What is the best seating for a brass quintet, and why?

[BrianJohnston]

Ok, we've all been here... how do we sit for a gig? Trumpets next to each other, trumpets across, trombone on the edge of the stage?

What is the ideal seating, and why? I assume it's this: (But please, open to suggestions)

------ tuba -----
horn---------trombone
tpt 2---------tpt 1

My argument is the following:
1. trumpet 1 & trombone can show a great visual cue together, and they often play in octaves.
2. trumpet 1 plays directly towards trumpet 2 for easy matching/blending
3. horn, trombone, tuba are in a nice low brass trifecta

Thoughts? arguments?

[harrisonreed]

The traditional "everybody faces in towards each other" BQ setting (as you have drawn) is boring, distances the audience, and ensures that your BQ has their heads stuck in the stands. Opening it up to:

-------------------------------tuba--------------------------------
Horn--------tbone----------------------tpt1-----------tpt2

1. Engages the audience
2. Encourages the group to play standing up and towards the audience, which sounds better
3. Encourages the stands to be moved down and away from the performers, meaning they learn the music better and rely on communication with each other and their knowledge of the music rather than the sheets.
4. Allows for better lateral communication between the trumpets, the trombone and tuba for intonation, and the trombone and horn.
5. Allows for solo lines to actually be recognized as solo lines by the audience, either through emotive movement or, heaven forbid, stepping out for the solo line and playing from memory.
6. Encourages rehearsals that are closer to the performance setting, rather than sitting in a square and practicing sheet music.

Brass players, especially classical ones, have generally really really bad ideas about what entertains audiences. I've seen many unbelievably good BQs play an entire program seated in the box, and they ended up being some of the most boring performances I've ever sat through. And I'm a brass musician. Contrast with Mnozil (sic) brass, which plays many venues but probably is not as high of a pedigree of brass player as the BQs I talk about above (they are still incredibly good). They leave to standing ovations every time and they have a more varied audience.

[Kbiggs]

There are many different seating arrangements, most of them designed to allow the players to hear each a little more easily. I agree with Harrison: the typical “box” seating, however the players are arranged, encourages players to bury their heads in the sand... err, stand.

For many years, the Empire BQ performed with the following:

H ——— trombone ——— trumpet 1 ——— trumpet 2 ——— tuba
o
r
n

The horn faced the other players perpendicularly (that’s a sextuplet, BTW). All the bells pointed out (assuming a tuba that points to the player’s left), which helps project the sound evenly from all players, and allows the tubist and hornist to be heard with a little less effort.

“But tubas and horns are supposed to be omnidirectional Instruments, not unidirectional.” That works well in a band or orchestra. But many things are different in chamber music. And, if you’re playing in a large hall with lots of human sound absorbers, maybe a bit of unidirectional horn and tuba can help with projection and clarity, especially in the lower registers.

Another good arrangement is a very obtuse angle, like a wide and flattish V (it would be an upside down V in Harrison’s and my pics). I think arrangements like this also encourage audience participation and engagement.

A pet peeve: BQ’s with bass trombone that places the bass trombonist dead center pointing straight out to the audience. In my opinion, this often destroys the balance you so desperately need in chamber music. And yes, I am a bass trombonist, thank you very much. If you’re in a BQ with a bass trombonist and the players insist on sitting in a box, for God’s sake put the hornist in the center!

[harrisonreed]

Yes, mine is supposed to show a wide arc or V. Not a flat line. If it works for trombone choirs and vocal choirs, why wouldn't it work for BQ?

[hyperbolica]

My quartet practices in an X - every one facing center, but we perform in the shallow V so we can still see and hear one another, but the audience can see and hear us as well.

I also don't like to point a bell straight at the audience. That's the one positive about the box arrangement.

Music serves a lot of different purposes on Earth, and they don't have to all be the same. Classical music isn't really about entertainment in the same way that pop music is. Classical is more about beauty, and beauty refreshes and inspires. Ceremonies, liturgies, and tone poems.

I love Mnozil, and what they do can be both entertaining and beautiful. Think minstrels.

Empire, in their heyday, was truly inspiring, and I'd listen to them for hours, with nary a dance step in sight. I think that when Empire tried to be "entertaining", it was forced and a bit square.

Mnozil has the entertainment down in spades. Mnozil is best on video. Empire was best in recordings, or when you're sitting in the back row of a church.

[bassboy]

A pet peeve: BQ’s with bass trombone that places the bass trombonist dead center pointing straight out to the audience. In my opinion, this often destroys the balance you so desperately need in chamber music. And yes, I am a bass trombonist, thank you very much. If you’re in a BQ with a bass trombonist and the players insist on sitting in a box, for God’s sake put the hornist in the center!

My quintet would agree with you. We do this:

...Tpt >-----< Tpt
B.Tbn >-----< Tbn
.........Horn

(ignore the periods, spacing/format didn't quite translate here)

We typically like there to be something behind our horn player for her sound to "bounce" off of, both for us and the audience to hear her better.
This way we also find everyone in the group just generally hears and sees each other better, making it easier for us to be more musical (ideally). Maybe the sound isn't going absolutely straight out into the audience, but we play so much better and generally it sounds fine.

[ajroosevelt]

Agree - That the correct arrangement of the quintet is based on the music you are playing....

A few items to add:

1) Musicians need to be facing each other. (Semi-circle most common). A highly experienced quintet like the Canadian Brass can stand in a line facing the audience.....but when they do, their music sounds exactly like the CD.....pure and beautiful and the timing is perfect.....but you can't hear the emotion.

2) The placement of the musicians should, in part, depends on the skill of the musicians. I think it sounds best if the most expressive, best playing musicians, whose playing is most critical to hear in the quintet, are on the outside closest to the audience.

3) Traditional format of Trumpet 1 and Trumpet 2 is not the most creative set-up, and over-states the Trumpet playing.....now if your score is written for strength in the Trumpet section - Trumpet 1 and Trumpet 2 talking to each other as a dominant theme in the score, this if fine....or if your two trumpet players are by far your best musicians, this is fine....but if you want some additional interest....especially towards the end of the concert when the continuing bright sound of the Trumpet starts to wane in interest, I think it is best to move Trumpet 2 back, and move the Trombone or Horn up......sorry Tuba, you are still stuck doing the baseline in the back for most of the concert.

I just posted a thread called "Wycliffe and the Band" under in this same Performance Forum. If you watch the video, you will see the quintet standing in a traditional semi circle. Wycliffe Gordon on Trombone on the right side closest to the audience, Jens Lindemann on the left Side, also closest to the audience. In this format, you can always hear the low brass and the high brass talk to each other.....as that conversation keeps the concert interesting throughout. You will also notice that the Horn and Tuba switch places depending on which piece they are playing. Trumpet #2, Rich Kelley (Boston Pops/Boston Symphony), who has an incredible mellow voice always stands next to Trumpet #1. Even though the Tuba Player is William Russell of the Boston Brass - he still needs to move forward for the compositions where he has solos.

In my opinion positions are really about who you want to hear/need to hear in order to make the music sound best.

[Finetales]

Brass quintets, wind quintets, and tuba-euphonium quartets often (always?) sit in a box, while trombone quartets usually don't. The unifying factor? Trombone quartets are a primarily standing ensemble, while the others usually sit. That's gotta have something to do with it.

Contrast with Mnozil (sic) brass, which plays many venues but probably is not as high of a pedigree of brass player as the BQs I talk about above (they are still incredibly good). They leave to standing ovations every time and they have a more varied audience.

Okay, but like...Mnozil's success and entertainment value has almost nothing to do with them not facing each other (which they often do). They're popular because their concerts are choreographed music and entertainment/comedy, not just music. Not to mention they play in a LOT more styles than just classical chamber music. I'll bet you any money Mnozil could do an entire concert seated in the box and still get the same response.

I agree that the traditional BQ box isn't always the best solution, but I don't think Mnozil is a very relevant argument for why it's not.

[harrisonreed]

Brass quintets, wind quintets, and tuba-euphonium quartets often (always?) sit in a box, while trombone quartets usually don't. The unifying factor? Trombone quartets are a primarily standing ensemble, while the others usually sit. That's gotta have something to do with it.

Contrast with Mnozil (sic) brass, which plays many venues but probably is not as high of a pedigree of brass player as the BQs I talk about above (they are still incredibly good). They leave to standing ovations every time and they have a more varied audience.

Okay, but like...Mnozil's success and entertainment value has almost nothing to do with them not facing each other (which they often do). They're popular because their concerts are choreographed music and entertainment/comedy, not just music. Not to mention they play in a LOT more styles than just classical chamber music. I'll bet you any money Mnozil could do an entire concert seated in the box and still get the same response.

I agree that the traditional BQ box isn't always the best solution, but I don't think Mnozil is a very relevant argument for why it's not.

I think you're not following my line of thought. My point is that if you are starting out saying "we need to play BQ music, and we need to play sitting, in a box", then you're already setting yourself up to be a less entertaining, less engaging, and possibly boring ensemble. They are very relevant to my point, since my point was to suggest a more interesting format that audiences actually want to hear and see. I don't, even as a brass player, want to sit through an hour or more of a static BQ sat in a box on stage. Sorry.

[Finetales]

I don't, even as a brass player, want to sit through an hour or more of a static BQ sat in a box on stage. Sorry.

I very, very much agree with you. Believe me! But personally I don't think getting out of the box would make a drastic difference. It would still just be an hour of brass quintet music, just that they're facing more towards you than each other, probably interacting with each other less in the process. Most brass players, especially classical ones, don't have an ounce of the creativity, charisma, or stage presence that the Mnozil guys do.

(My personal preferred setup for a brass quintet is none at all, but that's an entirely different discussion... )

[harrisonreed]

I don't, even as a brass player, want to sit through an hour or more of a static BQ sat in a box on stage. Sorry.

I very, very much agree with you. Believe me! But personally I don't think getting out of the box would make a drastic difference. It would still just be an hour of brass quintet music, just that they're facing more towards you than each other, probably interacting with each other less in the process.

(My personal preferred setup for a brass quintet is none at all, but that's an entirely different discussion... )

Thanks! I see it as a start towards treating a BQ as a different type of ensemble. The next step is programming a more cohesive program, maybe with arrangements of music that is ... not BQ music. Give members a chance to be featured and really pass the music lines around. Memorize more. ...and suddenly you're not a BQ anymore and oh my god, where did this mellophone come from?!?

Haha

[Finetales]

oh my god, where did this mellophone come from?!?

NOW you're speaking my language!

[BGuttman]

Who can advise the most expensive trumpet for professional playing?

Monette, without question.

Note that with a Monette, you also have to follow his instructions for playing it.

[Vegasbound]

Your all writing as if the quintet only plays concerts on stage towards an audience, most of my quintets work is of the function type playing back ground music sometimes in a minstrel gallery more often in the corner of the room and of course wedding ceremonies and or receptions/ garden party type venues

I prefer too sit trpt, trpt tuba horn and me on the the opposite end in the conventional u easier to be available to talk with fixer/client also don't have to worry about a wall behind me

Yes it's not CB or Mnozil but corporate are always decent earners

[Vegasbound]

Your all writing as if the quintet only plays concerts on stage towards an audience, most of my quintets work is of the function type playing back ground music sometimes in a minstrel gallery more often in the corner of the room and of course wedding ceremonies and or receptions/ garden party type venues

I prefer too sit trpt, trpt tuba horn and me on the the opposite end in the conventional u easier to be available to talk with fixer/client also don't have to worry about a wall behind me

Yes it's not CB or Mnozil but corporate are always decent earners