TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

[EdwardSolomon]

You know, I'm really sick to death of people who have done nothing, criticizing a person who has at least done something, for not doing enough.

Spare me the righteous indignation. I’m not critiquing Doug Yeo or anyone else. All I’m saying is that if we are to tackle the question of racism in music, pick something that really counts.

Have a nice day.

[Redthunder]

Spare me the righteous indignation. I’m not critiquing Doug Yeo or anyone else. All I’m saying is that if we are to tackle the question of racism in music, pick something that really counts.

Have a nice day.

“If it doesn’t ‘really count’ to me, then it must not ‘really count’ to anybody else.”

This is a really selfish way to assume that this affects you the same way that it affects everyone else. And frankly, you’re from the UK, so what right do you have to make judgement calls about what’s a worthy cause for other Americans, dealing with American racism from an American composer. You are just not thinking about how this might be viewed differently from someone much much closer to the heart of it than you are.

[brtnats]

You know, I'm really sick to death of people who have done nothing, criticizing a person who has at least done something, for not doing enough.

I can’t not respond to the unbound pretentiousness you’re displaying. Your Pelosi clapback was rude for this forum, but this is beyond that. You cannot possibly know what some of us have done in this fight. You cannot possibly know the sacrifices and compromises and battles people give and wage and engage in though the myopic window of a trombone chat forum on the internet. You want to see somebody essentilaizing people? You’re doing it.

People can disagree about topics without being evil people! The amount of whitesplaining going on around this topic is bonkers. Ed Solomon makes the same points I did and gets chastised just as roughly because you are not interested in a discussion on race and representation in music. What practical experience do most of us have with this topic? Micha Davis has a lot. Wycliffe has a lot. Edward Solomon has a lot. Doug Yeo does not. Why are you all so keen to dance on this particular grave without looking at the actual problems you claim you’re addressing? Why is your certainty so fragile when confronted with counterexamples?

[Redthunder]

I can’t not respond to the unbound pretentiousness you’re displaying. Your Pelosi clapback was rude for this forum, but this is beyond that. You cannot possibly know what some of us have done in this fight. You cannot possibly know the sacrifices and compromises and battles people give and wage and engage in though the myopic window of a trombone chat forum on the internet. You want to see somebody essentilaizing people? You’re doing it.

People can disagree about topics without being evil people! The amount of whitesplaining going on around this topic is bonkers. Ed Solomon makes the same points I did and gets chastised just as roughly because you are not interested in a discussion on race and representation in music. What practical experience do most of us have with this topic? Micha Davis has a lot. Wycliffe has a lot. Edward Solomon has a lot. Doug Yeo does not. Why are you all so keen to dance on this particular grave without looking at the actual problems you claim you’re addressing? Why is your certainty so fragile when confronted with counterexamples?

I thought you were done posting here?

[EdwardSolomon]

“If it doesn’t ‘really count’ to me, then it must not ‘really count’ to anybody else.”

This is a really selfish way to assume that this affects you the same way that it affects everyone else. And frankly, you’re from the UK, so what right do you have to make judgement calls about what’s a worthy cause for other Americans, dealing with American racism from an American composer. You are just not thinking about how this might be viewed differently from someone much much closer to the heart of it than you are.

UK trombonists need not apply. I get it. So it’s OK if we play Fillmore, then, is it? How about the Horst-Wessel Lied, too, while we are about it?

Don’t get me wrong: I read you loud and clear. It’s a great pity the inverse isn’t true.

[Redthunder]

UK trombonists need not apply. I get it. So it’s OK if we play Fillmore, then, is it? How about the Horst-Wessel Lied, too, while we are about it?

Don’t get me wrong: I read you loud and clear. It’s a great pity the inverse isn’t true.

No, your argument is nearly identical to the one made over and over again by Timothy42b, brtnats, and BGuttman.

You just don’t have a right to tell others that the racism here isn’t “worthy” of the attention it’s getting.

People can do two things at once you know.

[brtnats]

I was done arguing with you, kid. But while we’re at it...

A white guy from Philadelphia doesn’t get to be the arbiter of what’s racist either. He certainly doesn’t get a free pass to explain racism to a British POC. Check your privilege.

[Redthunder]

I was done arguing with you, kid. But while we’re at it...

A white guy from Philadelphia doesn’t get to be the arbiter of what’s racist either. He certainly doesn’t get a free pass to explain racism to a British POC. Check your privilege.

Lol, “kid”.

Tell me more about how rude Brad is.

[brtnats]

Lol, “kid”.

Tell me more about how rude Brad is.
[/quote]

Profile says you’re 27. Public profiles agree. I have tools as old as you.

[Redthunder]

Profile says you’re 27. Public profiles agree. I have tools as old as you.

How’s that adage go? I think it’s apt when talking about tools.

“Takes one to know one”

I’m not hiding anything about myself. I buy, sell, and post freely using my info all the time. Is this really the direction you want to go?

[mrpillow]

First warning to all - keep the ad hominem nonsense to your personal conversations or this thread won't be open much longer.

Stay on topic or move it offline.

[Bach5G]

Time to ditch this thread.

[sungfw]

Totally agree, but I also think Fillmore is a soft target. He is relatively speaking a nobody. We are dancing around the elephant in the room. Big deal, Fillmore was a racist and his music can be quietly shelved for good. No great loss. neither man nor music. But someone with much more clout? A Wagner or a Chopin, even someone like Percy Grainger? Much harder

If anything, the whole BLM affair should be making us question racism - all of it. And if we are doing it in music, then there are no excuses. Absolutely not a single one.

You're right: Fillmore IS a soft target, and classical music—from organizations to promoters to musicians to audiences—HAVE danced and CONTINUE TO dance around the elephants in the orchestra pit and on the opera stage. And, yes, if we are going to address the problem of racism—both overt and covert—in music, we need, ultimately, to address it root and branch. But the reckoning has to start somewhere, and soft targets like Fillmore's Trombone Family, around which there is largely a consensus on their relative lack of "artistic merit," (however one chooses to define the phrase) are a good place start. The alternative to starting with soft targets is not starting at all.

[Redthunder]

Even though I didn’t think I had to, I’m going to clarify since it was brought up that my comment to Edward was prompted by his saying this topic about Fillmore was trivial compared to others. It’s not trivial and it’s grossly unfair to say that this example of racism in music isn’t worth discussing and that we should save our energy for “the big examples of it.”

I said the same thing to Timothy42b, several pages ago.

[brassmedic]

You know, I'm really sick to death of people who have done nothing, criticizing a person who has at least done something, for not doing enough.

Spare me the righteous indignation. I’m not critiquing Doug Yeo or anyone else. All I’m saying is that if we are to tackle the question of racism in music, pick something that really counts.

Have a nice day.

O.K., tell us what you have done toward furthering that goal.

[brassmedic]

Even though I didn’t think I had to, I’m going to clarify since it was brought up that my comment to Edward was prompted by his saying this topic about Fillmore was trivial compared to others. It’s not trivial and it’s grossly unfair to say that this example of racism in music isn’t worth discussing and that we should save our energy for “the big examples of it.”

I said the same thing to Timothy42b, several pages ago.

I absolutely agree. In my opinion, comments like this are exactly the same as people shouting "ALL lives matter" in response to "Black lives matter". They aren't really trying to get their point across; they're just trying to minimalize your point.

[timothy42b]

From the start of this thread I have tried to talk about a serious question: if something, for example art, is abhorrent at one point, must it remain so forever, or is it possible to be rehabilitated? I can think of examples where pieces went the other direction - songs that were written for one purpose then adopted by groups with bad intent.

If the answer is no, unequivocally no, that is a defendable position. It will lead to some awkward conclusions, but we aren't entitled to be spared those. I'm not sure it's always true though. I know that the politically correct here will not consider this question and will just shout me down.

With respect to Lassus being called trivial, that is in no way shouting all lives matter. It is a recognition that there are serious racial issues here that dwarf anything to do with that piece. Sorry, there are. The impact of not playing it is realistically zero for most though not all of us.

I feel like people get their feelings hurt if every single forum member doesn't proclaim them wonderful for being woke enough to recognize Lassus has a bad past. And those hurt feelings are the driver of most of the flame on this thread.

For a proposed moral action: does it make a difference? does it ask something of me? (pareto in process improvement)

Abandoning Lassus will realistically not matter to anybody outside here, either as help or harm, and not much in here. It can still be the moral thing to do. But it would never be the first thing one would do.

But dropping a song you don't even like? What did that cost you? Not a single person here said "I'm serious about fighting racism, I won't play Lassus, and I also............................"

[GabrielRice]

I feel like people get their feelings hurt if every single forum member doesn't proclaim them wonderful for being woke enough to recognize Lassus has a bad past. And those hurt feelings are the driver of most of the flame on this thread.

Seriously, Tim? That's the driver of the flame on this thread? That's a backwards way of putting it. The driver of the flame on this thread is that people can't bear to let go of something just because it's racially offensive.

But dropping a song you don't even like? What did that cost you? Not a single person here said "I'm serious about fighting racism, I won't play Lassus, and I also............................"

OK, I'll bite. I like this exercise, and I sometimes challenge people the same way.

I'm serious about fighting racism, I won't play Lassus, and I also listen to Black people in my life when they tell me what their lives are like, work to educate myself in how to be a better ally, and give money to the Equal Justice Initiative and the ACLU every month. It's a start.

[EdwardSolomon]

Ditch Fillmore. Stop performing all his works. I understand the motivation behind doing so. But it’s low-hanging fruit of limited value. Nobody is really going to notice it except a bunch of trombonists who’ve spent untold hours wringing their hands over a relatively unknown composer whose works are really only well-known to them.

The world will only change when a serious challenge to racism in music is brought about, one that doesn’t only concern practitioners of a rather marginal brass instrument, but one that affects the entire musical world, performers, promoters, audiences - the lot.

I stand resolutely behind Micha Davis’ challenge. If this isn’t just gesture politics and virtue signalling and people want to effect real change, we have to be the change we want to see and while that may start with Fillmore, it goes much, much further. The problem, as always, is where does it end?

[Bach5G]

Edward:

Wagner in or out?
Otello in or out?

[brtnats]

I feel like people get their feelings hurt if every single forum member doesn't proclaim them wonderful for being woke enough to recognize Lassus has a bad past. And those hurt feelings are the driver of most of the flame on this thread.

Seriously, Tim? That's the driver of the flame on this thread? That's a backwards way of putting it. The driver of the flame on this thread is that people can't bear to let go of something just because it's racially offensive.

But dropping a song you don't even like? What did that cost you? Not a single person here said "I'm serious about fighting racism, I won't play Lassus, and I also............................"

OK, I'll bite. I like this exercise, and I sometimes challenge people the same way.

I'm serious about fighting racism, I won't play Lassus, and I also listen to Black people in my life when they tell me what their lives are like, work to educate myself in how to be a better ally, and give money to the Equal Justice Initiative and the ACLU every month. It's a start.

Gabe: The fact you insist it’s a backwards way of putting it says you’re not listening to what we’re saying. The equally culpable driver of this thread is that some people insist on a morally superior position, on an anthill, and are frothing at the mouth when reasonable questions are asked about the position. I don’t care if we ever play Fillmore again. But if we want to dismiss Fillmore on these grounds, which some people find dubious for the multitude of reasons summarily dismissed in this thread, then we need to be able to have constructive conversations about Wagner and the major western canon without a bunch of people crying foul.

[WilliamLang]

i'm serious about fighting racism, and I will never (and have never) perform(ed) Lassus Trombone or any other piece from Henry Fillmore's collection of pieces in that vein. In addition, I will continue to work with BIPOC composer at every opportunity, and help address the balance of composers represented who would write pieces for our instrument.

[brassmedic]

Seriously, Tim? That's the driver of the flame on this thread? That's a backwards way of putting it. The driver of the flame on this thread is that people can't bear to let go of something just because it's racially offensive.




OK, I'll bite. I like this exercise, and I sometimes challenge people the same way.

I'm serious about fighting racism, I won't play Lassus, and I also listen to Black people in my life when they tell me what their lives are like, work to educate myself in how to be a better ally, and give money to the Equal Justice Initiative and the ACLU every month. It's a start.

Gabe: The fact you insist it’s a backwards way of putting it says you’re not listening to what we’re saying. The equally culpable driver of this thread is that some people insist on a morally superior position, on an anthill, and are frothing at the mouth when reasonable questions are asked about the position. I don’t care if we ever play Fillmore again. But if we want to dismiss Fillmore on these grounds, which some people find dubious for the multitude of reasons summarily dismissed in this thread, then we need to be able to have constructive conversations about Wagner and the major western canon without a bunch of people crying foul.

"Frothing at the mouth"? And I'm the one being rude?

[GabrielRice]

In the spirit of full disclosure, I skipped pages 2-4 of this topic. So maybe it's true I'm not listening to what you're saying.

I'm saying this one is simple. Just don't play it. Next topic.

[BGuttman]

Easy on the personal attacks, guys. I'm glad Byron has checked in as traffic cop. If I shut this down there would be all kinds of complaints of prejudice.

Fact remains, "The Trombone Family" represents a very small part of Fillmore's output. It was characteristic of a genre that has basically gone away. In its day composers and performers all participated. Robcat showed a bunch of pieces by Black composers all more obnoxious than Fillmore's. Why did they do it? To make a buck.

Don't want to perform these pieces? Have at it. But to trash them with 21st Century "Woke" attitude is unfair to the time they were written. Note that Pryor's "Coon Band Revue" has been reissued under a more benign title ("Cakewalk Contest"?). We still perform "Darktown Strutters' Ball", but I'll bet most of the audience hasn't any idea it's not "woke".

[GabrielRice]

Don't want to perform these pieces? Have at it. But to trash them with 21st Century "Woke" attitude is unfair to the time they were written.

Sorry, Bruce. That doesn't cut it. Lots of things that were commonplace in the past are considered abhorrent now. You can't just excuse them by saying it was a different time.

[GBP]

You know, I'm really sick to death of people who have done nothing, criticizing a person who has at least done something, for not doing enough.

Spare me the righteous indignation. I’m not critiquing Doug Yeo or anyone else. All I’m saying is that if we are to tackle the question of racism in music, pick something that really counts.

Have a nice day.

I am ready to not play Wagner anymore. I didn’t realize how hurtful hearing his music is to some of the Jewish faith. I will add other composers to that list as I become more informed, such as Grainger.

[Schlitz]

Don't want to perform these pieces? Have at it. But to trash them with 21st Century "Woke" attitude is unfair to the time they were written.

Sorry, Bruce. That doesn't cut it. Lots of things that were commonplace in the past are considered abhorrent now. You can't just excuse them by saying it was a different time.

Well then to be fair, take away the materials you find racist, or otherwise offensive. That won't change anything. Fillmore was more successful than you, me, lots of other people commenting here. That publishing house was with his brothers. By chance have you bothered with reading their histories? Fillmore was, and is a far more superior composer, musician, bandleader than Doug Yeo. Is this his first blast at Fillmore? No. Quite incidentally, or by design, Doug has also gotten the ITA Awards Committee into a controversy this week as well. I don't think you, or Doug would've made the cut for one of Fillmore's bands either.

[Burgerbob]

Sorry, Bruce. That doesn't cut it. Lots of things that were commonplace in the past are considered abhorrent now. You can't just excuse them by saying it was a different time.

Well then to be fair, take away the materials you find racist, or otherwise offensive. That won't change anything. Fillmore was more successful than you, me, lots of other people commenting here. That publishing house was with his brothers. By chance have you bothered with reading their histories? Fillmore was, and is a far more superior composer, musician, bandleader than Doug Yeo. Is this his first blast at Fillmore? No. Quite incidentally, or by design, Doug has also gotten the ITA Awards Committee into a controversy this week as well. I don't think you, or Doug would've made the cut for one of Fillmore's bands either.

Why does success matter?

[GabrielRice]

Schlitz, what does how I might do in Fillmore's band have to do with anything? And how is that not a personal attack that gets you censored on this forum?

And the only reason Fillmore's financial success has any relevance to this thread is the fact that a good deal of it was made literally by exploiting ugly caricatures of Black people. Profit from racist exploitation. Remind you of anything? Slavery maybe?

Why oh why is it so hard to just decide not to play these pieces because people living now find them offensive? And not just the Black people who have to deal with this crap every day of their lives, but also White people who just want to do and be better.

When my wife asks me to do or not do things I typically comply, just because she cared enough about it to ask me. Why is so hard to just stop playing these pieces?

[brassmedic]

Ditch Fillmore. Stop performing all his works. I understand the motivation behind doing so. But it’s low-hanging fruit of limited value. Nobody is really going to notice it except a bunch of trombonists who’ve spent untold hours wringing their hands over a relatively unknown composer whose works are really only well-known to them.

This is such a dismissive and pompous way to say something, AND if you had paid any kind of attention in this thread, you would know that nobody even said we should stop performing all Fillmore's works. My plan is to simply not perform the ones that are part of the "7 Niggah Smears" from the "cullu'd fambly". You want to keep playing and promoting them? - be my guest. I choose not to, and if you want to judge me and say I'm insincere and going after low hanging fruit, go ahead, because I couldn't care less about your opinion.

[Schlitz]

Schlitz, what does how I might do in Fillmore's band have to do with anything? And how is that not a personal attack that gets you censored on this forum?

And the only reason Fillmore's financial success has any relevance to this thread is the fact that a good deal of it was made literally by exploiting ugly caricatures of Black people. Profit from racist exploitation. Remind you of anything? Slavery maybe?

Why oh why is it so hard to just decide not to play these pieces because people living now find them offensive? And not just the Black people who have to deal with this crap every day of their lives, but also White people who just want to do and be better.

When my wife asks me to do or not do things I typically comply, just because she cared enough about it to ask me. Why is so hard to just stop playing these pieces?

It's a critical credibility issue. There's more to Fillmore than the Trombone Family of smears. I should have the choice to play them, or not. There are editions without the racist material. If you're speaking to me as an authority as to what is racist, yet you can't perform at his level, or have his output of work, I say sour grapes, and a lack of talent. Go ahead and hate him, his work, all you want. I'm asking would you pass Fillmore's rubric for performance and admission, for tenure in his band, talent for composition, and match his ability to lead a band? Are you at that level? Then, do you have the ability/credibility to condemn him?

[Burgerbob]

Schlitz, please read the rest of the posts in this topic.

Also, not a great argument.

[GabrielRice]

What a ridiculous argument. Buh-bye.

[Schlitz]

Schlitz, please read the rest of the posts in this topic.

Also, not a great argument.

Here's another one without a job, or at that level. How is that noted educators, like William P Foster, and Charles Bing performed these works regularly, and incorporated them into their teaching techniques? How can you not be familiar with them?

Here it is again at page 6. What's the opener? Was Lassus Prof Bing's favorite? Try reading that.

https://www.marching100alumni.com/resou ... ituary.pdf

[Burgerbob]

Schlitz, please read the rest of the posts in this topic.

Also, not a great argument.

Here's another one without a job, or at that level. How is that noted educators, like William P Foster, and Charles Bing performed these works regularly, and incorporated them into their teaching techniques? How can you not be familiar with them?

Here it is again at page 6. What's the opener? Was Lassus Prof Bing's favorite? Try reading that.

https://www.marching100alumni.com/resou ... ituary.pdf

I literally have a job, playing Lassus Trombone every day. Hopefully not anymore.

[mrpillow]

Any further accusations about who does or doesn’t suck at playing trombone will be removed.

[GabrielRice]

OK Schlitz, complete this sentence:

I don't think it's racist to play Lassus Trombone, but I'm committed to combating racism in real and meaningful ways, so I ________________________.

[BGuttman]

...
And the only reason Fillmore's financial success has any relevance to this thread is the fact that a good deal of it was made literally by exploiting ugly caricatures of Black people. Profit from racist exploitation. Remind you of anything? Slavery maybe?

...

A good deal? 15 out of over 300 works?

And I'm sure the Black composers of the stuff posted by RobCat were racist as well?

[brassmedic]

There's more to Fillmore than the Trombone Family of smears. I should have the choice to play them, or not.

I searched this whole thread for the part that says, "Hey guys, let's not allow Schlitz to play anything by Fillmore." Funny, I couldn't find it.

[BGuttman]

There's more to Fillmore than the Trombone Family of smears. I should have the choice to play them, or not.

I searched this whole thread for the part that says, "Hey guys, let's not allow Schlitz to play anything by Fillmore." Funny, I couldn't find it.

No, but I did read the following:

1. Because the subtitles of Lassus Trombone are racist we should stop playing anything by Henry Fillmore. Fillmore wrote over 300 pieces and only 15 are in the "trombone family".
2. Because the original advertising for Lassus Trombone appears to be racist we should all stop playing it. But we should ignore any other music that might be racist, anti-semitic, anti Chinese, etc. because we are considering the Fillmore Trombone Rags to be the only music worthy of consideration.

[tbonepar]

Tolstoy. Dostoevsky. Dickens. Mark Twain. Wagner, Strauss, Beethoven, Michelangelo, DaVinci, Picasso. We can't just erase stuff because it was somehow connected to a bad idea. Erasing the past will not help us move on. What if we threw away all of the music that came from the Catholic church? Bach? Mozart?

Wow, you're really greasing the slope here. Also, if you're going to weigh in, you might want to crack a book at some point- Bach was VERY MUCH a Lutheran, not Catholic.

You might want to reconsider the advice you gave hyperbolica. He didn't connect Bach to the Catholic Church. He gave Bach and Mozart their very own one-word sentences. (Luther, BTW, got into some pretty heavy anti-semitic stuff late in his life. I don't know what Bach's views were).

I view conversation about the relative merits of the works of the "great composers" and "great art" versus music such as Fillmore's Trombone Family and rationalizing its excommunication by substituting other similar works to program or writing something "better" as more like shoveling smoke than descending a slippery slope.

It's not "great art" - but it doesn't have to be. The music has been programmed for a variety of reasons, not the least of which there are times, places and ensembles and audiences where it works. That's really all that needs to be said. At that point, the threshold merit of the work has been established. If someone wants to program it, it should be programmed. UNLESS, .... Cue the discussion about the in-your-face racist gloss that attaches to these works.

[brassmedic]

I searched this whole thread for the part that says, "Hey guys, let's not allow Schlitz to play anything by Fillmore." Funny, I couldn't find it.

No, but I did read the following:

1. Because the subtitles of Lassus Trombone are racist we should stop playing anything by Henry Fillmore. Fillmore wrote over 300 pieces and only 15 are in the "trombone family".
2. Because the original advertising for Lassus Trombone appears to be racist we should all stop playing it. But we should ignore any other music that might be racist, anti-semitic, anti Chinese, etc. because we are considering the Fillmore Trombone Rags to be the only music worthy of consideration.

No you didn't.

http://www.trombonechat.com/search.php? ... sf=msgonly

[LeTromboniste]

Seriously who is this, calling out Gabe Langfur and Doug Yeo and referring to them as bottom tier players and educators?! They should by all means show us their credentials. All I see on their profile is that they have deleted the contents of almost all of the posts they've ever made on TromboneChat... typical troll behaviour.



Bruce, I don't recall anyone here saying we should ditch the entirety of Fillmore's output. I think if you read the thread again you'll see that the consensus on this side of the debate had been that while we should definitely have a discussion about the complex issue of problematic actions or ideas from composers, Lassus Trombone and the Trombone Family are not part of that complicated (and probably more important) conversation, and are a much more clear-cut case, because the problem in this case is not with the composer but with the music itself. Fillmore as a person and the rest of his output notwithstanding, and him being a racist or not, the point is the piece itself is racist both in contents and conception. Now you can disagree with that (although I'm really having a hard time seeing how one can in good faith say this music is not racist) and you can disagree with what we think we should do. But reframing the debate to censorship at large and to the much more complex issue of how to deal with the dark side of composers of the past is just not helpful to the question at hand, and it comes off as a way to refuse to even consider the question and question our biases and privilege. Not everything has to be all or nothing and not all slopes have to be slippery.

[brtnats]

Max: The part you’re missing is that there is a totally legitimate argument to be had for reclaiming music with racist roots. It’s not my argument; it’s been elaborated on in scholarly and popular writing about minstrelsy for decades. Here is the briefest of examples if you care to read it:

https://www.theavidlistener.com/2017/07 ... relsy.html

We cannot, in America, separate our popular music from a blackface, whiteface, racist past. It’s just impossible. And I think the resistance you’re hearing from people is coming from people tied to the idea that through years of performance and pedagogy and intentional common use, we have reclaimed this piece from its racist roots. It’s clearly how we as a community rationalize Wagner. It’s how we rationalize Gershwin. It’s how we rationalize ragtime and American folk songs. The insistence that no amount of reclamation is going to save something as dumb as Lassus Trombone clearly implies that no amount of reclamation is going to save things far worse. Thus, the demand that we talk about far worse examples.

I’m not going to assume Doug’s motives for writing this piece now. I know that Trevor Herbert wrote about it 2007 and we didn’t react like this. Bruce Gunia wrote about it in 2013 and we didn’t react like this. Sam Burtis wrote about it in the early 2000s and we didn’t react like this. And Doug is taking a victory lap while cautiously avoiding the broader discussion of what to do about racist music that makes a lot of money. I don’t think anybody is faulting Doug for shining a light. I think quite a few people are faulting him for saying we need to bury something. And if you don’t believe music can be reclaimed, then you’re going to disagree. That doesn’t make you inherently “right,” which is clearly how some proponents of that position feel.

[bwilliams]

I think a lot of the talk here is from people in deep holes that aren't looking around and seeing the forest for the trees. This is good information, for the musicians to be informed about the set of pieces, yes, but even more so for the organizations programming them.

If I was running a community band, I wouldn't want to program the piece. Imagine the higher profile groups that have been programming this music without knowing the meaning behind it. All it takes is one informed audience member, and then you have a big problem. And if your group is something like a service band or some other group like that, you can't say "we didn't know" even if it's true.

There is no real argument for it, once you know. What do you do when your customer comes up after the concert asking why you programmed horrible racist music? "Oh, we didn't know"? At this point, now, that would be a lie.

Oooops!!!

[WilliamLang]

lassus trombone and that suite of music needs to go away for a long time before rehabilitation can be addressed. other pieces can and should be addressed on their own, but lassus should for lack of a better word be cancelled.

also doug yeo is not taking any sort of victory lap or whatever. he wrote a good article. it does make me chuckle to imagine that "doug yeo is antifa" now though. i don't really have a point here, just wanted to write that phrase out loud for my own amusement.

[LeTromboniste]

Brtnats: I don't think merely having performed the piece for decades despite (and at first, because of) its racism until we forgot that it's racist, but without actually making any effort to reframe it in any meaningful way, qualifies as "reclaiming" (and I don't think the publisher stripping the obviously offensive subtitles counts as a meaningful reframing, it was certainly justified only by the will to keep selling it and making money). I also don't personally think it's up to me as a white person to "reclaim" and rehabilitate culturally appropriated material or racist music written by other white people to ridicule black people.

At the very least, I think the nature of the piece ought to be acknowledged when performing it, which raises the issue that not many people will be willing to program it if its nature is acknowledged, and not a lot of audiences would enjoy it the way they had before if they're told what its meaning is. If its musical content lent itself to be reframed in a thought-provoking way, it might very well be a different conversation, but it's unfortunately not really the case. It's pretty hard to program it as anything else than a "funny", silly showpiece.


I don't agree, by the way, that merely having performed Wagner all this time is enough in itself to rationalize him, or that "it's clearly how we as a community" do it.

[BGuttman]

Don't want to perform these pieces? Have at it. But to trash them with 21st Century "Woke" attitude is unfair to the time they were written.

Sorry, Bruce. That doesn't cut it. Lots of things that were commonplace in the past are considered abhorrent now. You can't just excuse them by saying it was a different time.

Gabe, you can't erase history. Whatever you try to do about it, it will remain Just like dumb posts on the Internet.

The best thing we can do is to acknowledge our history and accept responsibility for the more unseemly parts. Just like the Germans looking at Nazi era monuments. Some are removed, and others get some kind of explanatory plaque.

I personally don't look at a person's skin color; I will more likely look at his actions, and perhaps dress (I am not comfortable with guys wearing gang paraphernalia; including Harley vests).

If Lassus is really such an awful work, it will die a natural death into obscurity, much like a lot of the other pieces RobCat showed in his post (the only one I had even heard of was the Joplin rag).

[mrpillow]

On the contrary, this very debate seems to point to the conclusion that history can indeed be erased, particularly when at the expense of an outgroup as dictated by the centered majority.

The past cannot be changed, but our awareness, understanding, and response to past events and norms are constantly evolving. Clearly the awareness of the origins and historical context of Lassus Trombone were largely erased by exclusion from the common knowledge of the trombone community.

When you say you don't see color you are not being less racist, you are ignoring racism; and being anti-racist requires active thought, interpretation, and action.

People will go to great lengths—whether intentional or subconscious—to maintain the status quo of their centered ideology, but contrary to centered belief there is no connection between being centered and being just.