In praise of the humble Bach 2G

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MoominDave
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In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by MoominDave » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:17 am

Background fact 1) I've owned a VB 2G before; it was a smaller example that I used on euph, and which felt very cramped on bass trombone - bigger than a 3G, but not much bigger.

Background fact 2) I learned bass trombone on a VB 1-1/2G which had slightly odd dimensions - narrower than standard on the face, but with a bigger cup/throat that both complemented and hindered it in different ways.

Background fact 3) In my early 20s, nearly 20 years ago now, I laid my hands on a nice VB 1-1/4G that I quickly came to feel much more at home on than my learner 1-1/2G. It matched very well to the Holton TR181 that I was then playing. Later on, intrigued to explore, and moving on to different bass trombones, I gave many mouthpieces around this size extended trials, but didn't find one that could displace it in my affections. Some 60 or 70 were tried over some years, covering the range from 1-1/2 to huge - 1-1/2 size pieces universally felt cramped, and so I didn't bother with 2 size pieces. Those others that worked best for me tended to be 1-1/4-alikes with a bit more room - the favourite two being a Marcinkiewicz Bill Reichenbach EBT1 and a UMI 1-1/4H.

Background fact 4) A few years ago, Chris Stearn sold me a bone which has so far stopped me from further fiddling on the instrument front. It's a modified-to-independent 1962 Holton 169, and it makes the noise I'm after - full but colourful, with easy access to edge, and loses no trombone quality of tone at a whisper. It has nearly all the good bits of that TR181 that I liked years ago, but all the bad bits are good bits on it also. Every trombone is a trade-off of attributes, but this one less than most. I'm very happy with it.

But the trusty old VB 1-1/4G isn't quite right for it, alas. It can push it over into tonal brutality, and there's a bigger facial adjustment needed when going onto the trigger than I've managed to make work as reliably as I'm comfortable with accepting. I've been using the UMI 1-1/4H with it in recent months, and finding that a happily acceptable change - it needs a bit more grip at the face, but it combines the registers more easily and doesn't brutalise the sound in an undesirable way. Big noises are most reliable.

However - optimising for big noises is all very well when sat in a brass band, but musically daft when playing e.g. the Rhenish symphony with a chamber orchestra, the gig in November at which, curious, I badgered one of the other trombonists to let me use their VB 2G, thinking that it was about time that I tried another one to try to see what the fuss was about - I mean, a lot of really good players use them, right?

Well, blow me down... It just works, does it not? Despite being smaller than the 1-1/2G, I don't feel cramped on it in the lower register in the way that I do on a 1-1/2. I think what's going on is that the 2 lets my chops just sit on it without any muscling around, and its natural tonal brilliance means that I don't get tempted to try facially gripping on to brighten up the sound. The 1-1/2 then is the smallest of a category of the next two larger sizes, before big mouthpieces then demand a third way again of blowing.
The width isn't the whole story - I also have a Klier 3AL, which has pretty similar dimensions, but this lacks brilliance, so I start feeling cramped on it. Ditto the Wick 2AL. It's the overall VB design of the 2G that does it - a perfectly balanced mouthpiece. I've often admired the sounds of 2G players, while thinking "It's a shame that that piece is too small for me". Very happy to find out I was wrong. Whisper it, but it even works rather nicely for brass band low register shouting... Though it's less forgiving work to do so than on something bigger and more open.

Was the 2G the work of old man Bach himself? He knew his stuff...
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by chromebone » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:20 am

I believe Ray Premru played a 2G for his whole career on his Holton 169. If it was good enough for him...
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by hyperbolica » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:34 am

I've settled on a 2G for my euphonium as well. It still gets the upper range, and (almost) takes the stuffiness out of the compensated (trigger) range. I'll also use the 2G on my Olds S-20 small bass if I'm playing 3rd type parts rather than straight up bass bone. I use 1 1/4 for bass bone and a range of DE XT104s for tenor.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by MoominDave » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:44 am

It seems to me that it's commonly reported that players find two sizes comfortable on bass trombone. For me and you it's 2 & 1-1/4. For others I've seen it be very large & 1-1/2.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by tbonesullivan » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:51 am

I know that there are some people who feel that a mpc bigger than a 1 1/2G is too big for a "real bass trombone" sound. Too wide, too diffuse, not "trombone-like" enough. While I don't necessarily agree, there are some people who use REALLY BIG mouthpieces, with huge throats, huge deep cups, and paper thin rims.

For me, most of the time, I found that the 1 1/2G was quite nice. For a good "orchestral" sound it was almost ideal when working with a smaller orchestra. I do have a Yamaha 58 somewhere, but I never really connected with it like I did with the 1 1/2G.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by RoscoTrombone » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:10 am

For me when I transitioned onto bass when I was at Keller Hall I advised by the professor to start on a 4G for a few weeks,then a 3G then I hit the 2G and it stuck. I didn't have any issues with popping out the low stuff so had no inclination to try anything else and it served me very well.

When I left the army I started messing about with other sizes, some very large but most were in the 1.5/1.25 size. I could never settle on the bigger ones but oddly I never tried a standard Bach 1.5 (still haven't played to this day). I would always go back to the 2 & every time it just felt right. That didn't stop me from spending pennies on other pieces though!

I went to see Chris a couple of years ago and if memory serves me correct I was on a Rath 1.5. After being handed a few pieces to try he said "a bit of a curve ball but try this" & lo & behold it was a 2G!

So cue me going off to buy yet another 2G! During the things I was working on with him I had changed again and sold the 2G. I ended up being on a Resonance for over a year when I spied a 2G on ebay & couldn't resist. I didn't use it though until I felt that the AR wasn't doing what I wanted it to so stuck the 2 back in for an orchestra concert and it was like being back home.

When I got wind of the new Symington piece I duly tried one but just couldn't settle on it so when I found out his 2 was ready I got my hands on it and the difference was huge. A 2G on steroids if you will!

I still have the other 2G though and will never sell it just in case!!
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by Tbarh » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:29 pm

A lot of players choose the bass trombone mouthpiece that gives You the biggest pedal register... If More players would dial in the real "cash register", middle F down to pedal Bb more players would end up somewhere around 1 1/2G /2G...better balance between volume and intensity... Even more so in a Holton or Conn..
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by Burgerbob » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:38 pm

Tbarh wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:29 pm
A lot of players choose the bass trombone mouthpiece that gives You the biggest pedal register... If More players would dial in the real "cash register", middle F down to pedal Bb more players would end up somewhere around 1 1/2G /2G...better balance between volume and intensity... Even more so in a Holton or Conn..
I think this is a misconception. I'm sure there are students and amateurs that do it for that reason, but it's not the reason the professional would choose a mouthpiece. The reason those big pieces exist is because they work in all ranges if you put the work in.

The small stuff lets you work easily in some places, but not others. It's a trade off.

That said, one of the best bass trombone sounds I can remember is my friend on a Mt. Vernon 2G and an Elkhart 62H.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by tbonesullivan » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:44 pm

Tbarh wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:29 pm
A lot of players choose the bass trombone mouthpiece that gives You the biggest pedal register... If More players would dial in the real "cash register", middle F down to pedal Bb more players would end up somewhere around 1 1/2G /2G...better balance between volume and intensity... Even more so in a Holton or Conn..
The problem is that more and more current composers seem to use the bass trombone more for "effect" than tone, so they just want some insane blasting F# pedal tones, or lower. So you need those big toilet bowls to accomplish that on cue all the time. That is one of the issues I faced that made me look into mouthpieces larger than a Laskey 85MD.

I found that unless I went for something HUGE, just making the mouthpiece bigger did NOT make a huge difference in range. It's about airflow.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by MoominDave » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:41 pm

Psst... Regarding daft effect writing - big honking pedals are nice on the 2G... Don't work for me at all on the 1-1/2G. It's a mouthpiece miracle, hallelujah! I don't need to make my tone quality chubbily hard work on a big piece to access the fart machine. Which is nice.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by jtbandmusic » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:40 pm

As a senior in college I replaced my 88H with a Olds P24G, and picked up a Bach 2G. Hated it. One of the very mouthpieces I have used there were actually painful to play. Horrible upper and mid range, for all trombone playing. I quickly replaced that with a Schilke 58... MUCH better. I only played the Olds a couple of years and played tenor, but years later I stumbled on a chance to pick up a 60H for $70. Looks like junk, but plays great. At the same time I got a a Conn George Roberts which seems to suit both me and the horn.

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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by MoominDave » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:55 pm

It's funny how individual a thing mouthpiece choice is to player/instrument combo... I had a Schilke 58 once - hated it, found it crippled my playing all over the instrument, and didn't dig the sound it made either. Gave it a fair try then sold it on a year or two later. But then I've never liked any of the Schilke bass trombone mouthpieces that have passed through my hands. Do you like the Bach 1-1/2G better than the 2G? Most of my surprise in this is in the realisation that the 2 does me better for 'big' playing stuff than the 1-1/2.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by Tbarh » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:42 am

Burgerbob wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:38 pm
Tbarh wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:29 pm
A lot of players choose the bass trombone mouthpiece that gives You the biggest pedal register... If More players would dial in the real "cash register", middle F down to pedal Bb more players would end up somewhere around 1 1/2G /2G...better balance between volume and intensity... Even more so in a Holton or Conn..
I think this is a misconception. I'm sure there are students and amateurs that do it for that reason, but it's not the reason the professional would choose a mouthpiece. The reason those big pieces exist is because they work in all ranges if you put the work in.

The small stuff lets you work easily in some places, but not others. It's a trade off.

That said, one of the best bass trombone sounds I can remember is my friend on a Mt. Vernon 2G and an Elkhart 62H.
If its a tradeoff there, i havent found it!
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by Tbarh » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:50 am

I have until recently been playing a Symington 1.5.. I now play a Symington 2..The 2 has a darker sound than the 1.5(also darker than any 1 1/2G i have played).. Goes to show that getting the right balance and match between instrument and mouthpiece means more than number and specs.. Who wants to sound like a contra on a bass anyway..?
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by Posaunus » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:51 am

chromebone wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:20 am
I believe Ray Premru played a 2G for his whole career on his Holton 169. If it was good enough for him...
I understood that Ray Premru switched to a Denis Wick 2AL mouthpiece.
From the Denis Wick Website:

2AL 27.00mm V-type
Designed by Ray Premru, the legendary bass trombonist of the Philharmonia Orchestra and the Philip Jones Brass Ensemble
Like VB 2G but wider rim and better low register


But apparently "MoominDave" didn't get along as well with the Wick 2AL as he did the "humble" Bach 2G.

To each his own!
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by Burgerbob » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:02 am

Tbarh wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:50 am
Who wants to sound like a contra on a bass anyway..?
Again... if you're basing this on students and amateurs, maybe, but no one wants to sound like contra on bass trombone.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by Tbarh » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:41 am

Posaunus wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:51 am
chromebone wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:20 am
I believe Ray Premru played a 2G for his whole career on his Holton 169. If it was good enough for him...
I understood that Ray Premru switched to a Denis Wick 2AL mouthpiece.
From the Denis Wick Website:

2AL 27.00mm V-type
Designed by Ray Premru, the legendary bass trombonist of the Philharmonia Orchestra and the Philip Jones Brass Ensemble
Like VB 2G but wider rim and better low register


But apparently "MoominDave" didn't get along as well with the Wick 2AL as he did the "humble" Bach 2G.

To each his own!
Actually the Denis Wick 2AL are loosely based on Rays 2G... As far as i know he never switched from his modified 2G.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by Tbarh » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:44 am

Burgerbob wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:02 am
Tbarh wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:50 am
Who wants to sound like a contra on a bass anyway..?
Again... if you're basing this on students and amateurs, maybe, but no one wants to sound like contra on bass trombone.
Like i said.. :good:
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by harrisonreed » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:53 am

It's just a simple matter of having the right cup width, rim width/shape, cup depth, cup shape (SO IMPORTANT), throat entrance and diameter, backbore shape....

Easy....

Oh wait...
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by MoominDave » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:57 am

Posaunus wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:51 am
But apparently "MoominDave" didn't get along as well with the Wick 2AL as he did the "humble" Bach 2G.
Indeed he didn't. It seemed to lack for me the colour of tone that I think is key to this unexpected local maximum in the mouthpiece parameter space. But perhaps I should try one on my current trombone, as the comparison is currently somewhat apples/oranges. On 88H I prefer Wick 4AL to VB 4G, liking similar differences where I disliked them for bass in the 2 size. But then on less lively sounding large tenors I find the 4AL a bit too much like hard work.

Apparently I seem mysterious - you're not the first respondent to seem to want my identity made more obvious. I'm not in the habit of being an anonymous internet person (I just hadn't got around to filling in my profile info here yet) - so I've added both profile info and a signature. I'd wondered if leaving a signature off could avoid the whole "Oo, are you *that* Dave Taylor?" "No, no, I'm not" conversation that I tend to have regularly in trombone spaces online, but, you know, it's my name...
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by MoominDave » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:02 am

harrisonreed wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:53 am
It's just a simple matter of having the right cup width, rim width/shape, cup depth, cup shape (SO IMPORTANT), throat entrance and diameter, backbore shape....

Easy....

Oh wait...
<like>
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by edgrissom » Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:53 am

Tooth structure, lip size, oral cavity size all have so much to do with what works for us. No one is the same and we all have to find what works for us and stick with it. That can take time to find.
Also, things can change over time and we have to adjust occasionally.

(sarcasm font) "You wear a size 11 shoe? That NEVER works for me. I wear a size 12 and that is what YOU should wear."
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by EdwardSolomon » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:13 am

Burgerbob wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:38 pm
That said, one of the best bass trombone sounds I can remember is my friend on a Mt. Vernon 2G and an Elkhart 62H.
That's my combo. I use a Minick modified Elkhart Conn 62H and a Mount Vernon Bach 2G. They just work. If that combination worked for Bob Hughes (a most worthy successor to Ray Premru in the Philharmonia Orchestra) and still works for James Buckle (the current incumbent), it most certainly works well enough for me.

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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by BGuttman » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:53 am

Nice pic, Ed. :good:

As we keep repeating in a lot of threads here and on the old TTF: "It's not the size of the arrow, it's the size of the Indian". And here we're talking about Native Americans.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by ArbanRubank » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:32 am

This thread has changed my mind-set on the Bach 2G. I had thought it was a trash mouthpiece that could not be used for credible melodic lows on even a single-trigger bass trombone. But I decided to have at a little experiment this morning with it, a 1.5G and a 1.25G.

I play against Band-in-a-Box with RealTracks almost exclusively now. So I cued up the song "Tenderly" and played it down a few octaves on each mouthpiece. I was able - on all three of them - to work down to a very nice pedal F in the melody line. I could not tell any appreciable difference in sound between the three, but it was much easier to make transitions between lows and highs on the smaller Bach 2G. That and I found it is much less work to play as high as I can on it.

I have been in search of a mouthpiece for my single-trigger bass that would allow me to have it function as an all-purpose horn; playing very low melodically and as high as I possibly can as well - while attaining the best sound I can make. I have tentatively concluded that for what I want to do, the 2G performs very well in all respects and it is not worth the extra effort on the other two larger mouthpieces - especially when it comes time to play high.

Thanks, guys!
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by Eyedoc » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:45 am

Are these positive responses with the 2G with modern stock VB 2G as available to purchase now or with magical Mt Vernon productions that are a rarity to find?
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by ArbanRubank » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:48 am

Eyedoc wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:45 am
Are these positive responses with the 2G with modern stock VB 2G as available to purchase now or with magical Mt Vernon productions that are a rarity to find?
Mine is a brand-new one, from Hickeys (if I may).
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by EdwardSolomon » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:23 am

Eyedoc wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:45 am
Are these positive responses with the 2G with modern stock VB 2G as available to purchase now or with magical Mt Vernon productions that are a rarity to find?
I've had almost identical results with a Corporation 2G. Compared with the Mount Vernon 2G, there is a bit less presence and the sound is appreciably less lively, but to the untrained ear or someone who has never experienced the Mount Vernon 2G, the differences would be irrelevant. It's the size that works best for the older bass trombones, that's for sure. I've always maintained that to get the best out of the old Conns and Holtons, you need something no larger than a 1.5G.

An experiment I tried when performing on the contrabass trombone in Verdi's Macbeth in November 2018: I loaned the bass trombonist (we were a 4-man trombone section, viz. 2 tenors, bass, contrabass) my MV 2G and instantly the section came to life with the bass trombone gaining its own voice instead of merging with that of the contrabass trombone. Larger mouthpieces work reasonably well if the lowest voice is the bass trombone or tuba, but once it becomes an inner voice above another trombone, it can easily get lost because the timbre loses its distinctive voice unless the performer is really capable of holding his own.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by RConrad » Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:31 am

MoominDave wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:57 am
Posaunus wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:51 am
But apparently "MoominDave" didn't get along as well with the Wick 2AL as he did the "humble" Bach 2G.
Indeed he didn't. It seemed to lack for me the colour of tone that I think is key to this unexpected local maximum in the mouthpiece parameter space. But perhaps I should try one on my current trombone, as the comparison is currently somewhat apples/oranges. On 88H I prefer Wick 4AL to VB 4G, liking similar differences where I disliked them for bass in the 2 size. But then on less lively sounding large tenors I find the 4AL a bit too much like hard work.

Apparently I seem mysterious - you're not the first respondent to seem to want my identity made more obvious. I'm not in the habit of being an anonymous internet person (I just hadn't got around to filling in my profile info here yet) - so I've added both profile info and a signature. I'd wondered if leaving a signature off could avoid the whole "Oo, are you *that* Dave Taylor?" "No, no, I'm not" conversation that I tend to have regularly in trombone spaces online, but, you know, it's my name...
I may be wrong but I believe the DW 2AL is more similar to a Bach 1 1/2G. I've been meaning to give a 2AL and 3AL a try though as I get along really well with DW mouthpieces. Might try to get my hands on a inexpensive 2G though.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by MoominDave » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:17 pm

Eyedoc wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:45 am
Are these positive responses with the 2G with modern stock VB 2G as available to purchase now or with magical Mt Vernon productions that are a rarity to find?
Mine's second-hand, but newer than MV
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by MoominDave » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:26 pm

RConrad wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:31 am
I may be wrong but I believe the DW 2AL is more similar to a Bach 1 1/2G. I've been meaning to give a 2AL and 3AL a try though as I get along really well with DW mouthpieces. Might try to get my hands on a inexpensive 2G though.
I keep a spreadsheet of measurements of most mouthpieces that pass through my hands. According to that, the single 2AL I've measured is bang in the middle of the pair of 2Gs I've measured.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by mrdeacon » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:44 pm

For what it's worth... I've found both the Mount Vernons and Symington to be night and day better than modern counterparts, including Corp. 2Gs.

The Mount Vernons all seem to have slightly larger rims and more open backbones. Rims are a bit wider too.

If you're looking for a awesome 2g without having to sift through a bunch of Mount Vernons make sure to check out the Symington 2. It's knocked everything else out of my horn! Though I might be a little biased towards bill's stuff! I'm a big fan!
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by RConrad » Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:35 am

MoominDave wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:26 pm
I keep a spreadsheet of measurements of most mouthpieces that pass through my hands. According to that, the single 2AL I've measured is bang in the middle of the pair of 2Gs I've measured.
Interesting. I'll have to get my hands on one then and see how I like it.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by Carolus » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:46 am

For one reason or the other I never have come to terms with the Bach 2G. On my horn a 1.5 size always felt better. Even tried a Laskey 85MD for a while but then moved back to 1.5 size piece before reaching nirvana with the Symington 1.5 Zr. However, I have not tried the Symington 2 Zr...
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by MoominDave » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:00 am

RConrad wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:35 am
MoominDave wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:26 pm
I keep a spreadsheet of measurements of most mouthpieces that pass through my hands. According to that, the single 2AL I've measured is bang in the middle of the pair of 2Gs I've measured.
Interesting. I'll have to get my hands on one then and see how I like it.
The Klier 2AL on the other hand is bigger - 3AL is the 2G size piece in their range.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by MoominDave » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:53 am

Carolus wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:46 am
For one reason or the other I never have come to terms with the Bach 2G. On my horn a 1.5 size always felt better. Even tried a Laskey 85MD for a while but then moved back to 1.5 size piece before reaching nirvana with the Symington 1.5 Zr. However, I have not tried the Symington 2 Zr...
I have the first stirrings of a theory... It feels like not many people like both 1.5 and 2. Is that correct?
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by EdwardSolomon » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:50 am

MoominDave wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:53 am
I have the first stirrings of a theory... It feels like not many people like both 1.5 and 2. Is that correct?
I've used both successfully. I used to use the 1.5G a good number of years ago, though. I had both Bach and Rath 1.5G variants and used them in the R9DST.

After purchasing a MV 2G from fellow forumite, Savio, I haven't looked back. As Chris Stearn warned me, though, it responds best to frequent use. Your chops become used to it and to getting the best out of it and honestly, I have found that to be true. It's little wonder the 2G is the tool of choice for the professional orchestral bass trombonist in the UK. I know Christian Jones gets all of his students on them, as does Bob Hughes, I think. It becomes a very efficient implement to save your chops and let the instrument do the hard work, but only with regular use and lots of practice.

Any time I deviate from the 2G for whatever reason, e.g. time on the contra or the tenor, or even digging out the 1-1/4 size Ferguson L, I come right back to the 2G and it feels like coming home.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by hyperbolica » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:24 am

The 2g to me is not my favorite mouthpiece, but if I had to pick a single mouthpiece and only play on that for everything, it would have to be my 2g. It's not perfect for tenor, aside from 3rd parts, and it's not perfect for bass, except maybe stuff that goes down to D or so.

The problem is that I don't need to pick a single mouthpiece, so I only play 2g on euphonium because it doesn't mess with my tenor or bass chops at all.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by MoominDave » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:45 am

EdwardSolomon wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:50 am
MoominDave wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:53 am
I have the first stirrings of a theory... It feels like not many people like both 1.5 and 2. Is that correct?
I've used both successfully. I used to use the 1.5G a good number of years ago, though.
How did you feel about the 2 back then? How do you feel about the 1.5 now?
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by EdwardSolomon » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:52 am

MoominDave wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:45 am
How did you feel about the 2 back then? How do you feel about the 1.5 now?
Difficult to say because I have never owned both at the same time. I sold off all the 1.5 size mouthpieces before 2014 and only acquired the 2G in 2016. Back then, I did try the Rath B2/B2W, I think, which is based on the MV 2G, but didn't care for it, as I tended towards the larger B1.5, though that really feels on the large side of 1.5 compared with a Bach. I always used to think the 2G was too small to make work well in the bass trombone, but how wrong I was! It's not the mouthpiece that works well, it's the chops that work well. The 2G just acts as a vehicle to make the embouchure more efficient. And everything except for really low register stuff feels a whole let less like hard work.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by Posaunus » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:31 pm

EdwardSolomon wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:50 am
It's little wonder the 2G is the tool of choice for the professional orchestral bass trombonist in the UK. I know Christian Jones gets all of his students on them, as does Bob Hughes, I think. It becomes a very efficient implement to save your chops and let the instrument do the hard work, but only with regular use and lots of practice.
On Tuesday, I attended a concert of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra on tour here in California. Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 5, conducted by Pinchas Zukerman. I don't know what mouthpiece the bass trombonist (Josh Cirtina) was using, but the entire low brass section - especially the bass trombone - made a substantial (and satisfying) noise (assisted by the excellent acoustics of Segerstrom Concert Hall). Sounded as good as anything we typically hear in the U.S.A. :good:
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by EdwardSolomon » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:58 am

Posaunus wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:31 pm
On Tuesday, I attended a concert of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra on tour here in California. Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 5, conducted by Pinchas Zukerman. I don't know what mouthpiece the bass trombonist (Josh Cirtina) was using, but the entire low brass section - especially the bass trombone - made a substantial (and satisfying) noise (assisted by the excellent acoustics of Segerstrom Concert Hall). Sounded as good as anything we typically hear in the U.S.A. :good:
I can't say what mouthpiece Josh Cirtina plays on, but I do know he now uses an Elkhart Conn 62H. That's now four London orchestras, in which the bass trombonist uses the Elkhart Conn 62H: Philharmonia (James Buckle), BBC Symphony (Rob O'Neill), Royal Philharmonic (Josh Cirtina), Royal Opera House (Keith McNicoll).
Last edited by EdwardSolomon on Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by MoominDave » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:09 am

I feel like I remember seeing him say somewhere recently that he plays 2G and 1-1/2G. Don't quote me on that though - I couldn't find it when I went to look.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by Bach5G » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:15 pm

Speaking of Chris Jones, I came across this tonight. In one of the comments it is said he is playing a 2G in a modern Conn 62.

https://youtu.be/opa8yNCIQ-g
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by FOSSIL » Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:53 am

Bach5G wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:15 pm
Speaking of Chris Jones, I came across this tonight. In one of the comments it is said he is playing a 2G in a modern Conn 62.

https://youtu.be/opa8yNCIQ-g
Christian has two identical Conn 62HI instruments...a hangover from the Philharmonia days with one instrument on the truck and one at home.
Interesting that this thread has surfaced again. One of my lockdown projects has been to see if I could finally get into the 2G. It was the first bass mouthpiece I had (with a Conn 73H) and as a kid I was keen to graduate to a bigger mouthpiece, so after a couple of years, it went.
Over the next 50 years I tried the 2G on many occasions, but there was never enough down time to get into it. No excuse now !
All the bass players that I most admired played the 2G and it is most popular amongst pro players in the UK now. Worse than that, almost all my students in recent years have gone on to one...never at my suggestion!!
Well, over 6 months in and I am loving it. It is great on the pedals...even valve pedals and transitions through registers like nothing else. Funnily, the upper register is quite hard work, but sounds like a trombone, not a hooting owl.
The sound is big in the orchestra in all registers and totally different from the 1 1/2G, hopefully in a good way.
Forget big and small, it is simply a way to get a particular sound...what I might call the British sound, and most of those in the US would not get the concept at all.
On going project .

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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by EdwardSolomon » Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:57 am

FOSSIL wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:53 am
The sound is big in the orchestra in all registers and totally different from the 1 1/2G, hopefully in a good way.
The 2G doesn't require as much physical effort as larger mouthpieces and it's a lot more comfortable for long periods than larger mouthpieces. I find that the 2G can cut through very easily, though, so it needs much defter control. It's a different style of playing, compared with larger mouthpieces, where the effort goes into controlling and shaping the sound more than the physical effort of blowing and being heard. Once you get into the groove, it is a fantastic mouthpiece that never lets the bass trombone fade into the general mêlée and always retains its presence. This mouthpiece is an essential component in the sound of people like Ray Premru amd Bob Hughes and part of what made their sound so distinctive and instantly audible.
Last edited by EdwardSolomon on Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by modelerdc » Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:33 am

Actually I think that sound can work in the US, especially in section work, just don't tell people what you are playing because if they think you are playing on what they think is a small mouthpiece, it will affect how they hear! There are a couple of factors here that drive players to play really big equipment. 1st of course is the successful example of some leading players who can handle really large equipment. Few stop to ask if these players are outliers. 2nd so many young players are exposed to trombone choirs where what's expected is a contra bass like sound and this from young players who very often are still developing their fundamentals. So really big mouthpiece = quick fat low range. 3rd in the US the contra bass trombone is rare enough that players are expected to be able to play these parts on their regular bass trombone. You might sound great on a 2G but may be at a disadvantage when the other guys are using Laskey 93Ds to play the parts down to pedal E in Wagner. An example of this is one very well known player bragging that the contra bass trombone had never been used in the orchestra he played in. A fine player, but typical of the the American school, Schilke 60, no lead pipe, dual thayers. This thinking might change as cimbassos and contras become more commonly used when appropriate, but it will take time.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by Bach5G » Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:50 am

“The sound is big in the orchestra in all registers and totally different from the 1 1/2G ...”

I’m curious about this statement. I was going through my mpcs today and tried my Yam 58, which I think is 2G-sized. Nothing to immediately recommend it was my impression.
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by FOSSIL » Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:34 am

Bach5G wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:50 am
“The sound is big in the orchestra in all registers and totally different from the 1 1/2G ...”

I’m curious about this statement. I was going through my mpcs today and tried my Yam 58, which I think is 2G-sized. Nothing to immediately recommend it was my impression.
I've played and owned 2G size mouthpieces that were garbage.... it's not about size, it's about the Bach 2G as a design...especially the older ones...but not exclusively the older ones. You really have to change your playing approach to make these mouthpieces work....Ive needed the lockdown to give one a fair trial. That is from a 1 1/2G....if you play bigger, I would hesitate to recommend trying one.
It's time to bust a couple of myths....
It's not harder to play low and loud on a 2G compared to large mouthpieces like a Laskey 95D....
You don't sound small on a 2G if you learn how to play it...

Chris
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Re: In praise of the humble Bach 2G

Post by Burgerbob » Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:05 am

FOSSIL wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:34 am

I've played and owned 2G size mouthpieces that were garbage.... it's not about size, it's about the Bach 2G as a design...especially the older ones...

Chris
Exactly. The Yamaha 58 is not anything like a 2G. Not much magic in the 58.
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