The contour of the rim of the mouthpiece matters a lot

[imsevimse]

Here's one to think about... if you play bass, big tenor and small tenor, life will be a lot easier if you can find mouthpieces with the same rim shape...not size, but rim contour...found that one out ....in the end.

Chris

I think that's why I prefer certain contours before others. The "grip" on the lip needs to be similar to be comfortable, but I also feel the maximum and minimum rim sizes I need, have to be practiced a lot to work. Not nessecary all sizes in between but the maximum size and the minimum size, and then personally I need to put work in just ONE in between. That work makes it possible to play all the others too as long as the "grip" on the lip is familiar.

I think I have more than 100 mouthpieces and I switch regularly to find what best fits certain horns. I can play anything from Bach 11C to Bach 1 1/4 G but certain mouthpieces like the 7C in between does not feel comfortable. That one has definitely another contour. The Bach 12C I loved for many years does not fit me nowdays either because of the "grip" or contour as Chris says. A Bach 12C Mnt Vernon on the other hand works great, and that's because it's not like a modern 12C. The "grip" on the lip feel different on that MntVernon.

I agree completely with Chris that same contour of the rim is what makes it easier to me too and not at all size, not where I am in development, and to me when the contour differs it does not mean the mouthpiece is unplayable, just it needs a lot more work and is "not as easy" to play.

When I played alto the 12E was my choice. It was the best mouthpiece for me and that Bach 39 Alto but unfortunately that 12E also has another "grip". I think that's why I needed at least two weeks of work on that Alto mouthpiece whenever I had a gig later when I had turned away from the 12C on tenor. It was much easier when my favourite mouthpieces on tenor and alto had the same contour which was the case when I played alto a lot in the early 90'ies.

/Tom

[Basbasun]

Yes the profile is more important then the size for me too.

[SwissTbone]

Same here

[harrisonreed]

Yes. The cup diameter is also important, but that's why I think I settled on the Bousfield rim. Very similar to the Lindberg rim contour.

[imsevimse]

Yes. The cup diameter is also important, but that's why I think I settled on the Bousfield rim. Very similar to the Lindberg rim contour.

Of course. This I think we all agree on.The subject should really specify rim contour because that's the debate. See if I can change that. The cup of course also affects the playability of the horn, it sure affects the horn a lot, but there is often a thought that the rim must be wide enough to make room for the lips. I'm sure that is the case for some players and their lips but to me, Chris, Basbasun and others we have found the contour to be of more importance than width of the rim.
I have rather normal size of lips and no problem to play smaller rims as long as the contour of the rim is similar.

/Tom

[harrisonreed]

Sorry, I was being specific to the rim contour. Badly worded in my case. I found a cup diameter that really worked for me, but finding it in the rim contour that is basically the same as my old favorite mouthpiece was like coming home.

[FOSSIL]

Interesting that we all agree, but the contour as a specific has not come up for discussion very often as I remember it. This is something younger players would do well to note if they intend to double. Typical rim shapes are very complex... when the people who make the Symingtons for Bill first tried to copy the shape of my MV 1 1/2G, they got the rim wrong big time....apparently the curve was slightly different at every point it was measured and confused them.
Doug would be able to say far more about rims I'm sure.

Chris

[hyperbolica]

I haven't paid much attention to the rim contour, although I did notice that my endurance is greatly affected.

In general I like the 2g, but the rim cuts into my lip and affects endurance.

DE has the best rim shape as far as I'm concerned, but I do also like Bachs, like the 1.25g.

[BurckhardtS]

Yeah, the DE narrow rim has to be the best shape for me. I actually just tried the Bousfield V3 and I'm not a huge fan, the rim is narrow but the narrow point is way too close to the inside of the rim, and it feels really weird that way.

[Kevbach33]

For me it wasn't until I played a Wick 1AL that I began thinking about rim contours. It made me understand why I could not stand the "typical" Bach rim: there's not enough bite FOR ME combined with the rounded shape. As a result, it really cuts off my circulation, something Schilke rims, and the 1AL, usually don't do for me.

Then again, the Wick rim goes too far the other way for me, so flat that it locks my lips on place. Not necessarily ideal for the average bass trombonist, and not for me.

Of course, there's always the exception, and in Bach the 5 rim is that exception: flat enough to not dig into my face muscles. For Schilke, it's the 60 because it's too thin, even though the contour is the same as, say, a 58.

[Burgerbob]

This is exactly why I'm about to send off my GB Alessi 3.5M to Doug. I love the mouthpiece in almost every way except the wide rim.

[norbie2018]

Can someone give a comparison of the various rim contours out there? For instance, I believe DW has a flatter rim with a sharper inner edge. I know that Stork tends to be rounder. What about DE, Bach, Schilke, etc? And what do the contours accomplish?

[TheBoneRanger]

Interesting that we all agree, but the contour as a specific has not come up for discussion very often as I remember it.

Either everyone has been keeping this secret to themselves, or they've all discovered it at the exact same time...

Andrew

[harrisonreed]

I thought it was common knowledge that the rim contour was important lol!

I always felt that the Lindberg rim contour was the most flexible and never made me tired (people thought I was crazy). I just couldn't play as high or as low on that cup diameter. V3 banzai!!!

For me, a narrower, round rim means that there is less metal locking my face into place, and I can play a lot longer without getting tired. That said, flat/wide rimmed mouthpieces like Alessi plays are great if you get a lot of rest, because the rim locks you into a really stable, great, but inflexible tone/sound. That's not a bad thing for ensemble playing.

[FOSSIL]

I thought it was common knowledge that the rim contour was important lol!

I always felt that the Lindberg rim contour was the most flexible and never made me tired (people thought I was crazy). I just couldn't play as high or as low on that cup diameter. V3 banzai!!!

For me, a narrower, round rim means that there is less metal locking my face into place, and I can play a lot longer without getting tired. That said, flat/wide rimmed mouthpieces like Alessi plays are great if you get a lot of rest, because the rim locks you into a really stable, great, but inflexible tone/sound. That's not a bad thing for ensemble playing.

Sure, contour of rim is important and different rims suit different faces, but that was not my point ...... I was commenting on the importance of finding rims of similar contour when doubling.

Chris

[harrisonreed]

Yes. I think even if the cup diameters are different sizes, if the contour is the same, it will still feel like the same notice, and your face will interact in a similar way.

[islander]

Interesting that we all agree, but the contour as a specific has not come up for discussion very often as I remember it. This is something younger players would do well to note if they intend to double. Typical rim shapes are very complex... when the people who make the Symingtons for Bill first tried to copy the shape of my MV 1 1/2G, they got the rim wrong big time....apparently the curve was slightly different at every point it was measured and confused them.
Doug would be able to say far more about rims I'm sure.

Chris

Ha - that was fun. Asymmetrical curves are a challenge to the uninitiated! Lessons were learned.

[FOSSIL]

Yes. I think even if the cup diameters are different sizes, if the contour is the same, it will still feel like the same notice, and your face will interact in a similar way.

Exactly

Chris

[norbie2018]

Can someone give a comparison of the various rim contours out there? For instance, I believe DW has a flatter rim with a sharper inner edge. I know that Stork tends to be rounder. What about DE, Bach, Schilke, etc? And what do the contours accomplish?

Still wondering if someone can answer this. Thanks!

[FOSSIL]

Can someone give a comparison of the various rim contours out there? For instance, I believe DW has a flatter rim with a sharper inner edge. I know that Stork tends to be rounder. What about DE, Bach, Schilke, etc? And what do the contours accomplish?

Still wondering if someone can answer this. Thanks!

As we have touched upon, in reality modern rim contours are very complex and to describe them in any truly meaningful way would involve recourse to some serious mathematics.
Terms such as flat, sharp and rounded are vast over simplifications of the shapes and have led to considerable confusion in the past.
The contour of a rim is the property of structure of metal that forms a platform to allow the facial muscles to control vibration so as to be able to play a brass instrument.

Chris

[norbie2018]

Then how does a doubler determine matching rim contours? Buy different sized mps from the same maker? What happens if s/he wants to experiment with different mps from different makers, does s/he guess which ones would be similar?

[FOSSIL]

Then how does a doubler determine matching rim contours? Buy different sized mps from the same maker? What happens if s/he wants to experiment with different mps from different makers, does s/he guess which ones would be similar?

Good point. There is no easy answer to your question. Those of us that have had an interest in mouthpieces have probably invested a small fortune in buying examples over the years. My students benefit from this collection by being able to try many different mouthpieces at the start of their studies if for no other reason than to show them that there is no magic mouthpiece.
Unfortunately some manufacturer's descriptions are lacking in veracity and can lead to expensive mistakes. Perhaps it is best to ask around and try and borrow candidates on your mouthpiece quest. Many iconic mouthpieces vary greatly from example to example... I have owned a lot of Bach MV 1 1/2G pieces and every one has been different.
Years ago there was a box of tenor mouthpieces that travelled between members of TTF so people could try stuff. Sadly, some kid kept the box and it was all over.
You HAVE to try stuff for yourself.
Sorry,
Chris

[hyperbolica]

Match rim contours generally by buying from the same manufacturer, or by feel.

My day job has me writing about complex product geometry. I've written books on this type of stuff without writing much math. I think you can classify the shapes generally, maybe visually,

The images at the bottom were produced in CAD to roughly approximate rim half-cross sections. I've left out the inner and outer fillets just to help illustrate.

A fully flat rim will have an inner fillet (generally called the bite) and some outer fillet. Flat rims float over your flesh more evenly because they don't push flesh to the sides as much.

Rounded rims have a big crown in the middle, which to me feels sharp, because it parts the flesh along the crown, acting kind of like a blade. I know round sounds comfortable, but it's really kind of sharp.

Some rims are flat, but angled, if that makes sense. They are actually slightly conical, with the inside being closer to the lip than the outside. To me, this can look flat, but functions more like a rounded rim.

Then of course you've got geometry that's a combination of properties to some greater or lesser degree. Like a flat rim with a slight crown, or wide or narrow rims.

Most drawings I've seen of mouthpieces specify the shape with a series of lines and arcs. This is pretty simplistic geometry. Splines are a type of curve that allows the curvature to vary continuously along itself, so it doesn't lend itself to being completely expressed on a paper drawing unless you have some sort of pre-determined math that goes along with it. This might be what Chris is talking about. Generally these are specified by a CAD file being fed into a CNC machine in what is called g-code. But then a lot of mouthpieces are hand polished, and if this is done too aggressively, you can lose a lot of computer controlled accuracy.

There's always the problem of trying to fit some engineered shape to your mouth. Your teeth generally curve, and the mouthpiece is generally flat. This is part of the reason for the muscles at the corners of the mouth bunching the lips inward - to support the mouthpiece from rocking on the teeth.

[norbie2018]

Thanks for the replies - much appreciated!

[Ted]

You do have the mouthpiece comparator by kanstul for trumpet mouthpieces:

http://kanstul.com/MPcompare/MouthpieceComparator.html

also GR mouthpieces show what alpha angle the rim has and a lot of other stuff only trumpet players care about:

https://www.grmouthpieces.com/category-s/238.htm
https://www.grmouthpieces.com/category-s/236.htm

[tbonesullivan]

Man, there's so much there if you really want to go into it. James New was the mouthpiece guy at Kanstul, and he's now got his own shop. I would assume he uses a similar system. I know that hornguys has CNC profile displays for all the mouthpieces he makes for them.

Still, that's a lot of minutiae right there. I can barely wrap my head around having that many rim profile options.

[timothy42b]

Interesting that we all agree, but the contour as a specific has not come up for discussion very often as I remember it. This is something younger players would do well to note if they intend to double. Typical rim shapes are very complex... when the people who make the Symingtons for Bill first tried to copy the shape of my MV 1 1/2G, they got the rim wrong big time....apparently the curve was slightly different at every point it was measured and confused them.
Doug would be able to say far more about rims I'm sure.

Chris

Ha - that was fun. Asymmetrical curves are a challenge to the uninitiated! Lessons were learned.

That would suggest that clocking the mouthpiece could be important, if it is assymetrical enough, either in rim contour or just circularity. I'm picturing something like a circle stretched a bit so one edge has a smaller radius, and you could turn it until it felt right.

[FOSSIL]

Ha - that was fun. Asymmetrical curves are a challenge to the uninitiated! Lessons were learned.

That would suggest that clocking the mouthpiece could be important, if it is assymetrical enough, either in rim contour or just circularity. I'm picturing something like a circle stretched a bit so one edge has a smaller radius, and you could turn it until it felt right.

No no, the rims are perfectly round and CNC produced. Clock 'em all day and you won't notice any difference... it's the profile of the rim that is asymmetrical...the passage from the inner to outer rim. I remodeled the prototype by hand, so no maths, just feel...and a unique shape.

Chris

[timothy42b]

That would suggest that clocking the mouthpiece could be important, if it is assymetrical enough, either in rim contour or just circularity. I'm picturing something like a circle stretched a bit so one edge has a smaller radius, and you could turn it until it felt right.

No no, the rims are perfectly round and CNC produced. Clock 'em all day and you won't notice any difference... it's the profile of the rim that is asymmetrical...the passage from the inner to outer rim. I remodeled the prototype by hand, so no maths, just feel...and a unique shape.

Chris

So let's make one where the rim is asymmetrical, sort of like a weird shaped wedge. You could turn it based on the tone you wanted.