King 4B/5B bell taper..

[Tbarh]

Apart from different bell diameter, are these bells Made using the same mandrel? (same flare throat /bell taper)

Trond

[BGuttman]

As I understand it, no. The 5B has a more bass-like taper.

[Tbarh]

As I understand it, no. The 5B has a more bass-like taper.

Thanks!... And the 4B has a bigger taper than a 88H bell, right?

[modelerdc]

taper and terminal size aren't the same thing. The 4B bell is listed as very slightly larger in diameter than the 88H bell, but that doesn't mean that the taper is wider. without one here to measure, I doubt that the 4B bell is larger inside, it's end is just cut off at a point slightly larger than the 88H.

[TomRiker]

Does anyone know if the 4B and 5B share a tuning slide?

[Finetales]

The 4B has a normal tenor sized throat, while the 5B (as well as the Benge 165F and 190F, which use the same mandrel) has a larger throat. I'd love to know if the 5B mandrel is the same as the old 1480/1485 or not...I'm sure somebody here knows. The 1480/1485 definitely works best as a small bass, while the 5B seems better as big tenor, but that could just be the .547" F-attachment tubing in the 5B.

Curiously, while there has been some debate in the past on whether the 5B is a tenor or a bass, nobody ever thinks of the Benges as anything but tenors, even though they share the same mandrel (though cut to 8.5" and annealed) as the 5B and have the .562" attachment tubing that the 5B lacks.

[Tbarh]

The 4B has a normal tenor sized throat, while the 5B (as well as the Benge 165F and 190F, which use the same mandrel) has a larger throat. I'd love to know if the 5B mandrel is the same as the old 1480/1485 or not...I'm sure somebody here knows. The 1480/1485 definitely works best as a small bass, while the 5B seems better as big tenor, but that could just be the .547" F-attachment tubing in the 5B.

Curiously, while there has been some debate in the past on whether the 5B is a tenor or a bass, nobody ever thinks of the Benges as anything but tenors, even though they share the same mandrel (though cut to 8.5" and annealed) as the 5B and have the .562" attachment tubing that the 5B lacks.

Wow... Didnt know that the Benge shared the same bell throat size as the King 5B.. Would also be inyeresting to compare with the Bach 45 also..

[Pezza]

I use my 5B as a bass!

[Crazy4Tbone86]

The King 4B bell throat is more narrow than the Conn 8H/88H bell throat. The King 5B bell throat (same as Benge 190 and Benge 165) is larger than than the Conn 8H/88H bell throat. This makes the King 5B bell throat a couple of “steps” larger than the King 4B.

More info: The “K” option on a Conn 8H/88H bell is actually the same King 5B bell throat. “K” stands for Kofsky, former trombonist in the Cleveland Orchestra.

Even though many people think of the King 5B as a small bass trombone, it’s plumbing is actually smaller than the vast majority of the large bore tenors on the market. The bore of the F-attachment section of most large bore tenors is .562 (Bach 42, Conn 88H, Shires large bore tenors, Edwards large bore tenors, etc…..). The bore of the F attachment section of the King 4B and King 5B is .547.

What does this mean? The following models should theoretically feel larger than a King 5B because they have the same bell throat but larger plumbing on the bell section: Conn 88HK, Benge 190F and Benge 165.

[ssking2b]

You should check you bore statistics again. Standard bore on the 88H, Bach 42, Shires, et Al is .547. You can get some options with .562 as a dual bore slide, but that isn’t standard for anybody’s large bore tenor trombone.

[Matt K]

You should check you bore statistics again. Standard bore on the 88H, Bach 42, Shires, et Al is .547. You can get some options with .562 as a dual bore slide, but that isn’t standard for anybody’s large bore tenor trombone.

They're talking about the bore of the inner tubing of the F attachment, which is typically .562 for large bore horns with some notable exceptions where the F attachment tubing has the same ID as the ID of the slide tubes.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

You should check you bore statistics again. Standard bore on the 88H, Bach 42, Shires, et Al is .547. You can get some options with .562 as a dual bore slide, but that isn’t standard for anybody’s large bore tenor trombone.

They're talking about the bore of the inner tubing of the F attachment, which is typically .562 for large bore horns with some notable exceptions where the F attachment tubing has the same ID as the ID of the slide tubes.

Yes, exactly. I tried to clarify the “F-attachment bore size” in my post. Possibly I did not make that clear enough. Maybe this would have been a better way to explain:

Bach 4B - slide bore=.547, F-section bore=.562

Conn 88H - slide bore=.547, F-section bore=.562

King 4B - slide bore=.547, F-section bore=.547

King 5B - slide bore=.547, F-section bore=.547

My primary point being….. While the King 5B does have the bell with the wider throat and rim diameter (9 inches), the rest of the bell section is constructed rather small. Smaller than the majority of the large bore tenors on the market.

[Matt K]

And the tuning slide / bell throat makes such a huge difference. I had a great dependent tenor setup with a Holton 9" bell... didn't make a good bass. I could use it for smaller big band works but it really didn't cut it for for other applications. And I much prefer the bass bell I have or even the Duo Gravis that I had at the time that has a valve section that was the same tubing as the tenor I had (.562). The extra .5" at the end of the bell really doesn't make a tenor a bass in my experience.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

The extra .5" at the end of the bell gives the player a little more feedback, but it actually diffuses the sound out in the audience. So the player might think that they have this big, wonderful sound, but the audience is likely hearing a less focused sound.

[Tbarh]

And the tuning slide / bell throat makes such a huge difference. I had a great dependent tenor setup with a Holton 9" bell... didn't make a good bass. I could use it for smaller big band works but it really didn't cut it for for other applications. And I much prefer the bass bell I have or even the Duo Gravis that I had at the time that has a valve section that was the same tubing as the tenor I had (.562). The extra .5" at the end of the bell really doesn't make a tenor a bass in my experience.

Exactly,.. And as far as i know the Holton bells does not have any bigger bell throat as a 88H or a Bach 42(at least my 168 does not)

[Matt K]

Mine was pretty similar to Bach and Shires bells I've had as far as throat goes, but I didn't measure it specifically. A Shires tenor tuning slide receiver fit on it with no modification. I don't believe mine had a model number stamped on it. I picked it up New/Old Stock or something and it had never been mounted. It probably was a 168 or similar bell.

[ssking2b]

Well, all is clear now.