What makes a horn leadpipe/mouthpiece sensitive?

[TheBoneRanger]

Are there any aspects of a horn that makes it particularly sensitive to leadpipes or mouthpieces?

I'm playing an old Bach 50 at the moment that just seems quite fussy about leadpipes. Some great pipes just don't seem to work in it. Kanstul 169? Too dry. Brass Ark MV50? Feels like I have to tiptoe around the horn, and it's thin up top. But the best fit? An early 2000's Bach 50 pipe where the mouthpiece sticks out about a centimetre too far! The horn just seems to bloom with that leadpipe plugged in.

Other horns I've had just don't seem that bothered by leadpipe selection, or it's a small percentage change. Often, it's just been about picking the pipe that gives me the resistance I'm after, as the sound/blow doesn't change all that much. Not with this Bach 50!

So what part of a horn design makes a horn fussy like this?

Andrew

[Burgerbob]

I think this is something that has been ironed out with most boutique makers- that's why you can use the full array of supplied leadpipes, and many beyond while the horn still generally... works. There are some better than others, of course.

I just had a Bach 50B3OG with Shires rotors that was similarly picky. It only seemed to respond and make a good sound with 1 leadpipe, 1 slide, and 1 mouthpiece. Everything else made it a total crapshoot.

My "new" Holton TR-185 has the original leadpipe, so no changing that yet. But it only seems to really respond to my Yamaha Yeo mouthpiece.

There have been other horns in the past that worked with anything I threw at them.

I wonder if Matthew of M&W has anything for us that he can divulge.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I think the “sensitivity” issue you speak of exists in every instrument. It is just more prevalent on some horns with certain individuals. I’m sure many trombonechat members have gone through the same experience with at least one or two horns.

I agree with burgerbob that some companies have figured out a way to make instruments that can be successful with a broad array of mouthpieces, leadpipes, tuning slides, valves, etc... If their horns weren’t flexible to do this, the company wouldn’t survive.

I have a 1926 Conn 8H that only works for me with ONE specific mouthpiece/leadpipe combination. Considering that I have 60 large bore tenor mouthpieces and 50 .547 leadpipes, I think it is mathematically quite amazing. The great thing is that I have a horn that is a fantastic player.

After taking measurements on the old Conn, I found that the large end of the gooseneck is a little more open than most modern horns. Yet, the dual radius bends in the tuning slide are a little sharper than similar tuning slides I see on modern horns. For my 1926 8H, my hypothesis is that those two parts of the horn have made it “sensitive” to mouthpiece/leadpipe combinations.

[Thrawn22]

It's an interesting question that I've thought about now and then. For some reason, Bach stock pipes seem to work great in all of the horns I've swapped pipes on. My 70 series bassbones have all played immensely better with the Bach 50 pipe, my 6H has played great with a modified Bach 36 pipe, my 8H/88H plays great with my Bach 42 pipe and the 36 pipe i got recently really centered my 2547 slide. I have tried other pipes for these horns and nothing workd better than Bach. Using Griego mouthpieces almost exclusively is icing on the cake.

I do have my 53' 78H and the Minick 62H I'm buying that play great with they're stock pipes so I'm hesitant on swapping those out (don't want to ruin the horn or pipes). Problem with the 62H is the reciever (Remington) and i don't want to have to buy a mpc wirh a Remington shank.

[Posaunus]

Using Griego mouthpieces almost exclusively is icing on the cake.

I do have my 53' 78H and the Minick 62H I'm buying that play great with they're stock pipes so I'm hesitant on swapping those out (don't want to ruin the horn or pipes). Problem with the 62H is the reciever (Remington) and i don't want to have to buy a mpc wirh a Remington shank.

Perhaps Doug Elliott could make you a Griego feel-alike with a Remington shank? Or Christan might also make a special shank version for you?

[Thrawn22]

Using Griego mouthpieces almost exclusively is icing on the cake.

I do have my 53' 78H and the Minick 62H I'm buying that play great with they're stock pipes so I'm hesitant on swapping those out (don't want to ruin the horn or pipes). Problem with the 62H is the reciever (Remington) and i don't want to have to buy a mpc wirh a Remington shank.

Perhaps Doug Elliott could make you a Griego feel-alike with a Remington shank? Or Christan might also make a special shank version for you?

I may consider Doug when the time comes. I've been using my symington 1.5 primarily lately for bassbone and Dougs mouthpieces seem like a better match. I may try a griego 7 for my small bore since i use a Bach 7 for that. small bores are the only real horn i don't use a Griego on. I have a CS1 i use for Classical bassbone but it's shank is shorter than the Symington.

[WGWTR180]

I think this is something that has been ironed out with most boutique makers- that's why you can use the full array of supplied leadpipes, and many beyond while the horn still generally... works. There are some better than others, of course.

I just had a Bach 50B3OG with Shires rotors that was similarly picky. It only seemed to respond and make a good sound with 1 leadpipe, 1 slide, and 1 mouthpiece. Everything else made it a total crapshoot.

My "new" Holton TR-185 has the original leadpipe, so no changing that yet. But it only seems to really respond to my Yamaha Yeo mouthpiece.

There have been other horns in the past that worked with anything I threw at them.

I wonder if Matthew of M&W has anything for us that he can divulge.

Interesting that your 185 pipe is good. Virtually every 185, 169, and 180 that I have played(LOTS) have had poor original pipes. But Holtons were consistently inconsistent.

[Burgerbob]

Interesting that your 185 pipe is good. Virtually every 185, 169, and 180 that I have played(LOTS) have had poor original pipes. But Holtons were consistently inconsistent.

I think it's good, but who knows... the horn really doesn't want to calm down! It makes a really dense, present sound all the time. I can't back it off like I'm used to. Not sure if that's Holton, the leadpipe, or something else.

[WGWTR180]

Interesting that your 185 pipe is good. Virtually every 185, 169, and 180 that I have played(LOTS) have had poor original pipes. But Holtons were consistently inconsistent.

I think it's good, but who knows... the horn really doesn't want to calm down! It makes a really dense, present sound all the time. I can't back it off like I'm used to. Not sure if that's Holton, the leadpipe, or something else.

Well you'll find that when/if you have a great Holton, whatever the model number, the amount of effort that you use to play your "thayer whatever" is a great deal more than what you need to play, in this case, your 185. Once you learn to play the 185(no offense meant) you'll see what I mean.

[FOSSIL]

One thing I've learned....if a trombone plays really well, don't mess with it. If it's not great, a leadpipe often helps.
Every horn is leadpipe sensitive if the pipe is removable.
I have two original 70H pipes...one is best in my 60H and the other is best in the 62H.

Chris

[EOlson9]

I used to have a Yamaha YBL-612RII that played like crap with the stock Yamaha (58?) mouthpiece. Played well with a Bach 2G and ok with the Yeo mpc.