 3bs in general, but the entire 8th partial (Bb) feels like crap.

Thanks for the writeup - all interesting.

When you mention mouthpiece size, are you just trying out different DE depths?

Your particular 3B sounds maybe not great... but they do seem to have issues in that area to some degree. Much gets made of the "small Bachs don't have a Bb in 3rd" thing, but I think the basic problem is as pronounced if not more so on Kings, just transposed by a tone.

My guess is that there's an inherent quirk in trombone-shaped physics around that length of slide extension, and then taper chicanery can influence exactly where it shows up pitch-wise... on Bachs, where the 6th, 7th partials etc have been quite significantly repositioned it centers on Bb in 3rd, and on 3Bs with the sharp 6th partial and the others more or less left to run free, it's around Ab. In both cases, horns range between having barely a hint of the issue, and the occasional dog where it's a real Problem... though even the worse Bachs have better vertical intonation than any 3B, so there's that.

Have you tried a 3BSS? Some of them feel "mainly just heavy" and only really make sense when pushed hard, but some don't, and those are kinda magic. I'd love to try a good 48H some time. Like the 3BSS, it seems to have a reputation as a bit of a bruiser, the choice of obnoxious people in earplug genres, but it manages sweet pretty well too... Teddy Roderman, for example.

[Finetales]

This seemed interesting to me, so I looked into it a little further. On my 3b, not sure about 3bs in general, but the entire 8th partial (Bb) feels like crap. That includes the Ab in 3rd. So I can play the Bb in #3, but if that entire partial is mainly unusable, I've got to resort to #1 (?!?!?) or #5 for an alternate for the Ab. If I play Bb in 1st and then in 3, there's a big difference in stability, clarity and consistency, with the 3rd position being noticeably better.

That definitely seems like there is something wrong with the horn, maybe the leadpipe. I've played a whole bunch of 3Bs and 3BFs and none had any issues in the 8th partial. The normal 3B quirk up there is that the 9th partial C is pretty sharp so you have to play it a decent way off the bumpers, but the 8th partial usually locks just fine.

[ithinknot]

Should really have asked above... any tuning slide dents? I picked up a beater 3B that had a couple classic back bow flat spots and the 8th and 9th partial slotting really sucked until they were removed (weirdly, it seemed fine above that point). They were pretty shallow dents too, and the horn played very well afterwards, so clearly it doesn't take much.

I've come across Kings with "the Ab feeling", but Bb in 1st shouldn't feel weird.

[Burgerbob]

Yup, all my 3Bs have been fine up there.

I just played my 3B/F at work for a week straight... yup, still love it.

I also played the Butler all-carbon small bore straight horn, then a Yamaha 891Z, then a brand new King 3B at ITF- the 3B was far and away the best of the 3.

[ithinknot]

I also played the Butler all-carbon small bore straight horn, then a Yamaha 891Z, then a brand new King 3B at ITF- the 3B was far and away the best of the 3.

What did you think of the Butler, just out of interest? The Yamaha seems easy but there's something about the sound that I quite specifically dislike.

[Burgerbob]

What did you think of the Butler, just out of interest? The Yamaha seems easy but there's something about the sound that I quite specifically dislike.

The Butler was really, really bad. Pbone level. Didn't center anything at all.

Strangely enough, the carbon C12 bass trombone was very, very good.

[ithinknot]

The Butler was really, really bad. Pbone level. Didn't center anything at all.

Fair enough. Haven't liked what I heard from videos, but people seem keen, so, as you say,

[muschem]

The Butler was really, really bad. Pbone level. Didn't center anything at all.

Strangely enough, the carbon C12 bass trombone was very, very good.

I wonder which leadpipe was in the small bore Butler you tried? Mine shipped with what I believe is an Edwards #3, and tbh, I had the same initial impression... didn't seem to center anything particularly well. A tighter pipe really made a dramatic difference on that horn... more than I would have expected compared to experiences on others. The other factor, for me, is that the feedback behind the bell on carbon horns is fairly different (I want to say "reduced", but that might not be the right way to characterize it... just "different") vs. metal horns. I find the sound out the front of the bell is not nearly as different as the sound behind the bell would seem to indicate. What sounds dull and uncentered behind the bell, I usually find to sound just fine in my recordings.

I'm still new to bass, so I don't have nearly as much to compare to, but for me - completely agree on the C12: of the three Butler horns I have (JJ, C8/C10, and C12) it plays the best.

[hyperbolica]

When you mention mouthpiece size, are you just trying out different DE depths?

Mostly, yes. I do have a couple other old mouthpieces sitting around, but I've been scaling through c-f DE cups with various shanks. It seemed to center best on D3.

Your particular 3B sounds maybe not great... but they do seem to have issues in that area to some degree. Much gets made of the "small Bachs don't have a Bb in 3rd" thing, but I think the basic problem is as pronounced if not more so on Kings, just transposed by a tone.

There's a possibility that the horn is to fault. The guy I got it from was a little sketchy, and I did get a bargain, kind of anticipating some possible work. There is some valve knuckle damage, and the bell seems to be too close to the slide. And the slide is not great. I can't see any leadpipe damage, maybe I just bite the bullet and have it removed when I have other work done on it. It's in the rotation for a trip to the shop. I have another valve I might put on it, and I the slide can certainly be improved.

Have you tried a 3BSS? Some of them feel "mainly just heavy" and only really make sense when pushed hard, but some don't, and those are kinda magic. I'd love to try a good 48H some time. Like the 3BSS, it seems to have a reputation as a bit of a bruiser, the choice of obnoxious people in earplug genres, but it manages sweet pretty well too... Teddy Roderman, for example.

I had a straight 3bss for a brief time, and I really did love its sound, although I never went looking for problems with it. It was a screw bell, so on top of the SS weight, there was the screw joint, so it was WAY front heavy. I'm getting weight conscious as I get older, so I had to pass that horn on down the line. Fantastic sound, but I just couldn't deal with the weight.

The 48h is a great horn. They go in and out of style. Right now is a bit of a lull, so you might get a decent price on one. A couple of years ago you couldn't get one for less than $1500. You can really make some noise with a 48h, and it's slightly heavier than say a nice 6h, but it can also be a sensitive horn if you play it that way. The Recording also plays everything up half volume marking with the same air. There are a lot of nice vintage horns out there.

[Matt K]

My 607 franken project completed a few weeks ago and I've been playing with it. I'll have to post a more thorough review somewhere. But so far I love it. It took awhile to get used to playing something that small again, and it doesn't help it was super hot here where I was playing it so I was crazy sharp at first. But as soon as I got to room temperature and spent a few days with some drones it plays great. Narrow slide was bugging me too but I've gotten used to that for the most part.

606/607 slide (500/525) bore with a 32H drawn yellow Brassark replica & M&K Drawing Olds Recording .515" nickel crook.

607 Valve + Tuning slide

Getzen 3508Y bell (7 3/4" bell, medium weight, soldered bell bead).

Tech had to cut the bell down an inch or so, but it's now the same length as the original 607 bell. As close to golilocks on a smallish bore that I've gotten. Dialing in the leadpipe with a buddy here as soon asI get over whatever illness my kid gave to me last week Maybe even post a recording.

[OompaLoompia]

Interesting. The prevailing opinion I've seen on here is that 3Bs will work with pretty much anything, and that has certainly been my experience.

This seemed interesting to me, so I looked into it a little further. On my 3b, not sure about 3bs in general, but the entire 8th partial (Bb) feels like crap. That includes the Ab in 3rd. So I can play the Bb in #3, but if that entire partial is mainly unusable, I've got to resort to #1 (?!?!?) or #5 for an alternate for the Ab. If I play Bb in 1st and then in 3, there's a big difference in stability, clarity and consistency, with the 3rd position being noticeably better.

I was having problems centering Ab, so I tried different mouthpieces on it. So I was judging the mouthpiece acceptance of this horn on the troublesome 8th partial.

More directly on topic, I've got several horns lined up for direct comparison -
3Bf
48h
Getzen 1050
Getzen 3508r (arrives tomorrow)
Olds Recording
32h (wide slide modification)
8h '58 (w/sl2525 slide)
79h

Sometimes a touch of GAS is helpful in certain situations.

First I have to say that being able to play these horns all back to back is a huge advantage. If there were a month or a day or an hour between horns, you wouldn't get the same comparison. Plus, any one of these instruments in isolation would be perfectly adequate for just about anything. The differences are sometimes very subtle. And it's kind of like deciding which chocolate ice cream you like best - no matter how many times you taste them, each has properties that you just can't say anything bad about. With that in mind, none of these is a bad horn. On any given day, a different one might be my favorite.

3Bf is just the practical winner out of these (aside from the 8th partial issue and a slide that needs some work in my case) - it's got the sound and flexibility. I want to hate the 3b for some reason, but I can't. It's great, even the borked one I have, and it's all I use in quintet.

Next is 48h. This horn is just more direct, with more core, small bore but still a big fat and dark sound, and will take larger mouthpieces. This is Conn with a bit of Bach. Very different from the 3B, but it would be my choice for 2 things: marching band and any lead trombone situation.

32h. I took a 32h that had been ridden hard (bell engraving nearly buffed off), and put a Yamaha 356 slide crook on it to "fix" the narrow slide. It is now a killer ballad horn (how many of these does a guy need?) It has that "it" Conn sound. The wider crook adds a little weight to the sound, but makes the slide so much easier to deal with. Doesn't really compare to the 3b overall (which is hard to understand until you play the 3b), but for ballads or 2nd parts, or a lot of other stuff that doesn't require a trigger, this 32h is a beautiful option.

Olds Recording. This is a great ballad horn. The top slide is small, so it can still get tight articulations, but it's heavy and the red bell darkens it a lot. With a counterweight on the back, this is the MOST comfortable horn to hold. But it's heavy. It doesn't compete with the 3b for overall playing. For a while I was trying to find a small bore equivalent to 8h, and this was a contender.

8h. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I used to be one of those guys who used 547 for everything. I grew up on a beautiful Elkhart 88h, but it took me a while to discover there are other things in life than 547. Put an sl2525 on an 8h, and you've got one of the nicest medium bores available. Singing high range, very open, free feel. Not an air hog. Orchestral or concert band horn all the way.

My 79h is darker than my 88h, but if you have a 78h, those are a different story. The 78h is the one horn that plays brighter than you'd expect it to, especially when pushed. Sometimes it's too bright. The 79h is just too dark for somethings (when compared directly against bright horns like the 3b).

Getzen 1050. As much as I want to love this horn, it's tough. The sound is slightly covered compared to everything else. It is a bit lighter than other bones, and mine has a great slide. Other horns are better at just about any use you might name. It's not a bad horn at all, it's just fractionally less than other horns on this list.

========================
I've owned other small bores in the past:

6h - Really the thing we all compare all small bores against.
24h - Even better than the 6h for lead bone, high range stuff. These are amazing, and often amazingly cheap.
Olds Super - too small, too heavy, ick.
Bach 6 NY - quintessential dixieland trombone. Play MUCH bigger than you think they should, and go cheap.
16m - local trombone professor bought it and uses it for all his small bore stuff
Shires MD+ - this is probably the one horn I wish I had kept - Nicest Shires I've ever owned, really nice overall instrument, but very different sound from the 3b
Yamaha 891z - maybe the best Yamaha I've played, but not as nice as the Shires MD+
Selmer Bolero - I think I'm prejudiced against this horn because it smelled bad. Nice sound, but heavy and a bit dead feeling. Not like 3b at all.

I’m definitely interested in a comparison between the 3508R I sent you and your Olds Recording. I wonder if the red brass bell + dual bore specs shared by both (of course the bore sizes are different though) will yield any similarities. Should be interesting with the three leadpipe options as well.

[OompaLoompia]

This seemed interesting to me, so I looked into it a little further. On my 3b, not sure about 3bs in general, but the entire 8th partial (Bb) feels like crap.

Thanks for the writeup - all interesting.

When you mention mouthpiece size, are you just trying out different DE depths?

Your particular 3B sounds maybe not great... but they do seem to have issues in that area to some degree. Much gets made of the "small Bachs don't have a Bb in 3rd" thing, but I think the basic problem is as pronounced if not more so on Kings, just transposed by a tone.

My guess is that there's an inherent quirk in trombone-shaped physics around that length of slide extension, and then taper chicanery can influence exactly where it shows up pitch-wise... on Bachs, where the 6th, 7th partials etc have been quite significantly repositioned it centers on Bb in 3rd, and on 3Bs with the sharp 6th partial and the others more or less left to run free, it's around Ab. In both cases, horns range between having barely a hint of the issue, and the occasional dog where it's a real Problem... though even the worse Bachs have better vertical intonation than any 3B, so there's that.

Have you tried a 3BSS? Some of them feel "mainly just heavy" and only really make sense when pushed hard, but some don't, and those are kinda magic. I'd love to try a good 48H some time. Like the 3BSS, it seems to have a reputation as a bit of a bruiser, the choice of obnoxious people in earplug genres, but it manages sweet pretty well too... Teddy Roderman, for example.

In regard to the 3BSS, the one example I tried was way too hard for me to play as a small bore. Although maybe that’s more of a me issue! I think the .508 bore combined with the heavy sterling silver bell required a ton of energy to play, in some ways feeling like a medium, even large bore. Amazing sound when paired with a big blow, but just not for me.

HOWEVER, I did finally just snag my dream horn, a 1949 King 2B Silvertone (Same as a 2B Silversonic but before the Sears lawsuit), and it’s a way, way better fit for me than the 3BSS. Still takes more air to play and it’s less responsive compared to my 2B Liberty, but it’s considerably less work and more responsive than the 3BSS I demoed. Not only that, but it also feels considerably more open than any 2B I have played in the past. My complaints about 2B stuffiness are now nonexistent!

Not only was I fortunate to purchase it in amazing condition at a good price (thanks Ebay!) but the tone is absolutely velvety, creamy, and gorgeous, with a consistent and strong core at all volumes, AND it’s not too hard for me to play. My wife immediately noticed the difference in timbre between the Silvertone, my 3BF, and the 3508R that hyperbolica will be receiving tomorrow.
It’s now the clear favorite according to my wife. As an added bonus, the counterweight and Neotech grip make it extremely easy to hold as well.

I am still keeping my 3BF since it’s snappier, it can sizzle if needed, and is so versatile. I’m thinking about/will probably be selling my other 2B (pretty much a beater I would sell for cheap), and buying a beater Conn 6H as I have never gotten to try one, and I want to see what all the hype is about (although I hear even Conn 6Hs can be vastly different from each other!)

[hyperbolica]

Ok, I got the Getzen 3508r in today, and have had some time to fiddle with it and the leadpipes.

First of all, what a difference a good slide makes. Wow. Right out of the box. Thanks, @Oompa Loompia! I seriously don't even want to pick up the 3B with a bad slide. Both my 3508r and the 1050 have great slides. I played the 1050 with the quartet today in a situation where I was playing high harmony and had to hold back. It was perfect there. It's all about context.

Anyway, the 3508r is the kind of horn I just don't want to put down. It reminds me of the Wessex Urbie copy most. Very neutral and steerable horn. You can do flips and trills easily, and the horn kind of invites you to do it - every move you make is easy on this horn. Clear and strong top F. Responds at very low sound levels, so you can be very subtle with it. It's brighter than the 48h for sure. It doesn't really compare to the Recording. The 3508r has a very clear tone, where the Recording is kind of covered. In fact, the 3B sounds very covered up next to it.

3508 comes with 3 leadpipes. I couldn't read the markings, but I didn't really need to. The #2 pipe was in it, and that is clearly the right choice for this horn. Really nice! And then #1 was too tight - borderline unplayable for me. I'd certainly need to spend some time on it and practice. Pipe #3 just adds another dimension to the horn. It's like a medium bore horn fatness to the sound with the tight articulations of a 500 bore. With the #2 pipe I was using my DE D3 combo, but with the #3 pipe, it worked great with a F4, and maybe even a G4. You could take this to a trombone choir in a legit setting and play the #3 pipe with the F4 mouthpiece, and feel right at home in with 525 and 547 bore instruments.

Just as a warning, I always gush about new-to-me horns. But this is one that is just such a joy to pick up (it's light and balanced) and its just easy to move around on. If there's any criticism at all, in the brief time that I've been playing it, there might be a little extra resistance in the 6th partial (F). But maybe after I've played it a few hours and figured out the mouthpiece and leadpipe situation better, maybe that goes away. The high register itself it nice, but there might be a little wall you have to hop over between the high and medium ranges. It's tiny. I wouldn't mention it aside from the bit with the 3b and the 8th partial.

If I had to be stuck with only one of these horns, which would it be? Probably the 48h or the 3508r. The 48h just has a more grown up, legit kind of sound to it, but the 3508r is flexible enough with the #3 pipe to include that, and a fair bit lighter. The utility of the valve on the 3B would be nice if it had a great slide and the partials were all even. It's nice to have choices.

I have to say that I've underestimated Getzens. The 1050 and the 3508r I've added recently are both really nice instruments. I'm probably judging against a previous generation of Getzens.

In order in the picture left to right are 48h, 32h, 1050, Recording, 3508r, 3bf (79h and 8h w/525 are missing).

1000.jpg

[OompaLoompia]

I am so glad you like it! And yep, I had the slide realigned to be perfect before I sent it to you. I’ve also had a 1050 before as well. The first thing I noticed with both horns was how nice the slide was out of the box.

It’s interesting to me that based on your description, your 3B has more in common with the Recording than the 3508R does, although not surprising.

Also an interesting comparison the Wessex PB4501 in terms of response, weight, and ease of use. Does that also track with the Martin Urbie Green TR4501 that the Wessex is based on?

I’m looking to replace my 2B Liberty with another cheap all rounder option. I thought about a 48H but based on what you said about its dark sound quality, I think my Silvertone covers that.

Right now I’m between selecting a Conn 6H and a Martin Urbie Green.

[hyperbolica]

6h and a Martin Urbie - you can't really go wrong. I've never played the original Martin Urbie. 6h is like a comfortable old shoe. You can tell the 6h and 48h are related, but the 48h is a little uptight and the 6h is more laid back.

Edit:
I checked it, and the #3 pipe definitely works with a DE G4 mouthpiece. Big fat sound, sweet high range. The more I play this thing, the better i like it. Does Getzen offer other non-547 pro line instruments?

[OompaLoompia]

6h and a Martin Urbie - you can't really go wrong. I've never played the original Martin Urbie. 6h is like a comfortable old shoe. You can tell the 6h and 48h are related, but the 48h is a little uptight and the 6h is more laid back.

Edit:
I checked it, and the #3 pipe definitely works with a DE G4 mouthpiece. Big fat sound, sweet high range. The more I play this thing, the better i like it. Does Getzen offer other non-547 pro line instruments?

The 1050 and 3508(R/Y) are it. After that, their models jump over to Edwards. All the custom pro Getzens are actually Edwards models in “stock” configuration, which I believe are all the most popular Edwards components configured to be non-modular. I’ve have both the R and Y, and I preferred the R. They also offer the 725, which is an intermediate .525/.547 dual bore. I have one as well that I’m looking to sell if you’re interested in trying it. Of course there are the student horns as well.

[Matt K]

Id honestly consider anything “intermediate” and up “professional” level from the Getzen line up. Iirc they even mention the bells being just standard bells from the Edwards lineup even as far down as the Capri series

[hyperbolica]

On the Getzen site, the 1036 (a 525 bore) is listed as discontinued, just like the 1050. Has anyone played one of these? I've never heard of it before, and a casual swing through eBay yields nothing.

https://www.getzen.com/trombones/eterna-series/1036f/

[ithinknot]

Also an interesting comparison the Wessex PB4501 in terms of response, weight, and ease of use. Does that also track with the Martin Urbie Green TR4501 that the Wessex is based on?

6h and a Martin Urbie - you can't really go wrong. I've never played the original Martin Urbie.

I have both, for some reason ...the Wessex has a red bell and is heavier (slide also) than the real Urbie. Based on hyperbolica's comments I'd guess that he might actually prefer the Wessex (or a Holton TR100)... it gets a bit of that Recording-style warmth and weight without sounding covered. The Martin has a more direct/unfiltered thing going on... still "darker" than a King, somewhere between the "raw yellow" 6H vibe and the 2B's croony smoothness. If that means anything to anyone else

The Martin is unbelievably in-tune and even, more so than some modern boutique stuff. It's worth knowing, though, that it (or at least mine) is really fussy about mouthpiece volume. With a 12C or similar, which I really can't play for any serious length of time, it responds beautifully everywhere, easy all the way up.

The problem for me is that with larger DE stuff, the 8th partial and above is suddenly much tighter than the rest of the horn, not incrementally, and not inconsistently... just a categorical difference one side or the other. LT series feels better than XT, but still not nearly as well as the thing responds with a classic small piece. For ages I thought maybe the horn just wasn't great, and then it occurred to me to try the small stuff just for science... and then the horn is pretty fabulous. Makes sense - the two people known for playing them (Urbie and Dave Steinmeyer) were both on 12Cish stuff. It's not a horn that I intend to sell... if I found the right mpc I would play it all the time.

[cow]

I play Bach 16 so long time. about 20years. its so good instrument.
but now I use C.G CONN (Elkhart) 6H.

Bach 16 allows you to play warm sounds with louder.
it has a very high limit and rich sound.
but it requires physical strength to continue playing with good quality.

limit of CONN 6h is not high, but it is very sensitive.
easier to add nuance and give a sharper performance. its so fun.
In bands, the trombone is often required to play with lively sound rather than rich sound.

I feel that 16 is definitely a higher quality instrument, but I prefer 6h because it's more fun to play.
when recording sweet solo, I like to use 16.

CONN's slide is heavy, so if you remove the weight it will be very unbalanced.

[timbone]

Nice post here but I must say that the original request was about two .508's compared to a .500 bore horn. I'm a .508 guy and have had both 16 and ss 3b; I have a '57 6h and want it to work but it's about the bore for me. If you break it down by bore, there are a lot of horn choices, but not .500 bore/8inch bell combos- the other is Martin I think. I'm sure someone here may know others?

[imsevimse]

Nice post here but I must say that the original request was about two .508's compared to a .500 bore horn. I'm a .508 guy and have had both 16 and ss 3b; I have a '57 6h and want it to work but it's about the bore for me. If you break it down by bore, there are a lot of horn choices, but not .500 bore/8inch bell combos- the other is Martin I think. I'm sure someone here may know others?

I list a few I own or I've played that are .500 and 8" bell
-Benge 170 freelance
-Lars Gerdt 216 TIS
-Conn 6H
-Conn 48H
-Yamaha 352
-Schilke ST30
-Kanstul 750
-Kuhnl & Hoyer Bert van Lier model
-Martin Urbie Green model TR4501
-Bach 12

//Tom