Next Trombone after a Bach 42?

[hgarri0286]

I’m a sophomore in college, and I’ve been playing on a Bach 42BO since 8th grade. My professor is recommending over the summer to invest in a more modern horn like a Shires. What’s a solid horn that I can progress to that’s similar to a Bach? I like the feel and tone of a Bach, but I want to know if there’s a horn that is more efficient with the same characteristic Bach sound.

[tkelley216]

First off if there is nothing wrong with the Bach, don't fix it. There's a reason why the 42 is an industry standard and many people still play it professionally.

If you like the sound and feel of a Bach 42, you should probably play a Bach 42. Not all Bach's play the same, so you should consider trying a few other Bach's if you have the opportunity. I had a friend switch from a newer 42BO to a corporation era closed wrap Bach and the difference was night and day between the two. He still plays the corp Bach professionally to my knowledge. The newer Bach's could be good as well, but a decent used Bach will be almost half the cost of a new one and either way you need to try before you buy due to production inconsistencies.

A lot of modern trombones on the market are inspired by Bach, so you could go to almost any maker and find something similar. The courtois 420 and 421 series look and play just like Bach's. If I was personally going to buy a new Bach-like instrument I'd probably get the getzen 4047 which is the Edwards/getzen take on the 42 and outplays most Edwards configurations in my opinion.

As anyone will tell you on this forum, try before you buy. If there is a larger music store with many offerings within a days drive, do yourself a favor and go. Bring your teacher with you if possible. You can read a lot about how particular instruments play on this forum, but if you are the one purchasing the instrument the only opinion that matters is yours.

[EriKon]

Stick with the Bach and better invest in a second instrument that gets you more gig possibilities in the future. A Bach 42 is a great horn, so no need to necessarily change it. For classical trombone that might be an alto trombone. Or if you're also interested in other musical genres that could be a straight small bore tenor. Euphonium could be interesting as well. Could also start the doubling game with a bass trombone.

[tbonesullivan]

If it is a standard Bach 42BO, many feel that the valve and gooseneck are undersized, which can limit playing somewhat. On the other hand one of the best players I know and have played with plays a stock Bach 42BO, and sounds incredible on it.

What condition is the horn in? I know that high school can be quite hard on trombones in terms of wear and tear.

Has your professor made any specific recommendations? Shires, Edwards, Rath, and other modular horns really work best when you go in to have a horn fitted to your specific needs.

[Burgerbob]

There are lots of more modern Bachs out there that would probably fit the ticket as well.

[Matt K]

Definitely make your way to a trade show like ITF if you have the ability. Or go to somewhere like Dillon Music or Baltimore brass where they have a lot of variety.

There are a ton of Bach-like horns out there, depending on how you define "like". Something that works for a lot of people on Bach 42s are Thayer valves, if you like the sound but want the blow to be a little differently. Lots of people like 42 and 42 like horns w/ Thayers.

[tbonesullivan]

There are lots of more modern Bachs out there that would probably fit the ticket as well.

Also this. Currently I'm having an ongoing shootout between my 1999 Bach 42T and my recently acquired Demo Bach 42BOF. They are remarkably similar in feel, sound, everything, however the BOF requires 10 times less valve maintenance and oiling.

[nbulgarino]

I’m a sophomore in college, and I’ve been playing on a Bach 42BO since 8th grade. My professor is recommending over the summer to invest in a more modern horn like a Shires. What’s a solid horn that I can progress to that’s similar to a Bach? I like the feel and tone of a Bach, but I want to know if there’s a horn that is more efficient with the same characteristic Bach sound.

I've been on a similar journey. I really like the sound and feel of a Bach 42, and I've tried everything to get something more mainstream that's inline with what other trombonists have (I bought the Shires Bach copy, Edwards, I tested a Rath, played the Yamaha 882OR which is inspired by the 42, and the Courtois). I found that there really is no horn that feels or sounds like a 42 other than a 42.

I don't want to question your professor, they know what's best for you ultimately. It doesn't seem like you have much to go on though (example: there's a specific quality to your playing or sound that your professor wants you to address by getting a new horn). If I were you, I'd ask, "what about the 42BO do you not like?" A common complaint is they sound "stuffy," but that can be remedied by a different valve (I have a 42CO with a Thayer and gooseneck, and it sounds and plays great).

You said your professor wants you on a more "modern" horn. I am not sure what that means, as the 42 is still pretty modern. In fact, I'd go as far as saying most modern horns have their basis in the 42 in some way. Maybe your professor means a tenor with a Thayer/Axial Flow valve that has some kind of modular system. If you want, there are other valve options and modifications you can have made to your current 42. My 42 has the Bach clamp modular system from the old 42CO's (which I think is the best modular system).

[hyperbolica]

I’m a sophomore in college, and I’ve been playing on a Bach 42BO since 8th grade. My professor is recommending over the summer to invest in a more modern horn like a Shires. What’s a solid horn that I can progress to that’s similar to a Bach? I like the feel and tone of a Bach, but I want to know if there’s a horn that is more efficient with the same characteristic Bach sound.

I just want to pile on shooting down the idea that because you've played a horn since the 8th grade, it's somehow inferior to something bright and shiny. I got an 88h in 6th grade, and played it right through music school and it's still my only 547. Instruments don't lose their usefulness (unless you have some pre-1920 low-pitch horn). That 88h stacks up with ANYTHING made today. And so does your 42b, as long as it's in good condition. I actually bought a Shires a few years ago and wound up sending it back because it was no better than what I had.

You would be better off to get something that adds new capabilities, as others have already suggested. Perhaps small bore for commercial or jazz playing. Or maybe an alto. A bass maybe. Euphonium...

I wouldn't normally contradict a professor, but in this case, I think replacing a 42b with something that is essentially the same is the wrong move. Unless you're really made of money and have the very narrow interest of only ever playing 547 bore (which seems very limiting).

In hindsight, for a time I used to play 547 for everything because it was the only horn I had (when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail). If I had diversified to other types of trombones earlier, I would have had more opportunities. I'd suggest something 3B-ish (or Michael Davis Plus, if you're hung up on "modern" Shires instruments). Alto has niche application, but bass can be used almost anywhere.

I just think it's worth looking at a broader range.

[spencercarran]

My professor is recommending over the summer to invest in a more modern horn like a Shires.

Do they have a specific objection to the Bach other than it not being "modern" (whatever that means)?

I've seen music teachers (at both HS and college level) pressure students into dropping lots of money on specific brand instruments without a clear reason why the equipment already on hand is unsatisfactory, and I really think it's a huge disservice to students. If you like the feel and sound of the Bach, there's absolutely nothing wrong with continuing to play it.

[Danitrb]

Another vote for Bach. If you like your current setup there's nothing wrong with it, if you're looking for something different, but love the Bach sound and feel, you may find another setup you like better. I play both brands for different instruments and they are both professional horn definitely.

[Bach5G]

“I like the feel and tone of a Bach.”

Speaks for itself really.

[Kbiggs]

A Bach 42 is a great horn. I’ve played one most of my life, along with a 50B. I had an old Conn 8H and a King 4B that I also loved. I’ve also had a few dogs in my time. Yamaha, Jupiter/XO, and a host of other makers make great, quality horns.

The modern modular horn makers like Shires, Rath, and Edwards also make great horns that can be customized. I think of the smaller, hand-crafted horn makers like M&W and BAC as bespoke instruments, like a custom-made tailored suit.

If your prof has said you might want to look into a different horn, ask what brand or configuration they suggest. They might hear something in your playing that suggests different equipment could benefit some aspect of your playing—again, ask what they hear. Some profs really prefer one kind of instrument over another (think Eastman School during Emory Remington’s tenure), and even one configuration of a modular horn over others. It never hurts to try things out, like window shopping.

And who knows? Your prof could be right. If you buy a horn that they suggest, the prof will know that you are flexible and take instruction. That too can be important. If it doesn’t work out, you can always sell the horn after you graduate, and then go back to your Bach.

[brassmedic]

You know what horn sounds like a Bach 42? A Bach 42. Am I the only one who finds it sad that your professor would say Bach isn't a "modern" instrument? That's absurd. Of course you don't want to say that to him, but if you get a Shires to please your teacher, I would suggest keeping the Bach if you like it. You aren't always going to be studying with the same person.

[MrHCinDE]

Seems like strange advice unless your teacher has identified a specific problem with you and your equipment.

I’ve tried a few Bach 42 in the same configurations and various other configurations and liked some a lot more than others. It’s just about possible yours isn’t a great example, did your teacher have a play on it themself? If it seems a bit dead, it’s worth getting a tech to have a once over. Might be some tension in it or less than perfect joints.

If you absolutely must change something, one thing worth to try out if you get a chance to borrow one or try in a shop is an Edwards slide, they also come up quite regularly used on here. There are various options including crook shape and material and of course you can use Edwards threaded leadpipes which opens up a lot of options. I think a well dialled-in mouthpiece and leadpipe combo with a slide of your choosing can make more difference than the valve. For my personal taste I find the Edwards slide does play a little more efficiently with a favourite leadpipe than a stock Bach 42 slide with the same bell section, still has the Bach 42 sound also.

It seems unlikely that the valve/gooseneck would really be holding you back but that’s a bit of a double-standard coming from someone who bought an old straight 42 and got it converted with a ‘modern’ modular valve rather than buying a 42B (having tried plenty), partly because I didn’t love the valve.

[ithinknot]

They might hear something in your playing that suggests different equipment could benefit some aspect of your playing—again, ask what they hear.

Yes, absolutely, plus shopping is fun - try stuff, without pressure. And, as others have said, maybe there are significantly better Bachs than your specific Bach.

If you buy a horn that they suggest, the prof will know that you are flexible and take instruction. That too can be important.

Again, yes, have the conversation.

But if there aren't specified reasons, a $6k Shires is too high a price just to Show Willing. Anyone who sets up that sort of expectation is, to put it nicely, unreasonably limited in outlook. Or, you know, getting kickbacks.

[LeTromboniste]

+1 to all the responses above.

Yes, I would say, identify what you like about the horn and what you think could be better. Ask your teacher what he thinks that instrument lacks. Try many various instruments of various brands (including other 42s), from colleagues and at the stores, and note what you like and dislike about each. Come up with a clear concept of what you like in an instrument. It's okay not to be able to do that, you may not have the tools for that yet, in which case all the more reasons not to shell out a pile of money on a new instrument at this point. Have your instrument tried by professional players who can give an opinion on whether it's a good instruments and maybe whether it would benefit from improvements. It might be a very good Bach 42 that would be even better with a different valve. If that's the case, it's an investment, but it's cheaper than getting a Shires, and it will increase the value of the instrument by almost as much as you'll spent for if and when you sell it in the future (whereas the new instrument will loose a big chunk of its value when you buy it).

A Shires might be a good fit for you, maybe better than what you have now. Maybe it's not. Inherently it's not any more of a professional instrument than the 42 is. A 42 is not something you "grow out of", it's just something you might move on from because something else is a better fit for you. Not only there are plenty of professionals who "still" play 42s, there are plenty of professionals who go from Shires, "back" to a 42 or vintage horns.

[GabrielRice]

Or, you know, getting kickbacks.

There are no kickbacks. Signature model agreements do sometimes have a payment to the artist per instrument sold, but that's very different from a kickback. And the OP did not write "my teacher told me to buy their signature model."


To the OP: you're getting a lot of people questioning your teacher here. As someone who teaches students who want to be professionals, I can say I only tell them I think they need a different instrument when I think there is something wrong with the one they have. Usually that's valves that are so worn out they have trouble centering anything, and I have done it a couple of times. I can envision a case in which I might tell a student that I don't think the instrument they're playing is a good fit for the sound they're trying to make, but I haven't done that (at least not with a trombone player).

We had a student at Boston University a few years back who struggled to make a good sound on the Bach 42BO she had gotten in high school. At one point Christan Griego from Edwards came to visit and did an instrument consultation demo, using this particular student as a test subject. He listened to her play a few notes on her Bach to try to get a sense of her playing, got a puzzled look on his face, and asked her if he could play it. Then he looked even more puzzled and asked me to play a few notes on it.

There was something desperately wrong with that instrument, and it wasn't something simple like a worn spit valve cork or an easily findable leak. She got a new trombone about a week later, but in a lot of ways the damage was done; she had been struggling with this terrible Bach for so long that she was not really able to establish good habits, and I don't think she plays trombone anymore.

I'm by no means suggesting that every Bach 42BO is a terrible instrument. But before we all condemn the OP's teacher let's just suggest that the OP ask a couple more questions. Does the teacher hear something wrong that the student does not?

[brassmedic]

Or, you know, getting kickbacks.

There are no kickbacks. Signature models do sometimes have a payment to the artist per instrument sold, but that's very different from a kickback. And the OP did not write "my teacher told me to buy their signature model."


To the OP: you're getting a lot of people questioning your teacher here. As someone who teaches students who want to be professionals, I can say I only tell them I think they need a different instrument when I think there is something wrong with the one they have. Usually that's valves that are so worn out they have trouble centering anything, and I have done it a couple of times. I can envision a case in which I might tell a student that I don't think the instrument they're playing is a good fit for the sound they're trying to make, but I haven't done that (at least not with a trombone player).

We had a student at Boston University a few years back who struggled to make a good sound on the Bach 42BO she had gotten in high school. At one point Christan Griego from Edwards came to visit and did an instrument consultation demo, using this particular student as a test subject. He listened to her play a few notes on her Bach to try to get a sense of her playing, got a puzzled look on his face, and asked her if he could play it. Then he looked even more puzzled and asked me to play a few notes on it.

There was something desperately wrong with that instrument, and it wasn't something simple like a worn spit valve cork or an easily findable leak. She got a new trombone about a week later, but in a lot of ways the damage was done; she had been struggling with this terrible Bach for so long that she was not really able to establish good habits, and I don't think she plays trombone anymore.

I'm by no means suggesting that every Bach 42BO is a terrible instrument. But before we all condemn the OP's teacher let's just suggest that the OP ask a couple more questions. Does the teacher hear something wrong that the student does not?

What he wrote was, " My professor is recommending over the summer to invest in a more modern horn like a Shires.". We are not questioning whether this particular instrument might not be a good one, but rather the supposition that a Bach 42 is a less "modern" instrument (whatever that's supposed to mean).

[tbonesullivan]

I’m a sophomore in college, and I’ve been playing on a Bach 42BO since 8th grade. My professor is recommending over the summer to invest in a more modern horn like a Shires. What’s a solid horn that I can progress to that’s similar to a Bach? I like the feel and tone of a Bach, but I want to know if there’s a horn that is more efficient with the same characteristic Bach sound.

I'm not sure if you are following this thread currently, but more information is definitely needed. Like, what about your 42BO does your professor not consider "modern" or "efficient"? What do they feel that it is limiting about your playing? Have they tried your horn and found deficiencies with it? Your professor definitely would have some reasons behind this type of recommendation, and should be able to elaborate.

As you can see there are many more recent design horns both from Bach itself, and from other makers that are "Bach like", which include Getzen, Courtois, and some others. If you are going to plunk down for a custom designed Shires, Edwards, M&W, Rath, you will definitely want the specific information your professor has regarding what they feel is deficient when going into a fitting.

[JeffBone44]

I think that unless there is a series defect in your current Bach 42, there is no reason to invest in a new horn at this point in time. We need more information from the OP in order to get a better sense of the situation here. Exactly why does your professor want you to switch? Does he feel like something about your current horn is holding you back?

[Arendsdale]

I’ve played a Bach 42B since 10th grade, and I recently had the valve replaced with an Instrument Innovations/Olsen valve. The horn is almost like a new instrument. It still has the feel and characteristics of a 42B, but just enhanced in almost every way possible! Plus, this costs much less than a new horn.

[Cotboneman]

As a high school band director for 34 years I always advocated the If it Ain't Broke, Don't Fix it approach. If your Bach 42 is comfortable and does what you need it to do, there really is no need to spend a lot of money on something that ultimately may not offer that much more. Sure, if the horn is very worn, has leaks and other issues, yes it is time to look for a replacement. But I never considered telling a student to spend $4K plus on a new horn to "modernize".