Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

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ArbanRubank
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by ArbanRubank »

The ones who suck at it have never practiced it. We really shouldn't expect to be good at something we don't practice at on any level. I've been practicing it for a couple of months now. I suck a little less at it.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by FOSSIL »

I've been working at it for a year now and I'm without doubt better....whether that equates to publicly better is another matter🙄🙄 but even if I never play an improvised note in public it has been well worth it . I have developed my listening skills and can hear everything in the backing band so much more clearly and am able to get out through the bell, what is in my head... the quality of that thought is not for me to judge but it is at least mine and aural awareness is a good skill to develop. I could improvise before this but not as intuitively or as comfortably as now.
I understand improvisation better and understand improvisers better and that has been a lockdown positive for me.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by Doug Elliott »

:good: :good: :good: :good: :good:
:clever: :clever: :clever: :clever: :clever:
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by PaulTdot »

That sound fantastic! Non-beginner/non-children who start improvising are really interesting to observe and study. I have a lot of tools I use when I teach improvisation to classical musicians (something I've done a fair bit), so it's a topic of great interest to me. I'd love to hear how you approached it - if you developed your awareness and ears to that extent, you must have been doing something right!
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

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FOSSIL wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:19 am I've been working at it for a year now and I'm without doubt better....whether that equates to publicly better is another matter🙄🙄 but even if I never play an improvised note in public it has been well worth it . I have developed my listening skills and can hear everything in the backing band so much more clearly and am able to get out through the bell, what is in my head... the quality of that thought is not for me to judge but it is at least mine and aural awareness is a good skill to develop. I could improvise before this but not as intuitively or as comfortably as now.
I understand improvisation better and understand improvisers better and that has been a lockdown positive for me.
Chris
Respekt! :good:

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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

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PaulTdot wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:31 am That sound fantastic! Non-beginner/non-children who start improvising are really interesting to observe and study. I have a lot of tools I use when I teach improvisation to classical musicians (something I've done a fair bit), so it's a topic of great interest to me. I'd love to hear how you approached it - if you developed your awareness and ears to that extent, you must have been doing something right!
Well, I started out with my scales and technique and experience, but also with a lifelong focus on written notation to hold me back... basically, backing tracks and doing and listening....a lot of doing every day. Like everything in music, practise is central. Sonic information in, playing out....you just have to do a LOT of playing, and be patient but persistent. Putting a priority on non written playing is like entering a different world but in a good way. I have found the whole experience very positive and beneficial to my general playing. More than anything, it's been fun !!

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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

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Wonderful! Good for you. I dig that!
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

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Grah wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:05 pm ...I would also recommend that you get the Band-in-a-Box software, so that you can practice at home with a good rhythm section and listen to their jazz improvisers...
I have been wondering why sometimes chord notes I play don't work very well with a BiaB accompaniment. Apparently, there is a setting in preferences where BiaB will either play the chord as notated, or modify it on-the-fly for a jazz style. For instance, if a chord is notated as a C7, it might get interpreted by BiaB as a C9 or C13. So it may be wise to set the preference for BiaB to play the chord as notated and I believe they refer to that as "natural"!
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by baileyman »

That's funny. Guys used to lean over to the piano and say, "Just give me the plain chords." All those extensions take up your space. Dave McKenna was brilliant at that.

Here's an exercise, if interested:

Do ii7 V7 IM in this way. Eb is easy to illustrate. In quarters,
F Ab C Eb | D Bb Ab F | Eb Eb Eb Eb | (maybe rest) |

Cycle through until it's fully in you. Then go around the circle, Ab, Db, Gb, etc. back to Eb. Go around again and again.

Listen for additional notes to play above and below the pattern but still getting back to IM. Find ways to move the notes higher and lower with the same chord sound result. Eventually all sorts of chromatic notes will suggest themselves. It takes time to hear. Months. You may find some of these notes becoming iii7 VI7 instead of IM, then it turns around to go again. Go around again and again.

Expand your horizons, after a good long while, and brick some other small patterns the same way. Pretty soon it all adds up.

Oh, and make those quarters swing.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by ArbanRubank »

LOL! That's why I like pop tunes written by someone who isn't a big-time, big-name composer. The chords are simple! If I can't ad lib my way through Amy Winehouse's "Back To Black", then I must be having an exceedingly bad day. She could sing, but could only play the guitar this side of just a little bit.

Ad lib! I wonder what - if any - is the dif between that term and "improv". My instructor tells me (I love this guy) that I play an obbligato part to my music. Grrrrrr.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by baileyman »

The point I should state more clearly.

This note sequence F Ab C Eb | D Bb Ab F | Eb is really a melody. You get it in your head. From every starting note. Then after a while you hear differences that "rhyme" with it. Then when it's time to play, you may hear the rhymes and you're on your way.

Prolly works just the same on Amy Winehouse.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by ArbanRubank »

Thanks! I should have responded to this progression you posted earlier. Sorry. Yes, that is a nice progression and it makes a melody. Someone stated once that if we are stuck for melody notes in a song improv attempt, chord notes will suffice nicely. I like to use scale notes in-between chords if the chords are easy enough and the tempo is slow.

That's a pretty standard progression, so it ought to work in any key. For practice, we could put one chord in a measure, or one chord for multiple measures, with lots of combinations.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by Bach5G »

“This note sequence F Ab C Eb | D Bb Ab F | Eb is really a melody.”

ii7 - V7 (Fm7 - Bb7).
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by grafemberg »

ExZacLee wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:48 am ...a visit to the repair store lead to the discovery of a massive obstruction in my leadpipe (a pencil) and the horn got easier.
A PENCIL!?!
LOL

to answer the topic I 'd say we have to think different because we can't hide in a note swarm
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

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grafemberg wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:24 am to answer the topic I 'd say we have to think different because we can't hide in a note swarm
True that!

I have found the Charlie Parker method - as I rudimentarily understand it - a bit useful. In the PBS special "Jazz", it was mentioned that he used scale notes to navigate between chord notes, always resolving into the chord.

Two outstanding trombone players remarked once: "I can't play melodically, so I play fast". The other said, "I can't play fast, so I play melodically".
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

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Yeah, that's solid.

I remember it being a bit of a light bulb moment for me when I was reading the Miles Davis autobiography, and he talks about "learning to play the chords" rather than the typical "learn the scales" approach we tend to see in improvisation instruction these days.

Another light bulb moment was learning that great players, when they play "fast", are also playing just as melodically as ever. Take a blistering 32nd-note run played by Charlie Parker, slow it down, and see just how powerfully melodic it is.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by Bach5G »

Yes, but which chords and which “in between” notes?
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

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Bach5G wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:03 am Yes, but which chords and which “in between” notes?
The right ones
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by ArbanRubank »

Try playing the same songs over and over again for a few months. That's what they do. No wonder they get good at it.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

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Yeah, Doug's got it.

The "right" chords are the chords of the tune, usually. The "right" in-between notes are generally going to be diatonic to the key (that's a good easy starting point), but jazz musicians will also use a variety of chromaticism and other devices to navigate from chord tone to chord tone. I have a variety of exercises I do with my students around this kind of practice, and the rest is listening and imitation.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

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PaulTdot wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:52 am Yeah, that's solid.

I remember it being a bit of a light bulb moment for me when I was reading the Miles Davis autobiography, and he talks about "learning to play the chords" rather than the typical "learn the scales" approach we tend to see in improvisation instruction these days.

Another light bulb moment was learning that great players, when they play "fast", are also playing just as melodically as ever. Take a blistering 32nd-note run played by Charlie Parker, slow it down, and see just how powerfully melodic it is.
I'm not wishing to seem like a smarty-pants, but I do believe it is how broadly you wish to define the term "melodic". When I listen to Charlie Parker's "Bird" album, I don't hear out-of-tune notes, in relationship to the composition. And yet I have a very difficult time keeping the true melody line running through my head as he improvs off it. So either I need more training or he needed to stick a little closer to the actual melody (lol). So then, what exactly IS "melodic"? One definition is "pleasant sounding". By that standard, Charlie Parker was melodious, even when he didn't stick to the melody - - and it sounds contradictory, but that's jazz!

Edit: If someone is said to be a "melodic" player, then that just really means they don't hit "sour" or weird-sounding notes. However, if one states that they play more melodically than someone else, then I believe they mean they stick closer to the actual melody line and the more someone deviates from the true melody line, the less "melodic" they are playing. So there are a few different ways to look at it.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

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I invite you to investigate for yourself. :)

It's not easy to define what is a "good melody", but lots of theorists have tried. Voice leading, interval structure, balance of consonance and dissonance, motivic incorporation, thematic development, use of the Golden Mean, and so forth. You'll find a lot of these elements in the playing of the great jazz improvisers, no matter what tempo they're playing.

For whatever your standard of a good melody, transcribe some melodies played by great jazz musicians - perhaps Parker or Clifford Brown or Artie Shaw - and see if they satisfy those standards. You might be surprised... very surprised. I once transcribed a running 8th-note melody improvisation over a simplified rhythm changes progression by Hank Mobley, and, to this day, playing through it slowly gives me the same kind of melodic appreciation and thrill (oh, the voice leading! glorious) as any masterpiece by Bach.

(And it's basically because once you develop your melodic tools, you don't - can't - simply "throw them out the window" when playing at a faster tempo. A musician like that has the same sense of melody and the same standards they set for themselves, as well as the same technical devices they have practiced, regardless of the performance situation. Practice beautiful melodies slowly, and when you play at a faster tempo, you'll still be drawn to the same melodic tools, both by your ear and by your muscle memory.)
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

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ArbanRubank wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:26 am I have found the Charlie Parker method - as I rudimentarily understand it - a bit useful. In the PBS special "Jazz", it was mentioned that he used scale notes to navigate between chord notes, always resolving into the chord.
Bach5G wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:03 am Yes, but which chords and which “in between” notes?
I presume it's the chords that either the composer or the arranger used in the piece. Or else it becomes the chords the lead player (keyboard, guitar, etc) is playing in the moment - which you may not see on the page because either there is no page or they aren't marked in on your part (usually).

Any note "in-between" any two chord notes within a chord or in-between the ending and beginning notes of adjacent chords - if they are being played laterally, or otherwise in-between stacked chord notes from one chord to the next, is how I interpreted it.

I have found that it is useful but not drop-dead imperative to have access to those chords. Someone with a nicely trained ear can determine which notes will sound good, even if he can't exactly alphanumerically identify the chords he is hearing.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by Bach5G »

Hmmmmm.

Gershwin’s original changes to the bridge of I Got Rhythm are:

D7 | G7 | C7 | F7 |

I have a list of 25 different versions of the bridge.

Which is the “right” one?
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by ArbanRubank »

The one you deem at the moment.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by ArbanRubank »

PaulTdot wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:32 pm I invite you to investigate for yourself. :)

It's not easy to define what is a "good melody", but lots of theorists have tried. Voice leading, interval structure, balance of consonance and dissonance, motivic incorporation, thematic development, use of the Golden Mean, and so forth. You'll find a lot of these elements in the playing of the great jazz improvisers, no matter what tempo they're playing.

For whatever your standard of a good melody, transcribe some melodies played by great jazz musicians - perhaps Parker or Clifford Brown or Artie Shaw - and see if they satisfy those standards. You might be surprised... very surprised. I once transcribed a running 8th-note melody improvisation over a simplified rhythm changes progression by Hank Mobley, and, to this day, playing through it slowly gives me the same kind of melodic appreciation and thrill (oh, the voice leading! glorious) as any masterpiece by Bach.

(And it's basically because once you develop your melodic tools, you don't - can't - simply "throw them out the window" when playing at a faster tempo. A musician like that has the same sense of melody and the same standards they set for themselves, as well as the same technical devices they have practiced, regardless of the performance situation. Practice beautiful melodies slowly, and when you play at a faster tempo, you'll still be drawn to the same melodic tools, both by your ear and by your muscle memory.)
Thanks. That's what I've been doing a while now, investigating via listening and playing. I acquired the top 10 (by sales) jazz albums of all time. I'm listening and trying to determine why they have been deemed so great. That Miles Davis "Kind Of Blue"!!!

I've done my share of transcriptions. They are tedious for me to do and sometimes quite odd. Sometimes some notes seem to defy transcription. I think maybe they were "mistake" notes that were lipped into tune. I also think some were purposely lipped sharp of flat. Then there seems to be places where all the notes from everyone on a given phrase lie in-between intervals - as though the producer slowed the tape down momentarily for a desired effect. Whew! The things I have run into transcribing. And sometimes I can only approximate note values. So on those transcribed charts, I have written a note to self. "Self, the pitches are good. Ad lib the note durations and put them in sync with the backing". After all, printed notes are just a guide; roadmap if you will.

Per my listening to Diana Krall, I do like to slow some melodies down. Interesting how a typical pop tune can be turned into a sappy, sentimental ballad! The thing I want to avoid is taking a cheerful song and turning it into a dirge - the way the Lennon Sisters used to do on the Lawrence Welk show! :shuffle:

Another interesting thing to do is to give a song a Bossa style.

I previewed TomPlay (I think). It's nice, but I'm not a fan of Karaoke playing and that's basically what it is. With my backing software running, I will sometimes abandon the melody line altogether and just improv off the chords if I think I can get away with it. For my money, a song is well composed if the melody line leaps out of the chord changes.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

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So how's everybody doing at this task?

I'm finding it hard NOT to embellish or improvise off a melody line! Lol. I feel a little like Kirk Douglas in "Young Man With A Horn", sitting there taking off in places where maybe he shouldn't and getting kicked out of the group for it. Nice problem to have, I think.

I have also found I tend to do better when I do two things:

1) Modulate the piece into a key into which I can feel the music better

2) Keep the chords simplified (for now)

3) Play with either a bucket or a Harmon mute. I don't know why, but it just feels more jazzy - a Dizzy Gillespie kinda thing, I guess.

Oops. Three things.

Anyway, I hope everyone is still at this and doing well, or at least having fun, if nothing else.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

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RIP to those who find this just isn't for them. :weep: You tried!
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by SackbuttRobert »

When I switched to sackbut, I found it easier to improvise. First, there's the melody, counter melody that you are always playing. I started with embellishments. Of course, I can only improvise in Early Music genres. Which leads me to my peak improvisation moment (or half a day). I was working a Renaissance Faire in LA (the original). My band was usually three tenor sackbuts, a cornetto and an alto shawm. The cornetto player insisted he keep all of the music and I was stupid enough to agree (keeping people happy is pretty hard). One day, the two other sackbut players couldn't make it so they hired a ringer who played jazz but never Renaissance music. The cornettist's car broke down (this is 1986 so no cell phones). We waited and waited, but then we had to go on (playing in a tower above the main gate).

So, we improvised the whole set based on melodies that I or the alto shawm player knew. We would start in a slow 4 and play for a while, single to hold for a chord and then play the same melody in a fast 3. Or we would start in 3 and switch to 4 and then go back again to the original-ish version. It was a blast and we then added an improvised piece to our regular set. It was a definite plus that our audience had no idea what we were supposed to sound like. I did find that I naturally went minor. I guess it was easier to go down than up. The only comment was that our music sounded sadder. I am sure it was the most memorable gig for the jazz trombonist.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by griffinben »

Reading this, I see three threads that I agree with that deserve to be connected:

1.) It's more difficult to play on a technical, seemingly virtuosic level on the trombone compared to some other instruments.
2.) Improvisation is about creation and hearing more than you did the day before (Thanks, Doug. I love this.).
3.) You learn vocabulary by listening to masters.

Because the trombone presents a unique set of technical challenges, it requires a unique and creative set of solutions. Part of the reason trombone players "suck" at improvising is that they are taught in the same cookie-cutter manner as other instruments. While there is much to the foundational knowledge that applies directly to the trombone (and all instruments), the execution cannot and should not be expected to be the same.

Creativity is the solution. You do not need a technically virtuosic level akin to a saxophone player to be an effective improviser in the same setting.

Looking to trombone masters is one way to illuminate possible pathways. Different artists have chosen different paths, based on their ideas, creativity, and hard work. They find their voice and develop it. They develop different aspects of virtuosity - sound, articulation, storytelling, rhythm, time feel. These are creatively virtuosic goals that are achievable on the trombone.

For better or worse, this is not the face of entry-level jazz education. Hell, I experienced the same cookie-cutter mentality at one of our premier jazz conservatories from most of my non-trombone instructors. Learn scales, chords, arpeggios, forms, patterns, etc. Those things are important, but they are the tools you use to build the house - they aren't the creative architecture or storyline.

This is a subject close to my heart, because I HATE being passed up for solos in a band setting because the assumption is that I have trombone and therefore I suck at improvising. I came to creativity through a lot of work on technique and emulating the masters. I came to creativity through the back door. (The creatives grabbed my ear the most.)

Until we change focus, trombonist will face the same difficulties they currently do.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also want to address the fallacy of ease as relates to saxophone's technical superiority. it is easy to gain an approximation of technical virtuosity (just push the buttons). True mastery in time, idea development, tone, creativity, innovation, etc. requires the same discipline as any other instrument. While they do not have to deal with the technical stressors of playing an asymmetrical instrument like the trombone, they still need to do more to push buttons to be true masters. Not hearing the difference is in the ears of the listener.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by Bach5G »

One could do worse than memorize a bunch of Steve Davis solos.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by soseggnchips »

I think part of the issue is that 'sucking' is a phase you have to go through - you're learning to internalise sounds and working out what works and sounds good in a given context, largely through trial and error. That means, by definition you're going to spend a lot of time playing stuff that sounds bad.

We all sounded bad when we first learned to play the instrument. But, most of us were children, and if we even realised how bad we sounded it didn't matter, because so did all our peers - it was normal. Generally, people learn to improvise when they're a bit older and they can already play. If you're already a decent player, it's embarrassing and frustrating to sound bad when you improvise - it's upsetting because it's not consistent with where you are as a player, and it makes it hard to perservere through the 'suck' phase.

I'd wouldn't claim to be a particularly strong improviser, but I was fortunate at a young age to play in a group for beginning improvisers. We all sounded bad, so there was no stigma attached - we just got plenty of face-time blowing solos and slowly got to the point were we could play some 'right' notes and sucked a bit less.

Ideally, you'd get students playing by ear and improvising as early as possible - as soon as they play their first notes, alongside learning to read. That way, they'd build far more experience and could get the 'suck' phase out of the way nice and early. That's how folk musicians, rock and pop musicians, etc. learn and they all seem to manage just fine. Unfortunately the expectation for band/orchestra instruments like the trombone is that reading and technique are top priority and everything else is a 'nice to have'.

At the risk of going on a rant, I do think the typical approach to learning jazz improvisation is deeply unhelpful. Everyone describes jazz as a language. We don't teach babies to speak by sitting them in the corner with a dictionary and the rules of grammar, but that's exactly how we expect people to learn jazz with the 'theory-first' approach that's commonly used. Much better to pick a few notes of a chord and learn to really hear/feel what they sound like so you can start to build melodies out of them.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by ArbanRubank »

For practice, I'll cue up an old standard with the following format:

First time through, I'll stick with the melody line and try to play it as pretty as possible. But while I'm doing that, I am studying the melody line with it's chords and thinking about what I actually would do if it were my turn at a solo.

The second time through, I'll try to develop some of the ideas I had when I played through it the first time.

The third time through, I'll try to expand upon what I learned the first two times and see how far I can take it without squawking. In any case, I usually try to re-state the last phrase of the melody line clearly and then give it a little tag at the very end.

All the while, I am keeping in mind that this is real, so I don't want to go too much outside of what I can do.

Something I learn in the process is that the more times I play through a ballad, the further I can go. When I hear JJ or somebody with all of their brilliance, I also keep in mind that this probably isn't the very first time they have played that ballad! Most likely, they have spent a LOT of time in practice working out their ideas. Charlie Parker sure did! I believe a lot of what we hear on albums and think - wow - nice improve - is actually a lot of quasi-memorization - or at least total familiarization of a song that has gotten to be an old friend. My instructor once told me that after I have played through my repertoire enough times, it's hard NOT to get good at taking off on it. If it's a ballad I have played through enough times, sometimes I'll just let the melody go and try to come up with an alternate melody, based on the pulse of the original melody line and it's underlying chord structure.

Anyway, for most of us, it's a process. I think we can all agree upon that.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by baileyman »

Ben mentioned the "asymmetric instrument", and that seems to be a lot of the difficulty.

Typical exercises assume equal ease around the horn, jazz pattern books, Arban, etc. And if you don't have equal ease, you're supposed to get it!

Unequal ease means that the performance envelop of the horn changes depending on the nature of what you intend to play. Some stuff just doesn't work. And maybe even if it can be made to work, it's awkward. Fontana said "if it looks awkward, it probably sounds awkward, too".

I'm astonished by how much some players have stretched their performance envelope. Gleaning a few ideas from them seems like a great way to increase the ease. But whatever one finds, there remains an attitude necessary, to mentally compose only those things that match the easy part of the envelope.

Here's one exercise that seems to help, based on "the nearest next note" idea. Take any three adjacent partials and any three adjacent positions. Then play all possible linear combinations. A favorite way to do this is going around in a circle through the note in the middle. Like this:

Partials 6 5 4, positions 1 2 3, then something like

Db (pickup on and gets the start off the beat)
Bb Db Eb Db
D Db C Db
F Db Ab Db
E Db A Db
Db Db Bb Db
C Db D Db
Ab Db F Db
A Db E Db
Bb Db (ending like this takes the rhythm off the beat)

Anyway, what it does is put lots of notes next to each other in ways that might not otherwise show up, and may reduce what seems like an inhibition at moving the slide and chops combination to something that is within the easy envelope, in this case where one is already on Db. The nearest next note you want may be one of those surrounding eight. You know, like the pattern book or your ear may say you need to hit F# in 5 like E F# A where the nearest next note could better be G# like E G# A with similar sense. Lots can be done within a one-position shift.

(Yes, I know this misses the combinations along the edge!)
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by PaulTdot »

It's very true:

A lot of musicians - and, often, trombonists - only try to learn to improvise later, and expect it to sound good, despite being a beginner. That's a blow to the ego, and stops a lot of people from feeling free enough to actually experiment and learn. It turns into an attitude, instead: "I'm not good at improvising. I'm good at reading music." It's an easy attitude to take on, which keeps you from confronting your own limitations, kind of like one of those asshats who approach a pretty girl, and, when rebuffed, walk away, saying, "I never liked you, anyway!"

Ideally, you should be learning to improvise at the same time as you're learning your instrument. You can build a strong connection by doing so, and develop improvisation and technique at the same time. I noticed a very big difference in music school between players who started learning to play jazz and improvise at a young age and players who went through a different school system, where they didn't start learning to improvise until the late teens. (The latter group had a solid foundation in technique, chops, etc, but really struggled to sound natural as improvisers. Many gave up before they "got good".)

Having said that, you don't HAVE to sound bad as an improviser when you're starting out. One of the advantages of improvisation is that you get to CHOOSE what material to play, and, if you wish, you can take a very conservative/safe approach, playing only things you know you can reach for, and that you know sound good.

* A great way to learn to improvise is to really learn a melody, inside and out (as ArbanRubank says, above). Play it from memory, sing it, listen to a million different recordings. Then start playing the melody, over and over, until bits of bore you. Then start changing it up, adding ornaments, leaving parts out, adding inflections, etc. Do this enough and you can be a really confident and great-sounding improvisor on that tune, without ever "sounding bad". You might not sound like some of your favourite players (who play more "vertically"), but you'll sound good and people (especially more mature musicians) will love hearing that your improvisation always hearkens back to the melody.

* It's also possible to learn to improvise with techniques that "always sound good". You just have to be diligent and methodical. I teach a lot of classical musicians improvisation, and if they seem to need this approach, that's what we do - I have a whole raft of techniques for teaching this way, and they work. I have a colleague who's done this in the school system, as well: I came in once to coach his 8th grade class, and was quite stunned! A group of kids, beginners on their instrument, just learning to play. And yet almost every single kid could play through a blues progression while nailing every chord change. Very cool! So, it can be done, and that's what I'll often do with older students or classical musicians who have a low tolerance for "learning by trial and error" or "sounding bad" and need systematic practice which sounds good from the start.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by Pre59 »

To aid facility I think that we have to break with the idea of "positions" and "alternate positions" and treat them the same. The end goal being to know where all of the notes are, in all of the positions, all of the time. As starting points go it may seem unreasonable, but it's not uncommon among other instruments.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by Savio »

Do trombonist suck at improvising? I think not. My thoughts is when saxophone players try to play as many fast notes in shortest amount of time, they sucks... When trumpet players try to do the same but in the high screaming register they love...it sucks.

On the other hand, when J.J. Johnson, Urbie Green, Bill Watrous improvise, it's just right. It's not that fast or high, it's just the right notes in right time in a much more musical way.

I think most trombone players do it more interesting.

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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by ArbanRubank »

Some very insightful and thought-provoking comments! Definitely worth re-reading for inspiration.

I'm moving forward in my quest. I am now finding places in ballads that seem to cry out for a bit of ad-lib double-tonguing, using PaulTdot's "always sound good" approach. As I gain confidence and ability, my "performance envelope" that baileyman mentioned increases. So my goal is to "always sound good" at an increasingly higher "performance envelope".

Re-listening to JJ, one thing really pops out. It's his precise articulation. That guy hardly ever missed a note! He must of had one heck of a sense of pitch in his head. Kai, as well.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by Doug Elliott »

"Re-listening to JJ, one thing really pops out. It's his precise articulation."

And yet, so many players take a sloppy approach to playing jazz, somehow thinking that's part of the style.

Kinda like big band players who constantly play behind and justify it by calling it "laying back."

Nope. Listen again, more carefully this time.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by Savio »

Doug Elliott wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 8:18 am "Re-listening to JJ, one thing really pops out. It's his precise articulation."

And yet, so many players take a sloppy approach to playing jazz, somehow thinking that's part of the style.

Kinda like big band players who constantly play behind and justify it by calling it "laying back."

Nope. Listen again, more carefully this time.
I think I’m a sinner there. I try to learn from George Roberts. It’s nearly scary how accurate his timing is. Also intonation. And it sounds so easy when listening him. Anyway it’s a goal to try stretch towards.

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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by ArbanRubank »

Me too. Leif!

Unfortunately, since the kind of instrumental music we like has died, there really aren't many current artists to look to for inspiration. So what I try to do is to listen to the older trombone masters - like GR - as well as accomplished performers on other instruments and vocalists as well and try to use them as inspiration for the music of MY time.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by PaulTdot »

Is that so? Pandemic notwithstanding, I feel like I see so many exceptional young brass players and trombonists all around - far more than I remember when I was in school. But perhaps that's not the case where you are!
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by SuperslickRick »

I more or less completely agree with OP. Sax players got me interested in improvising, and from a language standpoint, I’m way more influenced by trumpet and sax players in the way I play. My favorite trombone players also come from that sound as well, like Hal Crook, Elliot Mason, Corey Wilcox, Isaac Smith etc. They all sound like improvisers playing the trombone, not trombone players improvising, ya know what I mean?

That being said, don’t get me wrong, I obviously l love the greats and their playing and the tradition of the instrument; Curtis Fuller on Blue Train made me realize the role trombone was capable of filling, but at the same time it was Coltrane and Mark Turner and Woody Shaw and Miles that really really blew my mind and made me want to learn how to improvise.

In my experience, there are parts of the trombone community that can be pretty close-minded when it comes to more contemporary aspects of improvisation and tend to write off anything post-1968 or faster than an 1/8th note as “unmusical.” I love the tradition too, obviously, and it’s important to learn how to sound like JJ, Slide, etc, but it’s wrong to look down on those that don’t try to emulate that. There are so many trombone players that are pushing the instrument forward and can definitely hang with any sax/trumpet/piano player, but at the same time its usually these self-proclaimed “traditionalists” I hear complain about not getting called ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by ArbanRubank »

PaulTdot wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:17 am Is that so? Pandemic notwithstanding, I feel like I see so many exceptional young brass players and trombonists all around - far more than I remember when I was in school. But perhaps that's not the case where you are!
Who are they and where can I buy their solo albums?
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by SuperslickRick »

ArbanRubank wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 7:30 pm
PaulTdot wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:17 am Is that so? Pandemic notwithstanding, I feel like I see so many exceptional young brass players and trombonists all around - far more than I remember when I was in school. But perhaps that's not the case where you are!
Who are they and where can I buy their solo albums?

Kalia Vandever - In Bloom
Brandon Lin - Affection / Promise
Jimmy O’Connell - Arrhythmia
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by Bach5G »

Jimmy O’Connell

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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by ArbanRubank »

Thanks guys. Nice to know there are some up & coming promising trombone artists - as shown on YouTube, etc. However, it seems they are not on vinyl - yet. If you are not on vinyl, you haven't arrived, IMHO. Heck, even Adelle - who would sing at a cat fight - is on vinyl! I wish Max Seigel would put his work on vinyl. He's terrific. I like vinyl, in case you are wondering.

Thanks again!
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by PaulTdot »

It depends what you mean by "young" - the real youngsters aren't widely recorded yet, but are (or were) doing great work in local clubs or in school.

But here are some names you could take a look at, in the 16 to 35-40 range (I tried to find a real variety of clips in different styles, and short, for modern attention spans ;) ) - all distinctive and highly competent improvisors. Perhaps this list will inspire someone to do some more practicing! (I know it does, for me.)

Rita Payes - e.g.
Robert Edwards - e.g.
Ido Meshulam - e.g.
Shannon Barnett - e.g.
Jon Hatamiya - e.g. - has some good recent recordings out
Coleman Hughes - e.g. (a high school audition video! he's more active as a philosophical/political commentator now, but still does some playing)
Corey Wilcox - e.g.
Emily Asher - https://jazzlives.wordpress.com/2020/10 ... -a-window/
Javier Nero -
Michael Dease - (he was 25ish when he recorded this)
Trombone Shorty -
Aubrey Logan -
Natalie Cressman -
Nick Finzer - https://downbeat.com/news/detail/outsid ... directions
Samuel Blaser -

Samuel Blaser is quite remarkable, in that he might be the only jazz trombonist in the world right now (or maybe ever?) who makes a living just playing as a soloist, generally fronting trios and quartets.

Slightly older players, but still early in their careers, with some killer albums released as long as 10-15 years ago (when they were in their 20's), all really worth checking out:

Ryan Keberle
Jacob Garchik
Marshall Gilkes
Carol Jarvis
Andy Hunter (some nice short clips:
Elliot Mason

And this is just off the top of my head! There are lots of great players in Europe, too, like Felix Fromm or Nils Wogram.
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by ArbanRubank »

Asked for and received! Somebody has a little library of YouTube vids! I guess YouTube is the new vinyl for most (sigh). I'm still buying vinyl when I can find still-sealed or NM of various trombone artists at a decent price. Love it when I read an eBay listing as selling dad's vinyl collection that has been in storage for many, many years. Sorry for their loss, though.

I have your links copied and pasted into my FB as a private post so only I can see it and where I can easily access them for viewing.

I've started to take off on this improv thing. I doubt I'll ever be able to play as complicated as some truly talented and practiced guys, but I'm not sucking much any more, at least. It appears to be a cumulative thing. IOW's the more I learn, the more I hear and the more I hear, the more I learn.

I suppose this thread will die again as bands start back up and guys get re-contented to perform as section players. We'll then probably see a lot more equipment threads. But maybe some of the guys who gave this improv thing a try will see the music differently.

Thanks for the links!
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Re: Why Do Trombonists Suck At Improvising?

Post by PaulTdot »

ArbanRubank wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 6:21 pm It appears to be a cumulative thing. IOW's the more I learn, the more I hear and the more I hear, the more I learn.
That's exactly right! All these skills start building on each other pretty quickly, once you put in the work.

I used YouTube links because they're quick and easy to share - but I tried to pick players who had a recent recording out as a leader, so you could support them by purchasing their actual albums.

I don't have a library of these - this was just off the top of my head. A lot of these people are colleagues or schoolmates or mine, or just people I've heard of through the grapevine. Enjoy!
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