From 5B to 2B in 40 years.

ttf_Willy de Woofer · Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:37 pm

Dear trombone friends,

In 1972 I started playing trombone. In short I went to the Conservatory. My teacher there told me to buy a King 5B. After my studie I bought a Holton TR ... (large bore with F-valve). Later I switched to Bach 42 and a large bore German Kühnl und Hoyer Slokar, Rath and Edwards 350 trombone. For buying the Edwards I took the plane to the U.S.A. and visited the Edwards(Getzen)factory. Christian Diego helped me choosing the right parts. That was the best large bore trombone I ever had.

Then I decided to gonna start taking lessons myself again. My former learned smile-embouchure had become worse and worse. I took lesson's from musicians from the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra, the Metropool Orchestra and many others. After a while I had a better sound on a small bore trombone than on a large bore. So I decided to gonna play smaller. Also because I haven't big lungs.

The small ones I owned were Schmelzer Nr.2, Kühnl und Hoyer 134, Edwards Jazz and five(don't tell my wife

)Conn 6H's from around 1960. The two best I play now for several years and I sold the others.
Mouthpieces have always been about 6.5 size and have been Bach, Denis Wick, Marcinkievicz, Hamilton, Greg Black and Doug Elliot.

At the moment I wonder if there is even a better trombone for me than the Conn 6H. A college has an old King 2B Silversonic and that would be a great instrument for me to. The Dutch importer of Shires invited me this weekend to visit him. I wonder if he has a better instrument for me. Even more body and more free blowing.

What is your advice?

Kind regards,
Wil
The Netherlands

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:17 pm

By all means try whatever the Shires dealer has. Probably the Michael Dease models. But there are still plenty of players who like Conn 6H's. You may like one better or you may not.

What kinds of playing do you do? It may be that the 6H is all you really wanted and you can stay with it. Or maybe a Yamaha 891Z or King 3B or 2B+. Many horns out there in that approximate size range.

Good luck.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:02 pm

I hear a lot of good stuff about Courtois small bore horns. Probably worth trying them as well.

ttf_Willy de Woofer · Post by **ttf_Willy de Woofer** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:00 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 17, 2017, 01:17PMBy all means try whatever the Shires dealer has. Probably the Michael Dease models. But there are still plenty of players who like Conn 6H's. You may like one better or you may not.

What kinds of playing do you do? It may be that the 6H is all you really wanted and you can stay with it. Or maybe a Yamaha 891Z or King 3B or 2B+. Many horns out there in that approximate size range.

Good luck.

The Shires dealer/importer is only one hour driving from my home. After this week I have vacation so I will visit him. One of his salesman is willing to bring some instruments of his own for me to try. He has f.i. a 2B Silversonic. They really want to help.
Maybe the 6H is already the best instrument for me!? I know the other King trombones pretty good, but it's not my choice.

At this moment I am only teaching and conducting, mostly young people. And I am helping people with playing problems in the Netherlands.

ttf_Willy de Woofer · Post by **ttf_Willy de Woofer** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:05 pm

Quote from: bonenick on Apr 17, 2017, 02:02PMI hear a lot of good stuff about Courtois small bore horns. Probably worth trying them as well.

Maybe I can try Courtois next week. Courtois is sponsor for the New Trombone Collective, but they play all large bore. One of them is Jörgen van Rijen. He plays some times with Joe Alessi.

ttf_growlerbox · Post by **ttf_growlerbox** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:49 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 17, 2017, 01:17PMBy all means try whatever the Shires dealer has. Probably the Michael Dease models.

Do you mean Michael Davis? Or is there a Dease model I haven't heard of?

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:53 am

If your in the Netherlands, you must try the K&H Bart Van Lier models! also his signature mouthpiece is about 6 1/2 size I believe!

ttf_Willy de Woofer · Post by **ttf_Willy de Woofer** » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:25 am

Quote from: vegasbound on Apr 18, 2017, 02:53AMIf your in the Netherlands, you must try the K&H Bart Van Lier models! also his signature mouthpiece is about 6 1/2 size I believe!

His .512 model is pretty good for me. I compared the trombone with my 6H. It's not really better. Great slide by the way.

ttf_Willy de Woofer · Post by **ttf_Willy de Woofer** » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:31 am

The Dutch Shires dealer wil contact me when the trombones arrive. At this moment they have only one model in stock and that is not one of the Michael David models. I would like to try his plus model.

ttf_Chris Fidler · Post by **ttf_Chris Fidler** » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:32 am

Give the Rath R12 a blow........ My new weapon of choice, Un-lacquered R650 Red brass bell, Nickel silver tuning slide, Fantastic combination

Kinda like a 2B on acid

ttf_Willy de Woofer · Post by **ttf_Willy de Woofer** » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:57 am

Quote from: Chris Fidler on Apr 18, 2017, 03:32AMGive the Rath R12 a blow........ My new weapon of choice, Un-lacquered R650 Red brass bell, Nickel silver tuning slide, Fantastic combination

Kinda like a 2B on acid

I write It on my list. I once visited the factory in Huddersfield England.

ttf_ghmerrill · Post by **ttf_ghmerrill** » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:24 am

This is bit amusing to me. I'm always tempted by what else might be fun to acquire and fun to play. I'm a rank amateur at trombone, of course. And with little breadth of experience in the wide range of equipment.

However, reading to the end of this thread and seeing the strong recommendation for the Rath R12, I took a look at the specs. The Raths are, I'm sure, wonderful horns, and I'd love to own one. But what's funny is ...

Late last year I acquired an Olds Standard (1947, with the "serpentine" braces) on Ebay. Aside from some minor finish issues and a little drag in the slide, it seemed great. $125 plus another $30 to get the slide fixed (one of the inners had a little bow in it). It's an incredibly easy instrument to play and definitely favors the original Olds 3 mouthpiece.

In terms of specs (dimensions, at least), it is VERY similar to the R12, though I believe its bore is just a bit bigger. I haven't measured it precisely, but indirect evidence and some crude attempts at measurement suggest it's .495"/.510". 7.5" bell. As people say "It plays bigger than it is." So maybe closer to an R1. But it could be one of the .485"/.500" ones. Great horn. Using a Kelly 12C (with shank taken down to fit the receiver) gives it a more "mellow" sound, but the Olds 3 is clearly what it wants.

ttf_Willy de Woofer · Post by **ttf_Willy de Woofer** » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:32 am

Quote from: ghmerrill on Apr 18, 2017, 06:24AMThis is bit amusing to me. I'm always tempted by what else might be fun to acquire and fun to play. I'm a rank amateur at trombone, of course. And with little breadth of experience in the wide range of equipment.

However, reading to the end of this thread and seeing the strong recommendation for the Rath R12, I took a look at the specs. The Raths are, I'm sure, wonderful horns, and I'd love to own one. But what's funny is ...

Late last year I acquired an Olds Standard (1947, with the "serpentine" braces) on Ebay. Aside from some minor finish issues and a little drag in the slide, it seemed great. $125 plus another $30 to get the slide fixed (one of the inners had a little bow in it). It's an incredibly easy instrument to play and definitely favors the original Olds 3 mouthpiece.

In terms of specs (dimensions, at least), it is VERY similar to the R12, though I believe its bore is just a bit bigger. I haven't measured it precisely, but indirect evidence and some crude attempts at measurement suggest it's .495"/.510". 7.5" bell. As people say "It plays bigger than it is." So maybe closer to an R1. But it could be one of the .485"/.500" ones. Great horn. Using a Kelly 12C (with shank taken down to fit the receiver) gives it a more "mellow" sound, but the Olds 3 is clearly what it wants.

Maybe instruments are kopied from the early ones. Only you have to pay a few thousend dollars for a new one. Wasn't the Wiliams a famous trombone and imitated?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:07 am

Quote from: Willy de Woofer on Apr 18, 2017, 06:32AMMaybe instruments are kopied from the early ones. Only you have to pay a few thousend dollars for a new one. Wasn't the Wiliams a famous trombone and imitated?

Actually, Williams took the Conn 6H and improved on it to create the Williams 6.

ttf_Willy de Woofer · Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:26 am

I just studied the website of Shires again and found a lot of different parts, like leadpipes, bell's etc.
I wonder wether my dealer will have soon all these parts in stock? If I am going to spend a few thousand, I wanna be shure I have the best Shires-combination there is for my purpose. What now?

Travelling to the factory in the States will cost a few thousand more.

ttf_Chris Fidler · Post by **ttf_Chris Fidler** » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:28 am

It would cost you a lot less to visit the Rath factory......... Just saying

ttf_Bruce the budgie · Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:48 am

Quote from: Chris Fidler on Apr 19, 2017, 12:28AMIt would cost you a lot less to visit the Rath factory......... Just saying

Yes, but half an hour's drive from Hopedale you will find Purgatory Chasm, a crevice in the granite 20 meters deep, or so. It's a nice place for a picnic, and parts of it get so little sun that I've seen snow on the ground there in June. Worth the extra expense and travel time? That, I could not tell you.

ttf_Willy de Woofer · Post by **ttf_Willy de Woofer** » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:57 am

Quote from: Chris Fidler on Apr 19, 2017, 12:28AMIt would cost you a lot less to visit the Rath factory......... Just saying

Chris,
The shop in Holland is one of the biggest in Europe. They sell also your

Rath trombones.
Wil

ttf_Willy de Woofer · Post by **ttf_Willy de Woofer** » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:06 am

Today I called the Shires dealer. Almost every part that exists they will have in stock soon. Exept extreme ones.
Mostly I end up with just brass material, no silver, no gold, nothing heavy or light weight.

One of the salesmen their, will bring a few trombones of his own for me to try. Even an old 2B Silversonic.

ttf_ConnBone18 · Post by **ttf_ConnBone18** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:45 am

Quote from: Willy de Woofer on Apr 19, 2017, 08:57AMChris,
The shop in Holland is one of the biggest in Europe. They sell also your

Rath trombones.
Wil

Which store do you mean?

ttf_Willy de Woofer · Post by **ttf_Willy de Woofer** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:13 am

That can only be Adams of course .

ttf_ConnBone18 · Post by **ttf_ConnBone18** » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:17 am

I thought so too. Large shop.

ttf_Willy de Woofer · Post by **ttf_Willy de Woofer** » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:11 am

Quote from: ConnBone18 on Apr 21, 2017, 01:17AMI thought so too. Large shop.

And factory. I wonder for how many million they instruments in stock?
They are seriously gonna help me with another instrument.

ttf_ConnBone18 · Post by **ttf_ConnBone18** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:40 am

Have you tried the New Adams trombones?

https://www.facebook.com/pg/AdamsBrass/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1274458662652643

ttf_Willy de Woofer · Post by **ttf_Willy de Woofer** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:24 pm

Quote from: ConnBone18 on Apr 26, 2017, 10:40AMHave you tried the New Adams trombones?

https://www.facebook.com/pg/AdamsBrass/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1274458662652643

Yes I did and they are rather good in my opinion. All models were in balance from low until high. Off course all playing and sounding different depending of the shape and materials. According to me Adams is doing a fine job.

Kind regards, Wil van den Dungen

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:00 pm

Quote from: Willy de Woofer on Apr 18, 2017, 03:25AMHis .512 model is pretty good for me. I compared the trombone with my 6H. It's not really better. Great slide by the way.
I just bought a used K&H BvL .512
It's an amazing horn with a warm sound. I play it with a Yamaha 45c2 mouthpiece, wich keeps the warm sound, but add a liitle edge to it.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:00 pm

Quote from: Willy de Woofer on Apr 18, 2017, 03:25AMHis .512 model is pretty good for me. I compared the trombone with my 6H. It's not really better. Great slide by the way.
I just bought a used K&H BvL .512
It's an amazing horn with a warm sound. I play it with a Yamaha 45c2 mouthpiece, wich keeps the warm sound, but add a liitle edge to it.