King 2b Liberty

Nobbi · Post by **Nobbi** » Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:56 am

I can get my hands on a very well care taken King 2b Liberty from the early sixties.
Question: does it make sense to buy it? Since I am a beginner on the trombone and work on a 5b Symphony .... it would maybe cool to have a trombone for the higher registers for Jazz (and I really love vintage brass).

I probably know your answers .... you all more or less ended up with a nice collection and still further looking

If not going for the 2b Liberty I would spend my money for giving the 5b a new gold laquer dress.

Elow · Post by **Elow** » Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:04 am

I think the 2b is the more logical choice over a lacquer job. Just my opinion

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:31 am

I second Elow - if you can get a 2B for a good price, do it. You can always get your money back on it - they are popular horns. I have small bore and large bore tenors and a bass myself. Having a variety of trombones opens up more reasons to practice and chances to play.

Hobart · Post by **Hobart** » Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:01 pm

I third Elow, I've never played a 2B but they're very commonly sought after. You won't lose much, if anything, if you try it, don't like it, and sell it again.

Plus, a small trombone is useful. The 5B is just too big for a lot of things, especially in a jazz setting. Having a 2B would make playing out of a lead book a lot easier. It's like having multiple tools in your shed; why not buy a hoe to supplement your rake?

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:05 pm

Purchase the King 2B. They are fine trombones. You will love it, and it will be a useful complement to your 5B. Worth far more than a re-lacquer job!

Post by **BGuttman** » Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:57 pm

Just a subtle warning: don't play a 2B like a 5B. You won't sound nice. Smaller horns need less air and more finesse.

That said, having a small bore to complement your large bore is good, but make sure it won't interfere with any development of your playing.

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:07 pm

Once you get the 2B, you will have to find a mouthpiece that works for you and your horn. I played a 4B with a Bach 5G as my only horn for many years . When I got a small bore I tried all the common Bach MPs from 7C up to 15 but they didn't feel right, they choked me off. Doug Elliott suggested trying a Bach 5, which is not "normal" for a 2B, but it really opened up the horn for me. I ended up getting one of his custom blends of similar specs that fits me even better. Good luck!

Nobbi · Post by **Nobbi** » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:03 am

Thank you for your nice words .... seems like I have to enlarge my brass treasure chest.
I already have a nice mouthpiece for the 2b ..... a very mint Mt Vernon 15c..
I promise to play it different from die 5b ..... usually I let die instruments guide me since they all have their own character.

Nobbi · Post by **Nobbi** » Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:02 am

Then it is mine, now!
https://www.ebay.de/itm/1960-65-H-N-Whi ... 1438.l2649

Now, I need Patience.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:26 am

Nobbi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:02 am ...
Now, I need Patience.

Patience is one of the two stone lions outside the main branch of the New York Public Library (the other is Fortitude).

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:02 am

Congratulations! Let us know what you think about it once you have it.

walldaja · Post by **walldaja** » Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:36 am

Looks like a nice score! Enjoy it.

Nobbi · Post by **Nobbi** » Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:22 am

Sorry guys,

really bad news. US customs killed the shipping in eBay's Global Shipping Center due to international restrictions concerning the Alligator leather case from 1961!!!!!!! It has no certificate that the leather was from an alligator breeding farm.
Further on they wrote, I shouldn't worry, they will refund the full amount to my bank account (which they did) but won't send it to me anymore and to the seller EITHER! What is going on here?
I am super disappointed ...

Nobbi

ithinknot · Post by **ithinknot** » Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:37 am

"Pitney Bowes may (at its discretion) dispose of or liquidate GSP Items in any manner that they prefer, including without limitation, (a) returning the item to you at your costs, (b) handing over the item to the authorities or (c) destroying the item without notice."

This is a known risk. The seller may or may not get the item back (often not), though they won't necessarily be asked to reimburse the costs of refunding you, so it's possible that no-one loses money, but the instrument gets Disappeared.

The eBay GSP generally functions well, albeit slowly and massively overpriced, but when things go wrong you're dealing with a large and impenetrable system. Unfortunately, the terms of service are clear and the customs violation is legitimate (even if the practical and ethical implications are silly in this example). CITES regulations are very strict, and it's the seller's responsibility to inform themselves.

In any case, I'm glad you got your refund.

Oslide · Post by **Oslide** » Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:48 pm

Nobbi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:22 am ---snippet---

Sorry guys,

really bad news. US customs killed the shipping in eBay's Global Shipping Center due to international restrictions concerning the Alligator leather case from 1961!!!!!!! It has no certificate that the leather was from an alligator breeding farm.

This must be a joke, isn't it!? That leather is plastic. I have a 2B with a serial number about 10,000 lower than yours, and with an identical case. I looked for some leather pattern in your pictures and found the identical one on my case. I also found that the patterns are continuous and repeating every 42 cm. That would never happen on an alligator. Are you pulling our legs??

jbeatenbough · Post by **jbeatenbough** » Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:51 pm

Are fake alligators protected too?

Post by **BGuttman** » Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:54 pm

jbeatenbough wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:51 pm Are fake alligators protected too?

I guess along with Naugas

Nobbi · Post by **Nobbi** » Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:34 am

I wish I would pull your legs .... this is an insane story.
I really hope the seller can get the trombone since they definitely made a wrong decision (evidence is the returning pattern).
This needs to come to a good end.

Oslide · Post by **Oslide** » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:52 am

Good luck with this endeavor!

Vegastokc · Post by **Vegastokc** » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:18 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:26 am
Nobbi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:02 am ...
Now, I need Patience.
Patience is one of the two stone lions outside the main branch of the New York Public Library (the other is Fortitude).

Ok that's it, I'm now making a note not to play Trival Pursuit with you. Your well of knowledge is astounding.

Nobbi · Post by **Nobbi** » Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:13 am

Still being really frustrated ....

is there an Adequate to a 2b Liberty, out there?
Bach, Conn, Holton, Olds, Rath, Shire .... I can get my hands on a Thein Maxxim. Has anyone experience with Thein's?

Vegasbound · Post by **Vegasbound** » Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:38 am

Contact DJ he has all things King and small bore

Elow · Post by **Elow** » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:01 am

Theins are super expensive, if you can get one for 1200 that’s probably a good deal.

Nobbi · Post by **Nobbi** » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:05 am

Elow wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:01 am Theins are super expensive, if you can get one for 1200 that’s probably a good deal.

No ..... it's more like .... 4K ... this is why I am asking. Is it worth it?

Elow · Post by **Elow** » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:13 am

Nobbi wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:05 am
Elow wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:01 am Theins are super expensive, if you can get one for 1200 that’s probably a good deal.
No ..... it's more like .... 4K ... this is why I am asking. Is it worth it?

Personally, definitely not. I would post an ad in the classifieds looking for a small bore. You could get a shires Q33 that plays great for like 2k new

Post by **BGuttman** » Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:18 am

Have you looked into Schmeltzer?

For a lot less you could consider a Conn 4H or Holton 65.

Hobart · Post by **Hobart** » Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:16 am

Nobbi wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:13 am Still being really frustrated ....

is there an Adequate to a 2b Liberty, out there?
Bach, Conn, Holton, Olds, Rath, Shire .... I can get my hands on a Thein Maxxim. Has anyone experience with Thein's?

My instructor said that, although Theins are fantastic horns, and that he wants one himself, apparently they don't blend the best with trombones that aren't Theins.

Don't take my word for it, but I feel like you could buy multiple fantastic horns for the same price as a Thein. You could buy a new 2B, although it's worth trying multiple, for about the same price, or buy as many as four older ones. I don't know many great alternatives to the 2B, but they are out there used, and for far less than the Thein.

If you don't mind going a little bit larger than a 2B, your options open up to include the Conn 6H, and bigger still, the 3B. They aren't too difficult to sell if needed, and are decent horns that will get the job done.

Post by **BGuttman** » Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:02 pm

Buddy Morrow, who took over the Dorsey Band for a time, played all Dorsey's solos on a Holton 65.

Vegasbound · Post by **Vegasbound** » Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:24 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:02 pm Buddy Morrow, who took over the Dorsey Band for a time, played all Dorsey's solos on a Holton 65.

Buddy took over the TDO in the late 70's , by which time he had become a King artist and played a 2b before switching in the early 80's to a 3b which he played until his death in 2010

Vegasbound · Post by **Vegasbound** » Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:27 pm

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:24 pm
BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:02 pm Buddy Morrow, who took over the Dorsey Band for a time, played all Dorsey's solos on a Holton 65.
Buddy took over the TDO in the late 70's , by which time he had become a King artist and played a 2b before switching in the early 80's to a 3b which he played until his death in 2010

Listen to BM's earlier recordings he played a 65 and the later versions from the 30's through to the start of the 70's when he switched to a 6h

If you haven't heard Buddy's playing including the late 50's TD tribute record or his golden trombone recordings you are in for a real treat

Nobbi · Post by **Nobbi** » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:06 am

Update on the beautiful King 2b eaten by eBy GSP for it's "crocodile-leather" case:
they are not spitting it out anymore because "they can not proof wether it's real animal skin or artificial leather".
Makes me nearly speechless .... just four words are left: NEVER USE EBAY GSP!!!!!

Meanwhile I tried to calm myself down and talked to pro sellers here in Germany to try lead horns that would fit me instead. Today, these two beauties arrived and I have 14 days until they need to be returned (or kept):

1. Conn 4h from 1940 https://www.ebay.de/itm/Conn-4h-Artist- ... true&rt=nc

2. King 2b from 1956 https://www.ebay.de/itm/King-2b-Liberty ... true&rt=nc

And this one is on it's way to me:
3. Thein custom from 1981 (today called Maxim) https://www.ebay.de/itm/Tenorposaune-Th ... 1438.l2649

First testing with beauty one and two feels somehow flat .... compared with my 5b. Although the 2b has a much warmer sound. Other than that, they are both really powerful in sound. I am impressed.
Both instruments don't have a spring below the mouthpiece section, so if I am too fast coming back to position one I may loose some teeth *joke*. If I keep one of these two, I need to have a spring installed.

Let's see the next days of playing ....

Post by **BGuttman** » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:38 am

FWIW, King only put the springs on the large bore 4B, 5B, 6B, 7B, and 8B. I can't think of a single small bore I have played or seen that had slide springs; most just have bumpers (usually cork or felt).

I suspect you would have found the Liberty that was lost to play just like the 1956 one.

Vegastokc · Post by **Vegastokc** » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:36 am

All three are beautiful horns.

I follow elbblech on Instagram. He always has amazing stuff to show and sell.
And now the best part: deciding which one to keep.

Nobbi · Post by **Nobbi** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:04 am

I had all three horns at home for one week, now. Very interesting, surprising, disappointing at certain points.

My original idea to have a King 2b was a good one and the 2b Liberty I had for testing is a beautiful horn and it's fun to play, precise to work. BUT .... it sounded like my 5b ... although less mellow and nice an full ... but alike. Since I love the sound and power my 5b I wanted a second trombone with a different sound especially for Jazz.

The Thein was a disappointment. I soaked the slide in Yamaha Slide Lubricant but couldn't get rid of this slight scratching sound ... which in the end could be fixed at Thein (nearby my home) of course. Else, that 40 year old instrument was in excellent condition, no ding, nothing. Right from it's first hand.
The sound and the handling is what disappointed me. That machine is fuzzy in sound and not precise in playing. Very strange, especially since I used the same mouthpiece for 2b, 4h and Thein, of course.

The Conn 4h Artist Special has this beaming bright sound and incredible power when you increase the air flow. It plays like a swiss clockwork, precise, clear .... simply fun to play and I can't feel it's 80 years. Very impressive and my final choice.

Thanks for all your comments. As usual, very helpful and experienced.

FEWeathers · Post by **FEWeathers** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:20 am

Nice pick, Nobbi! Conn 4Hs are superb.

spencercarran · Post by **spencercarran** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:32 am

4H is a great horn, seriously underrated instruments.

Cmillar · Post by **Cmillar** » Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:09 am

You’ve heard of the Yamaha 697z?

It was designed by former King 2B player Al Kay in Toronto to be the same or better for him. And Ian McDougall says it’s a “better 2B” (if you don’t know who Ian is you better check him out!)

Anyways, lots of people love the 697z

Vegasbound · Post by **Vegasbound** » Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:58 am

Cmillar wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:09 am You’ve heard of the Yamaha 697z?

It was designed by former King 2B player Al Kay in Toronto to be the same or better for him. And Ian McDougall says it’s a “better 2B” (if you don’t know who Ian is you better check him out!)

Anyways, lots of people love the 697z

Have to agree, I owned Don Lusher's 697 and used it on the cruise ships it was a great horn, I have regretted selling it but had no option at the time.....great playing horn

Cmillar · Post by **Cmillar** » Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:32 am

Same here! Did a cruise ship gig with one. Kind of kicking myself for trading it away.

jbeatenbough · Post by **jbeatenbough** » Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:54 pm

I have a good playing 1938 2b I could be talked out of...