Bass trombone position chart

[Falin]

I am looking for a position chart for bass trombone Bb-F-Gb. This one is good, but really hard to read: https://www.norlanbewley.com/music/trom ... assnew.pdf

Is there something more readable out there?

[BGuttman]

Check out Doug Yeo's site: www.yeodoug.com

Particularly here: https://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/f ... chart.html

[Sesquitone]

The following ETSP (Equitempered Tone/Slide Position) Chart shows relative Bb positions (black dots); F-attachment positions (open circles), first-through-third harmonics; Gb-attachment positions (stars), first-through-fourth harmonics; and D-double-attachment positions (stars-in-circles), first and second harmonics. Higher attachment harmonics are mostly too close to slide-alone harmonics and not usually used except for 'special effects'.

The red-shaded zones are bordered by a chromatic scale with shortest slide positions. The blue-shaded zones are bordered by a chromatic scale with longest slide positions. The unshaded portions between the coloured zones indicate where alternate positions are available. The 'wider' the unshaded portions, the more alternates. You can see at a glance where the coloured zones touch, indicating no alternates for those tones.

With the F and Gb attachments tuned precisely, the double combination D tuning is (theoretically) a few cents flat--as can be seen. Adjust (slightly) according to your personal preferences.

As you can see, the F-attachment and Gb-attachment tones are quite close together. This is why some players prefer a G-natural tuning for the 'second' valve. And, as is fairly well known, the G-natural tuning gives a lot more handy attachment alternates (including the fifth harmonic).

I personally prefer the G-natural tuning for the thumb-trigger attachment, with the finger-trigger attachment tuned to (a 20 cent sharp) E. This gives a perfectly-in-tune D tuning for the double combination, with a very evenly distributed set of harmonics throughout the whole range.

When playing attachment tones, think of the instrument tuned in the respective 'key'--with respective (longer) 1st, 2nd, 3rd, . . . positions in that 'key'. Practice playing simple tunes (scalar passages or arpeggios) entirely with the F attachment and entirely with the Gb attachment--until muscle-memory kicks in. Do NOT think of attachment positions as 'altered Bb positions'!




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[Kbiggs]

Bruce, the chart you posted is for dependent trombones.

To the OP: what model bass trombone do you play? Does your horn have a dependent (“stacked”) set-up, or an independent set-up? Dependent means the second valve can only change the pitch when the first valve (usually an F valve) is played. If you have an independent set-up, then there are other position charts that list additional valve-slide combinations.

Keep in mind that a position chart is only an approximation. You have to use your ear to play in tune, which means time spent listening and playing with drones or a tuner.

FWIW 2: I tried posting a pdf of the Bb/F/Gb/D chart from Elizer Aharoni’s book, but I’m having technical difficulties. I’ll try again tomorrow.

[AtomicClock]

What don't you like about Norman Bewley's chart?

[Pezza]

In a brass band the position is the end of the trombones, near the tubas.
Concert band / orchestra, end of the trombones, either next to the eupho or the tuba.
Big band, end of the trombones, behind the bari sax.
Marching, I'm generally left marker!

[Sesquitone]

Falin is clearly looking for a chart for the common independent tuning: Bb/F(thumb)-Gb(finger)-D(double).

The 'complication' with the Bewley chart is the use of 'decimal' attachment positions, where, for example, 'Gb2.5' means 'somewhere between slide-alone positions 2 and 3'. These 'prescriptions' for finding positions are not only vague, but 'altered-slide-alone' positions are also not the best way to 'visualise' attachment positions.

The chart below by Micah Everett is much more straightforward, giving designations of all slide positions, rather than vague 'prescriptions' for finding them. All positions should be 'found' by ear! Clearly, 'Vee' is for F-attachment positions, 'Gamma' for Gb-attachment positions and 'Delta' for the D-double-attachment positions. Note that Dr Everett's chart does not extend down into attachment pedals--but these are just a repeat of the upper tones, one octave lower, using the same respective positions.

The problem with the Jurgen Faisst (via Doug Yeo) diagram--for a dependent setup, Bb/F/D--is that the positions shown, even for the slide alone, are mostly very inaccurate. If we take 1st and 7th positions as given, the other (correctly placed) slide-alone positions are as shown by the downward-facing red arrowheads. The upward-facing red arrowheads show the precise positions of the F-attachment tones (for which the Faisst positions are much closer). The upward-facing black arrowheads are for the D-attachment, for which the Faisst positions (beyond first) are all too long. Also, staff-notations of attachment tones above the F-attachment third harmonic and above the D-attachment second harmonic are of only academic interest, and unnecessarily complicate the picture.








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[Falin]

Falin is clearly looking for a chart for the common independent tuning: Bb/F(thumb)-Gb(finger)-D(double).

Yes, sorry for not mentioning that. The Everett chart is great, thanks!

[Falin]

What don't you like about Norman Bewley's chart?

It is so cramped that it is sometimes hard to figure out which number(s) goes for which tone at a quick glance.

[Kbiggs]

Elizer Aharoni's chart. Sorry about the picture quality.

IMG_0192.jpeg

Again, slide charts are only an approximation. The exact placement will depend on the tendencies of your playing, your horn, and the note placement in the chord and musical line.

[Bach5G]

On bass, in particular, locking in your embouchure with the slide position is harder than it looks

[Sesquitone]

The Everett chart does not show the actual lengths of the respective extensions. For reference, I list them here, to the nearest millimetre. Of course, these are drafted to scale on the ETSP Chart shown previously. I did not show extension lengths for "Vee-6" and "Gamma-6" since these are beyond slide-alone 7th position, and the respective tones are easily available elsewhere, in "Delta-3" and "Delta-2", respectively.

Because the double-attachment produces a "D" that is 8¢ flat, the theoretical 'first position' for D would require 11 mm of compression against spring bumpers. Either of the two attachments (or both) could be tuned slightly sharp to compensate.

The Aharoni chart is not drafted to scale. And the Gb ('Second-valve') positions (relative to slide-alone, SA, positions) are seriously short! More like G-natural positions; but even too short for those in outer positions.

In fact, 2S is 0.9" beyond SA 2nd; 3S is 1.9" beyond SA 3rd; 4S is 2.9" beyond SA 4th; 5S is 3.9" beyond SA 5th; and 6S is 0.4" BEYOND SA 7th position!


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[Sesquitone]

Unfortunately, the Aharoni diagram is all too typical of charts that claim to show measured or calculated slide extension lengths. Not only are individual lengths often quite inaccurate, but relative positions are too. As mentioned earlier, Aharoni shows the 6th position of the Gb attachment at "about 1/2" above [i.e. shorter than] regular 7th", whereas, in fact, it's just over one centimetre beyond slide-alone 7th position. The Faisst diagram is somewhat more consistent, but most of the outer slide-alone and double-attachment positions are way too long. I attach a sketch of the difference between Aharoni's numbers (blue) and the correct extensions (red), below, using Dr Everett's designations for identifying positions of the three attachment combinations.

It is not difficult to calculate slide extension lengths using straightforward acoustics principles based on a geometric series (integer powers of the 12th-root of 2) for 12-note equitemperament. Although, in practice, the same instrument played by different performers or different instruments played by the same performer will all differ slightly, the slide-extension deviations are typically never more than a few millimetres.

With my ETSP Charts, I have gone to some effort to place all equitempered tones on all harmonics within the practical range as precisely as possible. This way, the relationships between any tones on any harmonics can be visualised at a glance--and immediately put into practice. This is the pedagogical advantage of the precise graphical portrayal.


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[Kbiggs]

I agree that the ETSP charts provide additional helpful information, and are more accurate.

I also think that a simpler chart, like the Aharoni chart, is easier to understand, especially for younger players and older players less inclined to analysis. It provides a general area in reference to the seven basic positions. Players then learn intonation by adjusting the hand slide with practice and tuners/drones.

Personally, I find that the chromatic charts like Norman Bewley’s or Micah Everett’s are less useful than a position chart like Aharoni’s or the Faisst/Yeo chart.

Re: nomenclature, using two Greek letters to denote the G (or Gb) valve and both valves together adds a layer of complexity. I like the symbols V, V, and V/V. The meanings are symbolic but straightforward.

[Sesquitone]

To my knowledge, there has never been any discussion on the subject of standardising labels for attachment positions. There are a multitude of different symbols used by different authors, some clearer to read than others. I personally don't like the idea of using "altered" slide-alone position notation. First of all, it's messy, and secondly it is a prescription for "finding" the position of each tone rather than a simple label. This is not good pedagogy. Positions for the slide-alone and each attachment combination should be found "by ear" (perhaps with the help of an electronic tuner) and practised until committed to muscle memory. No matter how the base instrument and various attachments are tuned (or which attachment comes "first" or "second" along the sound-path), to paraphrase Blair Bollinger (within the appropriate ranges), for a dependent setup:

"You have three trombones (in one), use all three in their respective keys!"

For independent in-line geometry:

"You have four trombones (in one), use all four in their respective keys!"

And, when necessary (for example, to distinguish between alternate positions), label accordingly.

Since, with both dependent and independent geometry, the triggers are (usually) actuated by the thumb (T for "thumb"), or middle finger (F for "finger"), or both (D for "double"), no matter what the relative tunings of the attachments, the following labelling system is always simple, clear, and informative [as to which digit(s) to use]:

For dependent:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
T1, T2, T3, T4, . . .
D1, D2, D3, D4, . . .

For independent:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
T1, T2, T3, T4, . . .
F1, F2, F3, F4, . . .
D1, D2, D3, D4, . . .

[AtomicClock]

There are a multitude of different symbols used by different authors, some clearer to read than others.

i can't help but think of this old xkcd.
https://xkcd.com/927/

[Kbiggs]

There are a multitude of different symbols used by different authors, some clearer to read than others.

i can't help but think of this old xkcd.
https://xkcd.com/927/

That’s gold. A real and comedic commentary on the ingenuity of human beings throughout history.

I have my preferences. They work for me, and the bass trombone students I’ve had.

I honestly don’t know what is “good” pedagogy and what is not (presumably this means “bad” pedagogy) in this instance. With so many different approaches, perhaps the “best” pedagogy is the one that works best in the moment, within reason. One mark of a good teacher is flexibility: knowing when one approach is working and using that while it continues to be useful, and when one approach isn’t working and trying something else.

No one in this thread has said that bass trombonists shouldn’t use their ears to find the correct slide position. I think most of assume it has to be done, and that we do our best to teach others to use their ears at all times. We know what sounds good for a major chord, but a major-minor 7th chord can be fraught with danger depending on how it resolves. Yes, there’s science and measurement in music, but music is art. Standards are what we make them.

Speaking of standards and standardization, that may be due to the modern bass trombone’s relative new-ness: the different systems (dependent vs. independent vs. single with a pull), and the different tunings of crooks, the explosion of different valves, and all their advantages and disadvantages. With all the new equipment, it would be a miracle if there were any consensus at this point.

[Sesquitone]

In case anyone were to be concerned about F (for finger) and D (for double) being confused with the names of notes, you could use M (for middle-finger) and P (for pair). Then, for any tunings of the base instrument and attachment tubing, you'd have:

For dependent:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
T1, T2, T3, T4, . . .
P1 , P2 , P3 , P4 , . . .

For independent:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
T1, T2, T3, T4, . . .
M1, M2, M3, M4, . . .
P1 , P2 , P3 , P4 , . . .


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[ghmerrill]

In case anyone were to be concerned about F (for finger) and D (for double) being confused ...

That's an unforgiveable departure into clarity of a long-standing and revered muddle of confused notations. It will never be adopted.

[AtomicClock]

unforgiveable departure into clarity

... as long as we all just speak English. I suspect the Greek letters were an attempt to internationalize.

[Sesquitone]

Micah Everett's Greek letter labels are primarily designed for the popular in-line tuning:
Bb/F(thumb)-Gb(finger)-D(double).
The Gamma designates positions with the G-flat attachment engaged; the Delta designates positions with both attachments engaged, which together produce a fairly-well-in-tune D with the slide closed (only 8¢ flat).

They could also be used for the other well-known independent tuning using a G-natural (finger) attachment with the traditional F (thumb) attachment. Then the double combination with the slide closed produces a 30¢-flat nominal "Eb". This is not playable as an equitempered Eb, so the double-attachment equitempered fundamental with the shortest slide position is again D (at an extension of 94 mm, i.e. 6 mm beyond slide-alone 2nd position).

They could also apply to the so-called "Bollinger" tuning, where the finger-trigger-actuated attachment is tuned "half-way" (i.e. at the harmonic mean) between G-natural and G-flat. Compared with the Bb/F-Gb-D tuning, the Bollinger tuning shifts the extensions of all finger-trigger and double-trigger tones further out along the slide by 53 mm.


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[CBlair]

The attached pic, if I did this correctly, is an Imperial System solution to an exact slide placement. The only problem is being able to read the tape while playing. So, it’s back to practicing and listening.

[Sesquitone]

Just in case anyone was wondering, here's a comparison of three in-line tunings shown on ETSP Charts:
Bb/F-G-"Eb", Bb/F-G(b/2)-D (Bollinger), and Bb/F-Gb-D. Slide-alone tones are shown by black dots. Thumb-trigger-actuated attachment tones are shown by open circles. Finger-trigger-actuated attachment tones are shown by "stars". Double-trigger-actuated attachment tones by "stars-within-circles". The shaded regions are bounded by chromatic scales using shortest possible (red) and longest possible (blue) slide positions. Where the coloured regions touch, there are no alternate positions.

Note, at a glance, how the shaded regions of the combination with the G-natural attachment "penetrate" into the middle a lot less than with the other tunings. In other words, the unshaded regions, especially in the otherwise awkward low-tenor register, are "wider" for this tuning--meaning that there are a lot more handy attachment alternates available. [Single-G-natural-valve (tenor trombone) advocates are already aware of the advantages of this minor-third (sesquitone) tuning.]

Compare the "vertical distribution" of all slide-alone and attachment harmonics (heavy curves sloping down to the right). Which tuning gives the most "uniform" interleaving of harmonics throughout the complete practical range (especially in the lower- and immediate sub-bass-clef register)?

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[Sesquitone]

Here's an updated (literally, cut-and-paste) version of the Faisst/Yeo position chart showing more accurate relative positions for Bb (slide-alone), F-attachment, and D-attachment tones. Compared with the original. And an ETSP Chart for this dependent Bb/F/D dual-valve tuning.

For the F-attachment, I've only shown the lowest three harmonics, and for the D-attachment, only the lowest two--because higher attachment harmonics (for these tunings) are rarely used, except for some "special effects". Since, as discussed above, there is no consensus on a standard for labelling attachment positions, I have not shown any attachment-position labels. I've included the F-attachment "6th" position (to show just how far beyond slide-alone 7th position the correct position is). In practice, with dual valves, this over-extended position would not be used--because the C's are easily available in D-attachment 3rd position (and the G2 in slide-alone 4th).

Note how the D-attachment positions ("star"-inside-a-circle in the ETSP Chart) relate nicely to the slide-alone (SA) positions. To within a few millimetres:
D-attachment 2nd position sits "half-way" between SA 2nd and 3rd positions.
D-attachment 3rd position almost aligns with SA 4th position.
D-attachment 4th position sits "half-way" between SA 5th and 6th positions.
D-attachment 5th position (with its non-pedal Bb1) almost aligns with SA 7th position.

These are "recipes" for "finding" the D-attachment positions when first learning the dual-attachment instrument. They should not be relied on when playing (or for labelling!). Rather, "by-ear" muscle-memory should kick in. Similarly, of course, for the F-attachment positions.

On the ETSP Chart, note how the coloured regions "touch" each other throughout the bass-clef region and below, more often than with independent dual-valve tunings (shown earlier)--indicating fewer alternate positions in this important register for a bass trombone.


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