Switching to bass trombone

[jaydencday]

Next year, my high school won't have a bass trombone player, and my lessons teacher is suggesting I make the switch from tenor to bass since I have a strong lower register. I am considering this, but I have a couple questions:

1. Is switching from a tenor to bass harder? I have strong air support on my tenor already, but I'm wondering how much harder a bass trombone is.

2. Is a single or double rotor a better first purchase? My lessons teacher is offering a used YBL-421G for $1,250, but i have found an offer for a Rath R900 for $1,900. A single rotor is definitely more beginner friendly and allows for an easier transition to a double rotor, but the other option is only around 600 more.

Sorry for my lack of knowledge on this subject, as it's fairly new to me. If I am to switch instruments, it wouldn't be until around October, so there's still much more planning and time involved.

[Burgerbob]

1. Yup, but it's not a totally different world.

2. Get the R900 for sure.

[hyperbolica]

The differences with bass are that A) you have a different function in the ensemble - you probably won't get as many nice lyrical lines on bass - more root-and-fifth kind of stuff and B) on bass sometimes you're a 3rd tenor, and sometimes a surrogate tuba.

Bass bone can be more physical because its heavier and takes more air. For a high schooler that shouldn't be a problem.

As for which to get, a used double is the way to go. Learn the F valve first, and the second valve as needed.

Bass bone is as much a philosophy as anything. Get a teacher who plays bass. Get the Aharoni non-classical book for bass in addition to whatever conventional studies you do. That will help you learn idiomatic figures for different styles. Definitely helpful for jazz band or rock band.

Anyway have fun with it. Practice hard. Even if you don't go pro, musical skills stay with you your whole life.

[Kbiggs]

1. No, it is not harder. It is different, like hyperbolica said. You will play nice lyrical lines in solos.

2. There is always a place for a single valve bass trombone, especially in orchestras where a lot of the literature up to about 1915-1920 is easily played on a single valved instrument. But for a first bass, seeing that you have the means and the opportunity, go for the Rath R900.

3. Beginning literature. Both Aharoni books are excellent, and standard.

As a beginning bass student who has experience with tenor, the primary challenges are air flow and support, and facility with valves and in the valve register. Reginald Fink has a primer on bel canto playing in the valve register (I think it’s something like “Lyrical playing for the f-attachment or bass trombone”). Lew Gillis has a progressive tutor, where he has chapters devoted to each additional valved note. Each section has nice melodies and exercises that develop facility in the lower register.

The above are older books (tried and true), but there is a bunch of new music for bass trombone—etudes, solos, etc. A good teacher will direct you (see no. 5, below).

4. Buy recordings of good bass trombonists. Listen to them.

5. Find a good teacher who plays bass trombone.

[Matt K]

Agree on the Rath. The 2nd valve is super nice to have. I wish I’d gone independent much sooner too. I played on dependents for years.

Incidentally, I find bass to be easier than tenor. I’ve always had a naturally easy low range, and my ears seem to much more readily hear what something is supposed to sound like before I play it in the low and middle register than the high ranges.

[vetsurginc]

Go for the double independent. You can always start with the F valve, add in the Gb, and then double valve figures. Blair Bollinger's "Valve Technique for Bass Trombone" is a good approach for me, as is Brad Edwards "Bass Trombone Craft." All backed up by a good bass bone teacher, who doubles.

Also, keep your tenor working. Learn doubling now, for more opportunities to play. Already got the horn, right?

[fsgazda]

Also, keep your tenor working. Learn doubling now, for more opportunities to play. Already got the horn, right?

This, x100.

[harrisonreed]

1. Don't "switch". Double. Bass bone is way deeper than I thought from the outside. If you hit a point where someone is going to pay you to play bass bone full time, you can see just how deep down the rabbit hole goes down and "switch". For high school band, you can probably learn to hang on both, as needed. In terms of switching back and forth, the bass bone is far more physically taxing. I can finesse a tenor. I can't finesse a low C that has ff written below it for longer than a few seconds, and in my limited experience that is what composers and arrangers always seem to want the bass to do. "I need this low C as loud as you can play it, for ten seconds. And then do it again and again". That's an exaggeration, but I'm always writing in meticulous notes for where to breathe in the bass parts, but not as much for tenor.

[Matt K]

Harrison, have you ever tried putting your 547 on your bass for those footballs? Makes anything requiring dexterity in the basement not as fun, but for pads, I hate to admin that it works really well for me. Just a little extra resistance.

[harrisonreed]

The slide? I don't think it's compatible. Yamaha vs Edwards. I've not tried that though.

I've tried the mouthpiece I use on tenor, but that was pretty laugh worthy.

[Matt K]

Some of the Yamaha bell sections accept Edwards/Bach large/bass bores... or at least the one I played in college did. I've been experimenting lately and have a special setup for those scenarios now. Essentially a 1.5 leadpipe, bass crook 547 slide. I've gone from using a 114 primarily to a 108. For most playing on my dual bore I go SB I / I10, but for long notes, I have an MB J / J8 on the smaller, 547 slide. The bigger bell section still makes the low range feel easy, but the extra resistance gives me at least an extra 25% if I'm really going for it. The slightly smaller bore also makes it "sound" louder too, which is often what those composers are going for.

[JeffBone44]

Get the R900. On bass trombone you'll want to have that 2nd valve. You may see some low C's and B's, and with two valves you'll be able to play them in comfortable positions. Also, on a single valve trombone, you can't even play low B natural unless you pull the F-tuning slide all the way out.

I don't know about bass being harder than tenor. It all depends in how you approach it. If you have the right approach, it won't be any harder, but with the wrong approach it may be. The main difference is in how you use your air. I guess it will be harder at first because it's new, but like anything else new that you try, you will get used to it, as your body will adjust naturally. A .547 tenor vs. a .562 bass really are pretty close. It's actually smaller than the difference between a .500 bore small tenor and .547 bore large tenor. (.015 inches vs. .047 inches)

Also, I agree with those who say don't switch, but double. Play both tenor and bass. You'll find that doubling is very valuable. As both a tenor and bass trombonist, being able to play both increases the opportunity for getting called for jobs. Virtually every bass trombonist that I know plays some tenor also. Sometimes I am even asked to play alto trombone.

[Macbone1]

1. Don't "switch". Double......bass bone is far more physically taxing......"I need this low C as loud as you can play it, for ten seconds. And then do it again and again". That's an exaggeration, but I'm always writing in meticulous notes for where to breathe in the bass parts, but not as much for tenor.

Amen to this. I've known bass bone majors back in college who had left off tenor for so long they could hardly tongue one decent sounding note on it. So they "lost" their tenor chops.

I'm a tenor and bass doubler, and from about low D on down the bass turns into a vacuum cleaner, sucking the air out of your lungs at any volume above mp! There is no corresponding feeling on a tenor. Also, you will find the bass much more responsive on the attacks and to dynamics due to the large bore. Adjust accordingly. And yes, the Rath is the best investment for you.

[Kbiggs]

Yes. Keep the tenor chops up, and learn to double.

[JohnL]

If I am to switch instruments, it wouldn't be until around October, so there's still much more planning and time involved.

Absolutely do a lot of listening - but not just to recordings the feature really good bass trombonists. Listen to orchestras and big bands with really good bass trombonists in them, paying particular attention to how the bass trombone fits their sound into the texture of the ensemble. It takes a lot of bass trombone players a LONG time to learn when NOT to "let it all hang out".

[Rrova]

Along the same lines of keeping up your tenor playing, is working upper register on bass as much as you do lower stuff. Its easy to get sucked into the low and loud stuff. Its fun and people like it. However, if all you do is play low, you could very well lose your high range (dont' ask me how I know).

[hyperbolica]

Its great to be able to pull out either instrument, but make sure you're really good on one. If you're mediocre on two instruments, thats not a big advantage, but keeping one at a high level and the other "available" will bring opportunity.

[Pezza]

It takes a lot of bass trombone players a LONG time to learn when NOT to "let it all hang out".

Couldn't agree more. Not all pieces are bass trom solo with band accompaniment (tho it is fun)!

Also don't get suckered into the bigger is better route. I did, but have gone back to a 1.5G and am a better all round bass trom player because of it. Sometimes I use my eupho 3G in my bass.

I struggled for years to play tenor trom well. I thought I just couldn't play it! In the past 3 years I've gotten a Bach 12 with a 6.5AL & my tenor playing has never been better. I tried to keep my tenor trom & mp big so it wasn't so different from the bass. I've discovered that I need them different so I take a different outlook to how the 2 play .

Baritone horn on the other hand is just a mongrel instrument! Anything above a mf I may as well be playing a trombone. I recently played 1st baritone at a competition, had to be very careful & watch my tone!

[JohnL]

Baritone horn on the other hand is just a mongrel instrument! Anything above a mf I may as well be playing a trombone. I recently played 1st baritone at a competition, had to be very careful & watch my tone!

Baritone horn in a British-style brass band always seems to me to be rather tightly constrained timbre-wise. You're slotted between the euphos, trombones, and tenor horns. Depending on the situation, sometimes you need to blend with one of the those sections, sometimes you need to "bridge" between two or more of them. At the same time, you need to have a timbre that's distinct from the other 9' instruments.

[Pezza]

1st baritone is the repiano cornet of the bottom end! Plays a bit with everyone, plus gets solos.
Great parts, I just can't play the instrument well enough to do it justice, and a eupho on the part has the wrong tone.

[MrHCinDE]

I fully agree with others that bass is a totally different animal.

With the benefit of hindsight, I‘m very glad I put in the effort to learn several low brass instruments at high school age. What worked for me was to play different instruments in different groups, at the peak for me it was four on the go in the last year of high school. I sometimes had to prioritise practice hours depending on upcoming exams/concerts/competitions etc. but it was just about manageable.

At that stage, for most students I don‘t think the focus is on picking up paid gigs, it‘s more about gathering playing experience and figuring out what you find most interesting. Doubling just simply opens up more doors for that.

As I‘m now a relatively old f@rt and also with hindsight, there‘s no way I would have had time for learning multiple instruments at university (non-music degree) or once I started working. I can still pick up any of the instruments I’ve learned and get back to a good standard within a week or two so you could say I‘m still benefiting from putting in the mileage in back in my youth.

I‘ve sometimes reflected on whether I‘d have been better off sticking with one instrument and really maximising my potential on it but those thoughts pass pretty quickly when I look back on the memories of the great playing opportunities that came my way at high-school/university age (concerts, international tours, CD recordings etc.) which I wouldn’t probably have got without doubling.

[BigBadandBass]

Bass is different, but it is trombone. You already know 7 of the positions. The other 16 or so aren’t that hard

Buy the Rath, playing wind band music flows much better on a dual. Imo, you can play your whole career with an independent bass, but not with a single (I know I’m begging for a BUT ACTUALLY reply)

It’s different but the same, you’ll probably struggle a bit at first, with the weight, moving the fingers in combination, blowing through 2 valves but if you have a good sound concept and a goal you can always hear, then you’ll be fine

[gbedinger]

Bass is different, but it is trombone. You already know 7 of the positions. The other 16 or so aren’t that hard

This isn’t the first time I’ve seen reference to 16 additional positions with independent that are additional to the 7 of a regular trombone.

Are there then +/- 23 positions to an independent bass trombone? Yes, but only in theory. I’ve never approached an independent with the thought of playing it with that many possibilities. It’s hard enough to line up the 7 regular and 6 additional single valve positions to stay in tune. If I had tried using all those other positions? My head would have exploded.

Yes, get the double valve Rath, it will give you more playing options, but don’t get wrapped around those “theoretical possibilities”. At least at first, use the second valve AS AN ASSIST FOR THE LOWER NOTES. For me, that means Db, C, B-natural, nothing more. You’ll find it far less overwhelming. If then you are able to start branching out with those exotic position/valve combinations, which are certainly available, then I’ll be the first to be impressed. Just don’t let it be intimidating…it doesn’t need to be.

[harrisonreed]

I am no great bass player, but there is little music written that you are likely to come across where an indie horn is going to be the difference that makes something playable. I might as well just get a dependent bass if I ever buy one. I wonder if it would feel better on the Bb side. C and B are really all I used the second valve for, and it seemed like those notes come up constantly.

I finally have my bass mouthpiece set the way I want, speaking of gear. I have one with a fairly deep cup, 1.055" rounded rim and .311" throat. It finally feels like I can get enough air in to easily play loudly and full in the low C range.

What is the reason for going larger in the rim diameter (beyond 1.5G)? Is it to try and increase the cup volume without increasing the length/depth of the piece? Seems like every note is playable and sounds right on the ~2G width.

[Matt K]

I love my independent G valve. The primary benefit of the independent is actually for notes that are quite accessible even on a single valve bass. On most basses it's Gb, of course, which gives you access to Gb and Db in the staff in a comfortable position. G, even more so. It gives access to everything from 4th position to 7th position in either 1st or 2nd position, as well as 3rd and 4th on the G side, but I seldom use it to actually play something with difficult technique. I use it because it's convenient!

[imsevimse]

Is it more difficult to play bass trombone compared to a tenor?

Is it more difficult to play a violin compared to a trombone?

All these comparisons are very difficult to give straight answers to. Most tenor players I know who bought a bass believe it first to be easy, but after they struggle with it for a while they come to another conclusion. In the beginning you are not that exposed for solos and that can give a feeling of getting by the parts better especially if you are not a strong soloist or strong melodic player on tenor first. In the begining you might not be in need of the high register on the bass and that can then be a relief for those who struggle with the high register. You can last a four hours dance gig better. In the beginning you may also think it is easier to get a "nice" sound on bass, what ever that means because you get that big mouthpiece with room for your lips. This can be true if sound has been your problem on a small mouthpiece. You could hear yourself with a fuller sound where YOU sit, but what about projection? How far does your sound reach in the room? Can the section hear you and are you providing a fundament and solid pitch for the rest of the section to build on? What about those loud trigger notes where you are alone and the band answers, or the other way around. You now have another role as a bass trombone player.

Of course all these things discussed are not easy, they need work and lots of practice and if professional qualities on the result is the goal then these qualities are crucial to master.
I would be as brave as to say the demands of a professional bass trombonist today is as high as on a profesaional tenor player. After the double valve became common, professional parts are more difficult and demands on the higher register on a professional bass trombone player is also high. Demands on good sound and fast technique on the modern bass also in the lowest register means you need a very well developed emboushure and fast trigger technique. Add to that the physical reasons, a bass is a more heavy instrument and if it is an older model the slide also is heavier, which means more mass to move, and it takes larger amounts of air to play the loud low notes compared to the loud high notes.
I say all these things sums (for me) that to play bass trombone is more difficult compared to tenor, especially when it comes to physics.

/Tom

[BigBadandBass]

Bass is different, but it is trombone. You already know 7 of the positions. The other 16 or so aren’t that hard

This isn’t the first time I’ve seen reference to 16 additional positions with independent that are additional to the 7 of a regular trombone.

Are there then +/- 23 positions to an independent bass trombone? Yes, but only in theory. I’ve never approached an independent with the thought of playing it with that many possibilities. It’s hard enough to line up the 7 regular and 6 additional single valve positions to stay in tune. If I had tried using all those other positions? My head would have exploded.

Yes, get the double valve Rath, it will give you more playing options, but don’t get wrapped around those “theoretical possibilities”. At least at first, use the second valve AS AN ASSIST FOR THE LOWER NOTES. For me, that means Db, C, B-natural, nothing more. You’ll find it far less overwhelming. If then you are able to start branching out with those exotic position/valve combinations, which are certainly available, then I’ll be the first to be impressed. Just don’t let it be intimidating…it doesn’t need to be.

I wouldn’t say they are theoretical, they’re there and they have their uses and for me the concept of having more options means more ease of playing and room for other concepts.

It also purely depends on who is being taught and who’s learning if they find the idea of more positions like the party trick of playing a Gb major triad without ever having to go to first or leaving it (symphonic metamorphosis comes to mind as a great excerpt to experiment with alternative valvings) interesting or exciting like I did it only helps fuel the learning process.

Everyone has different thought points and the common core seems to be approach the valves as low note enablers, personally I think that’s great starter but, it also means you’re not using the full horn to it’s full potential

[Sesquitone]

It's important to be able to literally visualise where slide positions—for both slide-alone and attachment(s)—lie along the slide. A precise graphical portrayal of equitempered tones (vertical axis) versus slide position (horizontal axis) provides such a visualisation. This is the ETSP chart. Below, the first ETSP chart shows available slide-alone equitempered tones (black dots) for a Bb tenor (without attachment). Note the five missing tones between the bottom of the tenor register and the top of the pedal tones.

The second chart is for a Bb/F single-valve combination. Available attachment tones for the first harmonic (pedals), and second and third harmonics are shown by open circles. Note how the correct positions for the C2 and (pedal) C1 (at 661 mm) are beyond the length of a normal tenor slide (about 620 mm)—requiring embouchure adjustment. As is well known, the B1 (natural) is entirely missing.

A number of "fixes" for extending the low-register to give a continuous chromatic range have been tried. First, extending the attachment to E (natural) by pulling the attachment tuning slide (or using a static extension valve) puts the Cs well onto the slide—but the B1 is still well beyond the end: part (b) of the third chart. Placing the B1 at slide-alone seventh position is sometimes called a "flat-E" tuning of the attachment: part (c). But this is actually closer to Eb (29¢ sharper that an in-tune Eb). As seen, an Eb attachment, part (d), provides a continuous chromatic path down to pedals.

Finally, the fourth chart shows the full range for a Bb/Eb single-valve combination. The Eb attachment is tuned 14¢ sharp to provide some handy attachment alternates from the fifth harmonic. The attachment third and fourth harmonics closely overlap the slide-alone second and third harmonics, respectively, and are therefore not shown. A single-valve Bb/Eb bass trombone is only slightly heavier than a comparable Bb/F instrument (because of the longer attachment tubing). Slide manipulation in the low register is no more awkward than with an attachmentless tenor. But, in both cases, the low E-naturals and B-naturals are at the end of the slide—which is awkward and is one reason to consider dual-valve options, with either dependent or (in-line) independent geometry. I will explore ETSP charts for these in later posts.

[Sesquitone]

The first dual-valve bass trombone I had a chance to try was at a lecture/demonstration by Allen Ostrander (in 1961, at Ithaca College). This was a Conn bass trombone bell with a dual-bore slide (13.9 mm/14.3 mm) matched to a 14.3 mm bore F attachment, with a (dependent) valve extending the attachment to E. It was immediately obvious (to me—a graduate student in aerospace engineering at Cornell University, with training in acoustics and mechanical linkages) that there were two things wrong with this design:
(i) The E attachment extension was too short; the correct slide extension for B1 would be well beyond the end of the slide (at 701 mm)—see below.
(ii) The double spatula requiring a rolling/sliding action (by the left thumb) was awkward; an independent middle-finger-actuated linkage would be easier to use and much more precise.

Later commercially available dependent dual-valve bass trombones used an Eb extension; this puts the B1 on the slide, but a long way out (at 576 mm). [For reference, slide-alone seventh position is at 613 mm.] Also, independent linkages.

A dependent finger-actuated D extension (of a thumb-actuated F attachment) allows more facile slide manipulation, and is in common use today. With this tuning, the gap between the first and second harmonics of the Bb instrument is "filled" with a Bb major triad with the slide closed—giving a relatively uniform distribution of slide-alone and attachment harmonics in this low register.

Another dependent-valve tuning worth exploring is Db (extending the F attachment)—a Bb minor triad with the slide closed.

Of course, with two valves there is no "necessity" for the thumb-actuated valve to be tuned to F (other than compatibility with the "traditional" P4 single-valve tenor instrument). Since a Bb augmented triad gives the most uniform distribution of harmonics in the lowest register, a tuning of Bb/F#(thumb)/D(double) is worth exploring. This is like an independent (in-line) geometry tuned Bb/F(thumb)-Gb(finger)-D(double), played without using the F valve (with the finger and thumb action reversed). [Some bass trombone players using the independent Bb/F-Gb-D tuning find that they use the Gb valve more often than the F valve.]

Below, I have attached rough sketches of ETSP charts for Bb/F/D, Bb/F/Db, and Bb/F#/D dependent dual-valve geometries. Black dots represent available equitemered slide-alone tones. Thumb-actuated attachment tones are shown by open circles. And double-valve tones by stars-within-circles. Unshaded regions show, at a glance, where alternate positions are available. The dashed lines indicate whole-tone increments between adjacent harmonics. As a general rule, the steeper and more uniformly distributed the dashed lines (i.e. less sudden changes in slope), the "better" the slide facility.