Why no love for the King 607F/608F?

[Burgerbob]

I have a student with a nice 607F. As far as I can tell, it's a 3B+/F with a straight bell brace and simple ferrules. It's great!! Wider, more mellow sound than my 3B/F, more open low range (larger rotor, otherwise pretty much the same construction). Tuning slides were interchangeable.

From what I hear, all the King bells were made in the same line- some just got stamped with the 6XX series at the end, some got stamped with 3B at the end.

I didn't even really know these existed until I tried his out. If you're looking for a solid .525, especially one that's cheap, check 'em out. I'm low-key looking for one now!

[Posaunus]

I've played a King 606 "student model" (0.500" bore straight tenor; ~1985 Eastlake) that I thought was very good - perhaps "professional" quality. Would not have been ashamed to play it anywhere. Better than its near-twin, a Bach TB300 - probably sample-to-sample variation.

[Bach5G]

There’s a 608F (rose brass bell) available locally. $1600 CDN.

[walldaja]

Things get labeled with little reason. Good to point out a solid performer.

[Matt K]

The 605F is pretty good too. A little different than the pro lineup but one of the smallest horns I’m aware of produced with f attachment. Mine is in need of TLC and I prefer the 3BF I have but a good 605F should definitely be on peoples radars if they want a small horn with f.

[afugate]

I have both a 3B+F and a 607F. Enjoy playing both and would be hard pressed to pick one over the other.
--Andy in OKC

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I have great admiration for the King 607/608 models. I like the way they play. Even though I believe the left hand lever/brace set up is good for students with medium to small hands, the grip is a little small for my hands. If I were to ever buy one for myself, I would need to modify the left hand area.

The 607/608 models are my #1 suggestions for students in grades 6-8, when I want them to step up to a .525 bore horn. The 607/608 models play on the smaller side of the medium bore spectrum, but they are definitely a step up for kids who are ready to play on something larger than a .500 bore horn. Again…..I think the thumb-goes-around-the-brace design is good for the younger students learning to use the thumb lever and still control the horn.

I know I am an odd-ball on this topic……but the 607/608 horns are really the only King horns that I like. I played a King 4BF in high school and college and really hit a ceiling with it in college. When I switched over to a Bach 42, it was like a dark cloud lifted off of me. The 2B, 3B and King bass trombones all play too small and tight for me. I’m not saying that they are bad….they just do not work for me.

I realize that there are a lot of King fans out there and I’m glad the King pro models work for you. Call me strange, but my enthusiasm for King trombones is limited to only the 607/608 models.

[Matt K]

I'd say that parallels my experience to a degree. As best I can tell, the 3B+ and the 607F are one of the only "big, small" horns out there. Most other medium bores are more of a large bore with something that makes it smaller, whereas the 3B+/607 are a "small bore" bell section (the 3B) with a larger slide. I've never been much a fan of the smaller kings myself, probably mostly due to just not liking smaller horns to begin with. And on the larger side, I find much the same thing with kings. I played a 6B for awhile, but I much prefer my Shires w/ Instrument Innovations rotors I have now.

[hyperbolica]

I see a lot of these for sale, so students must be using them in fairly good numbers. I've long advocated 525 over 547 for students. I probably would have picked one up by now except that I've got 2 525 horns already that I really adore (79h and 88h w/525 slide).

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I agree hyperbolica! Many of the music stores in my area push kids in 6th and 7th grade to "upgrade" to .547 bore horn. It is part of their rental-plan strategy....."If you continue to pay rental on this students instrument for five more months, you will own the instrument....OR.....you can use that equity to purchase a brand new .547 bore instrument." The problem is that these young kids do not have the lung capacity to hold a note more than 3 seconds on the big bore instruments! I have seen kids thrown into this situation many times.

[hyperbolica]

I agree hyperbolica! Many of the music stores in my area push kids in 6th and 7th grade to "upgrade" to .547 bore horn. It is part of their rental-plan strategy....."If you continue to pay rental on this students instrument for five more months, you will own the instrument....OR.....you can use that equity to purchase a brand new .547 bore instrument." The problem is that these young kids do not have the lung capacity to hold a note more than 3 seconds on the big bore instruments! I have seen kids thrown into this situation many times.

Yes, I agree. I started in I think 6th grade on an 88h, which was (and still is) a lovely instrument, but too big in bore and weight for me as an 11 year old. Even at music school, there were students and faculty using 525 bore. 40 years later I discovered the 525 slide for the 88h, along with the 79h, which made a lot of things easier.

I've also seen 608 and 609 - same horns with increasingly red bells. I'm not a King fan in general, but I'm sure these are fine horns. You also see a lot of 52h out there, which I assume is a similar grade instrument. The Bach TB200B is a 36B equivalent. They all seem to be in the $2200-2400 range new.

[spencercarran]

I think they fall into the common "intermediate" trap of being priced high enough that you sort of may as well get the "professional" model.

I'm not wild about the ergonomics of the trigger levers on Kings, but it's not like my Benge is the most comfortable instrument to hold either. If I saw a 607 pop up cheap I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it, even if only for snagging some spare parts.

+1 to everyone else's comments on the virtues of 0.525 bore instruments.

[Finetales]

To further the point that these horns are just 3B+Fs with some small differences, they are currently sold as "Legend" just like the 3B. The older 607s (no "F" in the designation) were marked as Tempo IIs. The 609F/Tempo II 609 seems to be the rarest of the bunch, though I can't figure out what the difference is vs. the 608F.

I think they fall into the common "intermediate" trap of being priced high enough that you sort of may as well get the "professional" model.

The 607/607F/608F/609F are in a unique place where the 3B+F is no longer made, and used ones don't show up for sale very often, so there is no easily attainable alternative if you want a bigger 3BF. Even the straight 3B+ isn't that common, so it's not like finding an orphaned 3B+ slide to attach to a 3BF bell section would be that easy either. And, a complete 607/7F/8F/9F would probably still be cheaper.

Plus, since they are "intermediate", used ones fly under the radar and don't go for that much. The 3BF grows on trees so you can find them for cheap, but the same isn't true of the relatively rare 3B+F, so if you want a bigger 3BF there's no reason to not grab a well-priced 607/7F/8F/9F. I'll certainly be getting one if I find one cheap enough.

[spencercarran]

Even the straight 3B+ isn't that common, so it's not like finding an orphaned 3B+ slide to attach to a 3BF bell section would be that easy either.

The tenons aren't compatible between those models anyways, right?

if you want a bigger 3BF there's no reason to not grab a well-priced 607/8/9F. I'll certainly be getting one if I find one cheap enough.

Agreed! I lucked into my Benge for cheap, which is similar enough to the Kings. If I saw a cheap enough 607/608 I'd be happy for the backup slide.

[Finetales]

The tenons aren't compatible between those models anyways, right?

Correct, you'd have to get it modified with a 3B tenon.

[hyperbolica]

I can't figure out what the difference is vs. the 608F.

I think the 607 is yellow, 608 is gold and I think 609 is red. Or thereabouts.

[Finetales]

I can't figure out what the difference is vs. the 608F.

I think the 607 is yellow, 608 is gold and I think 609 is red. Or thereabouts.

The 608F has a rose brass bell. All I can find is that the 609F is also rose brass. Could just be an older model number. When they were still called Tempo II, they were just the 607 and 609 AFAIK, with the normal student horn being the 605, so it's possible they just stuck to only odd numbers at that point.

[jorymil]

I have a 607F that I purchased years ago from DJ Kennedy and had modified to be F/Gb/G. I use it as a backup/outdoor horn for my 3B+/F that I've had modded in the same way.

It's a really solid horn, and might actually be better than my 3B+/F for very loud playing.

The bell of the 3B/F and 607F is the same part these days:

https://parts.conn-selmer.com/products/ ... 77/tm09016

and although the part numbers for the valve sections are slightly different:

https://parts.conn-selmer.com/products/ ... 7/tm09570a
https://parts.conn-selmer.com/products/ ... 2/tm09460a

the rotor itself is the same:

https://parts.conn-selmer.com/products/ ... /tm0505002

The "intermediate" branding can't have helped the horn's reputation, and since they routinely sell used for less than $500, you can replace it easily enough if lost or stolen (though that would still really suck!).

[jorymil]

Agreed! I lucked into my Benge for cheap, which is similar enough to the Kings. If I saw a cheap enough 607/608 I'd be happy for the backup slide.

I got lucky and snagged a brand-new 608 slide from Dawkes in the UK for something ridiculous like $250. Not sure if it was a glitch on their website or if they had old stock they were trying to liquidate, but it's a really good slide and not just "for the money."

[jorymil]

The tenons aren't compatible between those models anyways, right?

Correct, you'd have to get it modified with a 3B tenon.

This is on my near-future to-do list. The threading is actually the same on the slide receivers, which means you can jerry-rig a 3B slide to fit a 3B+ or 607/608 bell for temporary use. The 3B+/607/608 tenon and receiver is larger, however, so you can't go in the other direction. I have a straight 3B bell that I really like, and I'd like to have the option of playing a .525 slide on it. I'll either swap out the bell brace on the 3B bell (3B+ braces are still available) or try to figure out some sort of removable tenon setup (tenon, cork barrel, and nut are all separate, thankfully).

[quiethorn]

Anyone know or can measure the slide width on a 607F? If the slide is as wide as other .525s (like the Yamahas), I might put on my list of .525 horns to keep an eye out for.

[Burgerbob]

Anyone know or can measure the slide width on a 607F? If the slide is as wide as other .525s (like the Yamahas), I might put on my list of .525 horns to keep an eye out for.

As far as I can tell, same width as a 3B.

[ithinknot]

If you want a new one, now's the time. Some of these are just code changes for existing models, but it looks like the intermediate Kings are dunzo. Source: https://parts.conn-selmer.com/news/

You have to wonder if Burgerbob's endorsement was the final straw

sku1.png

sku2.png

[Posaunus]

If you want a new one, now's the time. Some of these are just code changes for existing models, but it looks like the intermediate Kings are dunzo. Source: https://parts.conn-selmer.com/news/

So Conn-Selmer is (finally) streamlining the product line. Somehow, I thought this was inevitable. And (probably) a good thing - for C-S, their retailers, and (perhaps) their customers.

[calcbone]

That’s interesting… if the BTB411 replaces the 607/608F, I thought that horn was .525 already…so what makes the BTB411ML qualify as “medium-large?”

[MrHCinDE]

That’s interesting… if the BTB411 replaces the 607/608F, I thought that horn was .525 already…so what makes the BTB411ML qualify as “medium-large?”

Maybe the BTB411ML is dual-bore 0.525“/0.547“ like a 52h?

Though why they would group together the large bore 52hl with the King 0.525“ horns to be replaced by one model is beyond me and seems unclear whether the BTB411 would be 0.525“ or 0.547“.

[JohnL]

BTB411: https://www.conn-selmer.com/en-us/instr ... nes/btb411
.547" bore, 8.5" bell

I don't see anything on the C-S site about the BTB411ML, but Hickey's (among others) says it's .525"/.547"
https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/tro ... outfit.php

I would not consider either to be a true successor to the King 607F/608F family, but it does make sense from a business standpoint to prune to number of different offerings.

[DougHulme]

For those contemplating the purchase of a 607 here is one for sale on ebay, really cheap.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265244449723 ... %7Ciid%3A1

The seller describes the horn as "The overall physical condition of this used instrument is Fair to Good" to be fair he does also add that its not currently playable

I'm not serious!!!... Doug

[spencercarran]

Or from a forum member here... https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=17495

I might grab it if I hadn't just put my gear budget on a tuba.

[jorymil]

Anyone know or can measure the slide width on a 607F? If the slide is as wide as other .525s (like the Yamahas), I might put on my list of .525 horns to keep an eye out for.

+/- 1/16" on these for the moment: done with my pocket tape measure, rather than calipers.
Outer width: 3 7/8"
Inner width: 2 11/16"

Definitely not as wide as the 356R I owned previously, but not too far off the mark. When my 3Bs come back from the shop, I can do another comparison. If you have more specific dimensions you're looking for (between cork barrels, for example), let me know.

[jorymil]

For those contemplating the purchase of a 607 here is one for sale on ebay, really cheap.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265244449723 ... %7Ciid%3A1

The seller describes the horn as "The overall physical condition of this used instrument is Fair to Good" to be fair he does also add that its not currently playable

I'm not serious!!!... Doug

Yeah... that seller seems to overprice their horns by $100-$200 across the board. And with those slide dents, that thing might be worth $100 tops. But Rangeley, Maine is really nice in the fall!

[quiethorn]

Anyone know or can measure the slide width on a 607F? If the slide is as wide as other .525s (like the Yamahas), I might put on my list of .525 horns to keep an eye out for.

+/- 1/16" on these for the moment: done with my pocket tape measure, rather than calipers.
Outer width: 3 7/8"
Inner width: 2 11/16"

Definitely not as wide as the 356R I owned previously, but not too far off the mark. When my 3Bs come back from the shop, I can do another comparison. If you have more specific dimensions you're looking for (between cork barrels, for example), let me know.

Okay, thanks. You could update the slide widths list here when you get some calipers on it.
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18492

It sounds like maybe another 69mm slide width, which sounds like the same as a 3B like Burgerbob guessed. The Yamaha medium-bores (356 included) look to be about 10mm wider.

[Matt K]

I don't have a 607 but I do have a 356 slide and a 3B slide. I can do a side-by-side comparison if I remember today.

[quiethorn]

I don't have a 607 but I do have a 356 slide and a 3B slide. I can do a side-by-side comparison if I remember today.

Looks like we already have the 356 and 3B on the list.
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18492

[jorymil]

Just got some new batteries for my calipers: my 90s 607 slide is 68 mm in width +/- 0.2 mm. Owing to flex of the slide tubes and the relatively shallow depth of my inside caliper blades--they're just some cheap Amazon ones, after all--that's the best I can do.

Interesting that the 607 slide is slightly narrower than the 3B slide; wonder if they're made from the same general design, and the measured inner width difference is just due to the larger tubing of the 607.

If someone with edit perms could update the list, I'd be grateful.

[jorymil]

My early 2125/3B+ (serial #897xxx, slide p/n 8096) also checks in at 68 mm.

[grcarrasco]

Wow now I want to dive into my stacks. I have a 605f, 606f, 607f , 608f. All will need a little work. When they are done I will compare and contrast with my 2b, 3b, 4b. George.

[Finetales]

Wow now I want to dive into my stacks. I have a 605f, 606f, 607f , 608f. All will need a little work. When they are done I will compare and contrast with my 2b, 3b, 4b. George.

Interesting, a 606F? I haven't seen one of those.

[ithinknot]

update the list

done

[grcarrasco]

Maybe I'm in error, I will check. This task will take awhile to complete. G.

[AFStahlecker]

Would love to see this comparison too. Been looking at a 607F Tempo II on ebay

[greenbean]

To answer the original question...

I have owned two 607F's and was disappointed by both. Maybe there were duds, but the many examples of 3B+/F's I have played could circles around the 607F's. Small sample problem? Yeah, maybe. But still... no love.

[Burgerbob]

I have played mine a fair amount now at work and a few different settings. I really like it. It's not perfect, though... Shires M2 leadpipe is going in ASAP!

[Matt K]

My 607F appears to have an unsoldered bell bead. I haven't pulled out my 3BF for comparison but I can try to remember to get it done this weekend to see if I notice any other differences. The other, obvious, difference is the all yellow construction on the slide rather than the nickel outers. I'm going a slightly different route on my 607 than Aiden and putting on a nickel crook and a 500 upper. Probably a 32H replica pipe in yellow brass is what I'll settle on for pipe.

[TrombaLeese]

Thank you for your comment on the King 607 as I'm planning to buy one.

[ryebrye]

My 607F appears to have an unsoldered bell bead. I haven't pulled out my 3BF for comparison but I can try to remember to get it done this weekend to see if I notice any other differences. The other, obvious, difference is the all yellow construction on the slide rather than the nickel outers. I'm going a slightly different route on my 607 than Aiden and putting on a nickel crook and a 500 upper. Probably a 32H replica pipe in yellow brass is what I'll settle on for pipe.

I know the difference between soldered and unsoldered bell beads is relatively small, but it is amazing how hard it is to find specs on trombones that tell you much about the bell construction other than the high level custom ones.

I understand that most people don't care - but it's similar to other things like consumer electronics etc where they could at least list off all of the specs and materials in a table you could ignore if you don't care about it.

It's even more confusing when people like Conn come out with their 88HNV and they are clearly trying to recreate their Elkhart era 88H's but they are now soldered instead of unsoldered.

To most people it's low on their list and probably just gets buried into the overall feel of the horn whether it works for them or not - but it would be nice if manufacturers would publicly state if it's soldered or not.

Bell construction I think is safe to assume two piece unless they say otherwise - but soldered vs unsoldered bells is the one quirky one they don't seem to think anyone cares about.

[Matt K]

I did end up going through with the project. Mine has a Getzen 3508Y bell, a 500 upper and a nickel MK drawing crook and the 32H pipe in it. Plays like a dream! Not that it’s very fair to call it a 607 at this point given that 30% of it isn’t original

[Finetales]

The thing with the 607 line is at some point they changed the leadpipe. I don't know exactly when, but I'm guessing it's when they changed the model names from 607/609 to 607F/608F. The early ones are straight up 3BFs with a straight bell brace and a .525 slide...the later ones are hamstrung with a terrible student-grade leadpipe. For the later 607F/608F with the bad leadpipe, a leadpipe swap is necessary to get the horn out of the doldrums. For the earlier 607/609 with the 3B-style leadpipe, no mods necessary; it plays just like a bigger 3BF stock.

Mine has a Getzen 3508Y bell, a 500 upper and a nickel MK drawing crook and the 32H pipe in it. Plays like a dream!

Now that is something I'd love to try!

[Burgerbob]

Yes, I should chime in that I sold my 607F to Finetales and picked up a 608F for very cheap. It was in great shape except that it played very, very badly. It turns out the leadpipe in these more modern offerings is probably smaller at the venturi than the 3B leadpipe.

But... of course, there's a rub, and you can't just pull them and put in whatever you want. The two-piece leadpipes are also integral to the slide assembly. I had mine built with an Instrument Innovations receiver and it works now, but required a total rejiggering of the slide and cutting down of the tuning slide to make up for extra length.

It plays great, but it's not a perfect fix either.

[walldaja]

The 607 leadpipe is tight, I can't get a swab weight thru but fits thru my 0.500 bore Bach just fine. Glad I got mine.