How do Doug Elliott pieces work?

[Posaunus]

Leo,

I'm still trying to decipher the Doug Elliott mouthpiece code. But unfortunately, I have no idea what a "G4" is.

I think I need an interpreter to this new (to me) language.

Is this a shank, a cup, a rim, or an entire mouthpiece set?

Help!

[Vegasbound]

Shank

If you go to Dougs website it is all explained

[Posaunus]

Shank

If you go to Dougs website it is all explained

Thanks. I looked there, but could not find an explanation for a G4 shank. I must be a little dense.

Apparently this shank only fits certain size cups. I just can't figure out which.

[Jimtrombone]

Doug is the expert here, but the way I understand it, the letter on the cup should match the letter on the shank.

Doug's site explains the numbering system and recommended bore size.

A G4 is recommended with a .525 horn like a bach 36 using a G cup.

Hope that helps

Jim

[Posaunus]

Doug is the expert here, but the way I understand it, the letter on the cup should match the letter on the shank.

Doug's site explains the numbering system and recommended bore size.

A G4 is recommended with a .525 horn like a bach 36 using a G cup.

Hope that helps

Jim

Thanks!

[Matt K]

I didn't get it until I actually held one in my hands. Basically you have "Series" which affects which cup can fit which rim. So an "XT" cup is compatible with any other "XT" rim. In this case, let's say you have an XT104 rim and an XT G cup. That means you have a 1.04" rim and a G depth cup, in the XT series.

From there, you need a shank. The shank matches any series cup of the same letter. So in this case, a "G4" is a 4 shank that fits on G cups. So it would work on our theoretical (or not so theoretical for me as that's what I play on) Rim/Cup combination from the previous paragraph. However, if you also had say, an LB114/LB G combination, you could also use the "G4" shank on that as well. But your LB114 rim wouldn't fit on the XT G cup, nor the other way around. But you could have a single shank for both top halves.

[Bach5G]

So, what series is this?

[BGuttman]

So, what series is this?

A G4 shank fits any G cup (ST, MT, LT, EU, etc.) The 4 backbore is set up for Medium Bore horns and is the perfect length for the G cup. If placed on an E cup it screws in, but the combination is a little short since the E cup is shorter than the G cup.

Doug says you can get away with a one letter mismatch without much trouble, So the G4 shank could be used with an F, G, or H cup. (Does anybody play an F cup? I really don't see that mentioned much.)

[Matt K]

Migrated from classifieds.

As Bruce indicated, shanks are mated to the cup. So any series cup will match a shank of the same letter. E.g. An ST C, MT C, LT C, XT C, SB C, LB C, etc. will all be compatible a C4 shank.

I've thought about buying an F cup but I typically find that an E or a G works great for one thing or the other so never got around to it. Once of these days when I pay of my student loans...

[mrdeacon]

Maybe to help a bit and to not tread the same water...

Doug intentionally doesn't give specific specs on his cups and shanks. Just a short description. I think he's genius doing that. Makes it so you can't get caught up with technical specs that don't really mean anything. His descriptions of his cups and shanks are very accurate though.

For example his G cup is almost the same as the one on a 4G or 5G. His F cup is about that of a 5GS etc. For bass his J cup is similar to a 1.5G, K cup Schilke 59 ect.

He won't tell you backbone or throat sizes on his shanks but it's fairly easy to guestimate what they are with his descriptions.

Definity contact Doug if you have any questions. Sometimes he will be very direct but the answer will be exactly the one you need.

[hyperbolica]

Doug will give the best description, but here's how I work with it.

Start with the rim that fits your face. You have to physically try the rim on your face to feel this, you can't just guess by the number. Let's say that's a 104.

Then pick a series. 104 rims may fit into LT or XT. The series is basically the size of the blank, which drives the size of the thread, and it accommodates a range of rim/cup sizes. Only the rim and cup have a series, the shank fits any series, but just a specific cup, regardless of series.

Then pick a cup. Go by Doug's descriptions, they have been right on for me.

Then pick a shank, which on one end fits the cup, and on the other end can be either large or small shank, or can have a specific taper, like Morse, Remington, alto, King, etc. He has descriptions on his site, although you may have to look around for some of it.

So a full mouthpiece would be XT N104 G G8
That's an XT with a narrow 104 rim, a G cup and a shank to fit a large bore tenor.

I have all the cups from C to G (including F - great for 525 bore) and shanks to fit all. I use the same rim size on all of them, which I use for small bore to large bore tenor. I have some shanks for F and G cups to fit both small and large bores.

Bass is a different animal. I just picked up a LB 111 K .K8. I don't try to use the same rim on bass and tenor. I tried it, but that didn't work for me.

[Posaunus]

Thanks to all of you. The mystery is slowly unraveling to me.

[Doug Elliott]

If you need help with any of it, I'm right here. The previous descriptions are accurate.

I definitely recommend using the same letter shank as the cup letter. The only variants on that rule are "+" cups which are halfway to the next depth, and work better with the next letter shank. For example I use a C+ cup with a D2 shank, on a .500 bore horn.
G+ cup depth is a special case, I make G+ shanks for it, but an H shank is acceptable.

With my system I can put together virtually any combination of rim size, cup depth, and shank size, for any horn, and it will play very well.

The series to choose depends partly on the best rim size for your embouchure. Don't guess the rim size by what "feels good.". If I can see and hear you play (Skype or video) I can help you decide what rim size and shape will work best for you, and I'm good at making the right choice the first time. It depends on your embouchure type, face structure, and what's easy or hard for you in general. I can only help with that if I can actually see you play.

Special shank tapers like Conn, King, Olds, Contempora, various euphoniums, and custom shanks for sackbut, are no problem and no extra charge. I have dozens of shank sizes and tapers available.

[stewbones43]

The question is "How do Doug Elliott pieces work?"

The answer is "Brilliantly!"

Stewbones43

[mrdeacon]

Listen to Doug when he says take a lesson/let him see your face over skype. I've made the mistake of guessing rim sizes for years. I've gone in a complete circle... from small to large to small and back to large... and I ended up with a rim size I just should have stuck with years ago!!!

[Trav1s]

Do yourself a favor and do the Skype with Doug. I was fortunate to have an in person fitting at ITF and the experience was great and the improvement to my sound and playing was quite noticeable. As of now, I have a setup for small tenor, .522" which is my main horn, and a .547" combo on the shelf for when I find the right horn.

[elmsandr]

...

If I can see and hear you play (Skype or video) I can help you decide what rim size and shape will work best for you, and I'm good at making the right choice the first time. It depends on your embouchure type, face structure, and what's easy or hard for you in general. I can only help with that if I can actually see you play.
...

Take him up on this!

Heck, in the pre Skype days, I spent maybe 20 minutes on the phone with him, played a couple of my existing pieces and described how I felt and what I liked and didn’t like and he fit me a piece that I am still playing now 20 years later.

I, of course, still didn’t believe that this was the case and have since picked up every neighboring size in his system and a ton of other pieces from other makers... he was still right and made the perfect choice the first time. I need to remember this next time I get distracted by a shiny new object.

Cheers,
Andy

[harrisonreed]

Best alto trombone and small bore mouthpieces I've ever played.

[johntarr]

Don’t spend much time trying to “figure it out.” Get a skype consultation with Doug and let him guide you. I never would’ve picked what he recommended for me on my own but I’m so thankful for his help and now his mouthpieces.

[TromboneMonkey]

Don’t spend much time trying to “figure it out.” Get a skype consultation with Doug and let him guide you. I never would’ve picked what he recommended for me on my own but I’m so thankful for his help and now his mouthpieces.

I agree wholeheartedly. There's a certain liberation to removing oneself from this process.

[LOBRASS]

Doug Elliott is a master of the art.
I have been using a wide range of his mouthpieces for ten plus years.
Just contact him directly, he will do his best to get you the right tool.
Best of luck.