Improvisation across different instruments

[knirirr]

There are quite a few interesting threads around here on improvising, but I haven't spotted anything that quite matches what I'm looking for and so I hope no-one minds a post.

My goal is to be able to perform jazz improvisation at a level suitable for amateur jam sessions and gigs, at least those encountered in my area (semi-rural England). A prerequisite is, of course, being able to play the trombone adequately, which I am working on with lessons locally as and when possible. The tuition available around here is primarily geared towards training brass band players AFAICT, but all such players I know have excellent tone and reading skills so that's worth doing (though I don't want to read treble clef so I won't play in such a band).

There's plenty of discussion here about theory, transcription, listening etc. etc., which I am already doing but in the context of the double bass. I can improvise on the bass sufficiently well for the amateur circuit and play in public regularly. I plan to keep working on this for as long as I am capable; there is certainly a vast amount more to learn. But, what I know so far doesn't appear to carry across to the trombone; what I can hear in my head comes out of the bass without too much effort, but on the trombone I am floundering once I leave the written score or basic scale. Even the likes of "Blue Bossa" or "Autumn Leaves" are elusive.

Of course, the answer is probably to spend a long time swotting scales and arpeggios, but perhaps a different approach is needed from that which I used for bass. On the bass the strings are tuned in fourths and so each interval looks the same whatever note one may be starting from, and I can have an image of it in my mind's eye which acts as a sort of linear cycle of fourths, making transposition and translating a sound to a finger movement relatively easy. I don't have any equivalent way to think about where notes are on the trombone.

There was an interesting comment here: viewtopic.php?p=162986&sid=e58c419adbc4 ... 6a#p162986

Use of alternate positions and learning to play "against the grain" to minimize slide movement while staying in whatever chord or key you're in is pretty unique to the trombone. Basically watch a few Frank Rosolino videos -- everything he does is based on lip exercises within chords as they lie in stacked, or only slightly offset positions/partials.

So, I wonder if anyone has any suggestions on how this might work, examples of exercises, or suggestions for approaches that might assist in getting closer to that stage of the sound in one's head coming out the instrument.

[soseggnchips]

You're right, intervals on the trombone are very irregular compared to the bass. There's no real shortcut, unfortunately, you just need to learn the positions. Scales and arpeggios are definitely a good way to go about it. I'd also throw in etudes, solo pieces, transcriptions etc. - the usual fundamental stuff.

The good news is (contrary to popular belief!) you don't need to be a virtuoso to improvise on trombone. Range up to the F above the bass stave and enough dexterity to play quaver scales at, say, 120BPM is plenty to get started on the likes of Autumn Leaves and Blue Bossa.

You will find it needs a different approach than the bass. If you try and play the same lines, you'll find some of them work really well and others just don't sit right at all. You'll also find some things work beautifully in one key, but become very difficult up or down a semitone. Transcribing trombone solos and learning to play along with them is a good way to get a feel for what works.

I don't think the against-the-grain (you might also see it called 'fretting') technique is going to make a huge difference. It can be very useful in its place, but it's more of an advanced technique used to facilitate certain fast passages where the slide positions allow it. It's a useful technique, but it's not a prerequisite for jazz trombone and there are plenty of great players who rarely if ever use it.

To give an example of against-the-grain in action, imagine you're playing over a Bbm7 chord. You could play a Bb minor pentatonic lick going Bb-Db-Eb-F and back down by starting in 1st, moving the slide out to 4th and then returning to 1st whilst catching the notes in 2nd and 3rd on the way. It's a bit like raking your finger through multiple strings on the bass. Really useful at times (like playing descending arpeggios across the strings) but there are lots of things it won't work for.

[knirirr]

Thanks for your comments. It's good to know that an enormous range is not needed; on a good day I can get to the Bb above the stave, but the F is usually no problem.
I suppose I'll keep on with the scales &c.; it does seem like very slow going, though. More practice getting notes to sound cleanly at the sort of tempo you mention is also needed.
Thanks also for technique example. This is something I had been trying to do when playing etudes, without realising there was a specific name for it. I wonder why it's called "fretting".

[BrassSection]

As one who improvs in church on trumpet, trombone, French horn, and euphonium, i have found scales and arpeggio practices work well for me. But beyond the basics, it’s just experience and a willingness to try something that makes it work for me. I’ll come with a new idea in my head and give it a try in practice…some times I like it and use it, other times it’s “Won’t try that one again”.

[Bach5G]

It seems to me there are two general approaches to improvisation: you can embellish the melody or outline the changes. There will be overlap between these approaches.

In a jazz guitar context, it was suggested that if you learn 200 standards (melody and changes) you’ll have no trouble improvising.

As a bass player you know how to play the changes.

[Doug Elliott]

The best advice I can give you is to play tunes by ear, and in every key. Start with fragments or individual phrases. It can be frustrating at first, but always keep track of where you are on the horn... it gets easier and better.

Then you'll be able to "play what you hear" the way you do on bass

[knirirr]

Thanks - I have been trying to play some tunes by ear, but it is rather slow going.
A surprise for me when learning trombone was that I could have the slide in the wrong position and yet the note would still be more-or-less in tune (but with poorer tone than usual) as I have corrected unconsciously. But this doesn't help with the difficult task of keeping track of where I am!

I had been thinking of playing the changes (as mentioned above) but perhaps more melodies might help...

[Sesquitone]

Actually, one way to approach improvisation (on any instrument) is to play an "embellished bass line" (in the appropriate register for that instrument). First, think of a standard "walking bass" following the chord changes--mostly quarter notes using the appropriate scale or arpeggio (including large leaps). Then vary the rhythm (syncopation, especially anticipation), repeat some notes, lengthen some, delete some (i.e. rest, and breathe), add some embellishments (above and below a given note), fill a leap with some faster scale notes and/or chromatics (duple and/or triplet feel), and so on. Start simple (an actual "walking bass" in the register). Then repeat with a few embellishments, as suggested. Then again with more variations.

Regarding intervals between available harmonics on a trombone compared with intervals between strings on a bass (or other stringed instrument), trombone intervals are indeed very "regular"--but they just get smaller as you ascend. The following ETSP Chart--Equitempered Tones (vertical axis) versus Slide Position (horizontal axis)--shows these intervals very clearly. The heavy curves sloping down to the right show available tones along each individual harmonic. These are the "strings" of the instrument--a large number of "strings", depending on your upper range, but not a very long "fingerboard" (only seven positions on each "string"). The coloured zones are bounded by chromatic scales: orange (shortest positions); blue (longest positions). The unshaded regions in between show, at a glance, where alternate positions are available. No alternates are available where the coloured regions touch. Use alternate positions freely, especially 4th and 5th positions in the octave above the bass clef. Use lip slurs between adjacent harmonics for small intervals in this register (playing "against the grain"). The dashed lines in the ETSP Chart show whole-tone intervals between adjacent harmonics; the light full lines show the corresponding semitone intervals. Note how the shape of the underlying "curves" of the whole-tone patterns are identical to the semitone "curves", shifted down an octave. More facile slide manipulation generally corresponds to regions where the dashed lines are steeper--for obvious reasons.

The second ETSP Chart shows a well-known "trick" of playing a Bb major scale entirely "against the grain" (red set of lines). [First, starting on Bb3 on the fourth harmonic, throw the slide out to 6th position with lip-slurs up to F4 on the eighth harmonic, then back down again. Once you have the feel of this (with clean slurred articulation), continue on to G4 and A4 on the ninth and tenth harmonics, landing on Bb4 on the eleventh harmonic (half-way between reference 6th and 7th positions). Then the full scale back down.] Some other possibilities (whole-tone and semitone runs) are also shown. The latter (played both tongued and slurred) are good for range building. And, of course, these can be "fretted" up or down to involve different sets of harmonics. With a little experimentation (viewing the ETSP Chart), you can discover all sorts of other "cool" runs of this type. Plus arpeggios, galore.

[knirirr]

Thanks very much for posting those diagrams - I've not seen anything like that before and I think, after I have spent a little more time looking at them, they could be very useful indeed. I think the Bb4 is as high as I can go, though.

Concerning the "embellished bassline" method of soloing, this is exactly what I've been doing. Thus, there is a temptation to be lazy and not learn heads because I can "just" use the changes and solo over anything as long as I know/can hear those (or have iReal). Perhaps learning another instrument will assist in forcing me to learn new approaches.