Coronavirus

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robcat2075
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by robcat2075 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:19 pm

The heavy hand of big government steps in... to make people do what they should have done all along.

It seems part of the problem was that they were making two vaccines at once. What could go wrong?

NYT:The Biden administration put Johnson & Johnson in charge of a Baltimore plant that ruined millions of doses of its vaccine.
The Biden administration on Saturday put Johnson & Johnson in charge of a Baltimore contract plant that ruined 15 million doses of its Covid-19 vaccine, and moved to stop the facility from making another vaccine, developed by AstraZeneca, senior federal health officials said.

The extraordinary move by the U.S. Health and Human Services will leave the Emergent BioSolutions facility solely devoted to making the Johnson & Johnson single-dose vaccine and is meant to avoid future mix-ups, according to two senior federal health officials. Johnson & Johnson confirmed the changes, saying it was “assuming full responsibility” for the vaccine made by Emergent.

The change came in response to the recent disclosure that Emergent, a manufacturing partner to both AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson, accidentally mixed up the ingredients from the two different vaccines, which forced regulators to delay authorization of the plant’s production lines.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by JohnL » Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:38 am

The extraordinary move by the U.S. Health and Human Services...
Extraordinary, but not entirely unprecedented. This sort of thing happened during WWII with defense contractors (Brewster Aeronautical Corporation being a prime example), though often it was the military that took over, rather than another company.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by baileyman » Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:55 am

https://imgur.com/a/WvNIyVR
Image

Forewarned is forearmed. This is Massachusetts. We do not collect, or at least do not publicly disclose, data on variants, nor the expectations of epidemiologists (which we have in abundance), nor do we trace and isolate. Rather, we talk incessantly about "opening up", bars, restaurants, sports venues, etc. The mood is upbeat, hopeful that the end is in sight. Meanwhile, this is the picture of what is happening.

The blue is a freehand exponential decay line for the "old" variant, and the red is a freehand exponential growth line for the "new" variants. The two lines should sum to be similar to the observed curve. The bottoming you see is at a ten-times higher level than the previous bottom which led to the peak just passed. It sure seems state officials should be concerned. Their public speech should be something like, "The state is on fire! Everybody stay home!" but we get no urgency whatsoever.

It appears that this red surge is a northeastern thing and is ramping up most everywhere. Perhaps it will wash its way west and south. Watch out. If you feel like advocating for anything, advocate for "Covid Zero".
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by BGuttman » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:50 am

Interesting thing about your observation. While cases are going up, the death toll hasn't kept pace. It's possible that this variant is more contagious and less deadly. I see the same curves from New Hampshire and Massachusetts (I don't have an easy source for the rest of New England). CDC is showing large outbreaks even in Vermont, which has been very low in the past.

Vaccinations are continuing apace here, and I hope it will mitigate this new outbreak.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by baileyman » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:40 am

Deaths could relate to the younger age of newly infecteds and the increasing skill the docs now bring to hospitalizations, and having some free capacity, now, too.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by ArbanRubank » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:49 am

I think we are seeing mixed results. More and more people are getting vacc'd, so there are more of us protected from contagion and the harsher side of getting sick if we do get it. And yet more and more people are coming out of their lock-downs, potentially spreading the virus. The variants seem to be going after the younger population more, who have previously thought they had some type of youth immunity. In short, it ain't over yet by a long shot.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by spencercarran » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:13 am

BGuttman wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:50 am
Interesting thing about your observation. While cases are going up, the death toll hasn't kept pace.
This was the folk theory during the late fall/early winter surge last year. It was nonsense then and is nonsense again now. Deaths lag cases, for reasons that should be obvious.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Bach5G » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:19 am

Lots of people travelling over the the Easter weekend. We’ve seen the scenario before. It will be interesting to see if it leads to a surge in infections.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by robcat2075 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:51 am

The death count isn't the only metric that matters.

The people who get sick enough to show up in the "cases" count are candidates for long-lasting, maybe permanent health problems, even after they "recover".
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by BGuttman » Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:48 pm

robcat2075 wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:51 am
The death count isn't the only metric that matters.

The people who get sick enough to show up in the "cases" count are candidates for long-lasting, maybe permanent health problems, even after they "recover".
Agreed. Surprisingly, the vaccines seem to help mitigate these long term effects.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Bach5G » Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:59 pm

There seems to be several treatments that mitigate the symptoms pretty effectively but no one is talking about those.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by BGuttman » Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:03 pm

Well, there's Remdesivir (an expensive cocktail that has to be dosed by IV) and then Ivermectin (which everybody seems to be ignoring). We can dispense with hydroxychlorquine (which doesn't work) and bleach injections (Yikes!).
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by spencercarran » Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:06 pm

Vaccines should generally be preferred to therapeutics. Ounce of prevention, pound of cure, etc
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by BGuttman » Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:17 pm

spencercarran wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:06 pm
Vaccines should generally be preferred to therapeutics. Ounce of prevention, pound of cure, etc
Absolutely, but it would help if we had something to give the poor soul who contracted the disease before he could be vaccinated.

I'm kinda worried about Ivermectin. There are some studies that show promise both as a treatment and a prophylaxis. Given the studies so far it would behoove the Health community to investigate further. Given that the stuff has been around for a long time (no issues with safety) and is available as a generic it could be a good choice; especially for the 3rd World where cost is a factor.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by robcat2075 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:50 pm

Bach5G wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:59 pm
There seems to be several treatments that mitigate the symptoms pretty effectively but no one is talking about those.
I'm sure treatments are widely talked-about among the professionals who have to treat COVID-sick people, but in a public health policy sense they probably don't want to talk something up that gives the false sense of "don't worry, if you get sick we have the cure on the shelf here."
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Bach5G » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:06 pm

I think it was Fauci who was saying there were medications that weren’t being used and were at risk of expiring. But I might be wrong.

I did find this article on therapies:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... ments.html
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by robcat2075 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:44 am

J&J vaccine "paused"

NYT:
The U.S. calls for a pause on the Johnson & Johnson vaccine after rare clotting cases.

Federal health agencies on Tuesday called for an immediate pause in use of Johnson & Johnson’s single-dose coronavirus vaccine after six recipients in the United States developed a rare disorder involving blood clots within about two weeks of vaccination.

All six recipients were women between the ages of 18 and 48. One woman died and a second woman in Nebraska has been hospitalized in critical condition.

Nearly seven million people in the United States have received Johnson & Johnson shots so far,
So that's a less than 1-in-a-million chance of the clotting side effect.

What is the occurrence of clotting in the general population? This page suggest that the natural occurrence of harmful blood clots is "1 to 2 per 1,000" each year with 100,000 deaths...
Venous Thromboembolism (Blood Clots)

So that prompts two questions
  • When blood clots are so common how will they ascertain whether these J&J-associated cases are really due to the vaccine? Maybe they would have happened anyway?
  • When blood clots are so common, why have there been no anecdotal reports of blood clots "after" the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. 200 million doses of those have been given so far.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by BGuttman » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:42 am

This is exactly the same as the AstraZenica situation. The prevalence of the clots is VERY low.

My wife noted that bad reactions to COVID vaccines were associated with high estrogen levels. Wonder if this is part of the issue? As an older male I don't have much testosterone, nor much estrogen. I had no reaction to the first dose and I'm not 24 hours into the second so I'm still waiting.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by PaulT » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:55 pm

robcat2075 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:44 am


So that prompts two questions
  • When blood clots are so common how will they ascertain whether these J&J-associated cases are really due to the vaccine? Maybe they would have happened anyway?
  • When blood clots are so common, why have there been no anecdotal reports of blood clots "after" the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. 200 million doses of those have been given so far.
Second question first. The J&J and AZ vaccines are both "adenoviral vector" vaccines. I'm not going to try explain that. Suffice to say, the J&J vaccine and the AZ vaccine share a similar mode of action; a similar means of introducing the necessary instructions to the target cell. The Pfizer and Moderna are mRNA vaccines, a very different (and much newer) vaccine type with a very different mode of action than the J&J and AZ vaccines.

The similarity of the J&J and AZ vaccines and the similarities of the clotting symptoms and the similar age and sex of the people experiencing these symptoms after receiving the JJ and AZ vaccines is causing significant concern. There are some worrisome connections.

As for the first question, that is a work in progress. That these clots have been occurring among J&J and AZ vaccinated women under the age of 50 in a greater frequency than would be expected statistically raised the red flag. Next comes the sleuthing, and there are plausible leads to pursue.

I believe there is one thing we can bank on, this issue is not one that anyone in the medical community has any desire to exaggerate. The opposite. Both vaccines are desperately needed, especially so as the vaccination effort moves beyond the more affluent countries. That medical authorities clearly aware of the need would lend credence to the clotting issues by calling for a pause and further study indicates (to me) that there is serious concern.
Last edited by PaulT on Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by BGuttman » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:06 pm

Apparently all of the clotting cases have occurred in women under 50 years old (i.e. still menstrual). Seems that men are safe, as are older (post menopausal) women. Also, the chances of getting the clots are several orders of magnitude lower than the chances of getting COVID if un-vaccinated.

The J&J and AZ vaccines have the advantage of not needing as much refrigeration (a normal freezer will serve) and could be an advantage in 3rd World countries where facilities are limited.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by PaulT » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:12 pm

And bear in mind, when "the odds" of this and that are being considered, make sure the table is level. The risk of clots has to be calculated within the target group, young women, not the general population. And the counter balancing risk of Covid has to be similarly calculated as it exists within the same target group, otherwise healthy young women, not the general population.

I'm not a young woman, but if I were, I personally would consider it prudent to bypass the J&J vaccine and go for the Pfizer or Moderna. (as, as a healthy young woman, I would consider the consequences of Covid to be near 0 when compared to the consequences of a blood clot in the brain). And if by chance I had just received the J&J vaccine, I would start taking a daily low dose aspirin for the next month or so... just because...

The bugger is, these two vaccines, the JJ and AZ are needed for the push to vaccinate the poorer countries of the world in a timely, or as close to timely as we are likely to achieve, manner. And now those waters are being muddied and suspicions, even if established to be unwarranted in the greater picture, will linger and continue to cloud.

It's a bad deal.
Last edited by PaulT on Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by robcat2075 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:27 am

PaulT wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:55 pm
robcat2075 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:44 am


So that prompts two questions
  • When blood clots are so common how will they ascertain whether these J&J-associated cases are really due to the vaccine? Maybe they would have happened anyway?
  • When blood clots are so common, why have there been no anecdotal reports of blood clots "after" the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. 200 million doses of those have been given so far.
Second question first. The J&J and AZ vaccines are both "adenoviral vector" vaccines...
I guess you missed the irony quotes around "after".
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by PaulT » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:03 am

Yep. I missed them.

You have any other questions you don't need answered? ;)
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by baileyman » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:14 am

robcat2075 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:44 am
J&J vaccine "paused"
...
So that's a less than 1-in-a-million chance of the clotting side effect.

What is the occurrence of clotting in the general population? This page suggest that the natural occurrence of harmful blood clots is "1 to 2 per 1,000" each year with 100,000 deaths...
Venous Thromboembolism (Blood Clots)
...

Nice work. On the practical side, suppose you're a doc, and the information is correct, you'll see on average a thousand blood clots for every one of the clots supposedly related to J&J.

You know, centuries ago midwifes knew how to cow-pox inoculate against small pox. One wonders what would have happened if someone had been there to bean count the complications that occurred at greater than 1 per million rate.

In a utilitarian sense, the weighted average probabilities in these situations are massively positive. So positive that one must question where such official disregard of the clear cost-benefit comes from. So far this looks like a hysteria, but we shall see.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by robcat2075 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:34 pm

Yup.

At 1 per 1000 people per year, that suggests about 3800 blood clots per week would occur anyway among a population of 200 million people (the number of people who have been Pfizer'd and Moderna'd)

So there have to be some people who got the non-JnJ vaccines, then within a few days also got a blood clot. And yet we are not hearing anyone asking if there is a cause-and-effect relationship with those vaccines, just the JnJ.

:idk:

PaulT wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:03 am
You have any other questions you don't need answered? ;)
  • Is French dressing really just ketchup and mayonnaise?
  • Has six always been greater than five?
  • Why don't birds need sunglasses?
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by robcat2075 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:55 pm

Upside down world: they're thinking the blood clots are caused by a reaction to... a blood thinner.

Wapo: The race to untangle the secrets of rare, severe blood clots after Johnson & Johnson vaccination
When an otherwise healthy 48-year-old Nebraska woman arrived at an emergency room after three days of abdominal pain and malaise, doctors discovered a life-threatening puzzle. Her platelets, the colorless blood cells that clump to form clots, had plummeted. But a CT scan of her abdomen and pelvis revealed extensive blood clots.

Her medical team raced to untangle the seemingly paradoxical combination of symptoms. Even as they treated the patient with a common blood thinner, more clots appeared — in her brain and in the blood vessels around her liver and spleen.

As doctors scoured the patient’s medical history for clues, a seemingly innocent fact emerged: She had received the Johnson & Johnson coronavirus vaccine two weeks before starting to feel ill
.
European scientists’ detective work on similar cases in March, paired with decades of painstaking research into an obscure immune reaction to the anticoagulant drug heparin, have given them a probable — but not certain — mechanism, just weeks after the cases began to be detected.

Scientific questions remain about what component of the vaccines might be triggering the reaction, and who is at risk. But the syndrome is so similar to the rare heparin-related reactions that scientists have given the vaccine-triggered reaction a similar name, established a probable link and identified a widely available diagnostic test. It’s clear that heparin shouldn’t be given because it may worsen the clots, but other treatments exist on the shelves of virtually any hospital, although they cannot undo the damage caused by severe clots.

But just about everyone who has an operation gets Heparin and yet these reactions are nearly unknown.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by BGuttman » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:06 pm

The problem appears to be that Heparin, commonly used as a blood thinner, makes these particular clots worse. I wonder if my Coumadin (taken for cardiac arrhythmia) would have the same problem.

Note that the clot problem appears to be mostly in women aged 18 to 48 (i.e. menstrual). I haven't seen any other people with the problem.

This is probably something that would have surfaced in a normal (long) vaccine trial. But since we are fighting a pandemic, getting some kind of preventative was of the essence. We also haven't been able to see how long the immunity lasts. It's just been too new.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by spencercarran » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:00 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:06 pm
This is probably something that would have surfaced in a normal (long) vaccine trial.
Probably not, actually. Given the (apparently) low rate of these complications, they would not have been likely to appear in any realistically sized trial.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by baileyman » Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:45 am

Meanwhile, updating a previous post, this page shows Massachusetts daily cases:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-ca ... sachusetts

I had expected the recent bottoming to lead to a dramatic surge of UK variant that could be a really big risk. Instead, the case counts quickly topped and are coming down.

I cannot think of any proximate cause for this other than the rather successful vax program the State is running. This is a very encouraging development. However, vax alone will not eliminate the virus. It will only keep it at a low level. Some countries are going for elimination, but it takes a lot of political will to actually do it.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by BGuttman » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:00 am

Interestingly, out here in Cow Country we are earlier in the downward edge of a surge. We actually exceeded Massachusetts in cases per 100K population (and are still higher as I write).

The NPR program On Point is discussing vaccine hesitancy right now (you will be able to hear it complete tonight at 7 PM EDT on WBUR.org or look on the NPR Web Site to see where it airs in your area. Seems that rural White males and Evangelicals are most hesitant, especially in the Deep South (Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, etc.).
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Bach5G » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:35 pm

I just got my Pfizer #1 and am waiting 15 minutes before being allowed to leave.

Despite the long line - just like Disneyland - everybody seems pretty cheerful.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Posaunus » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:56 pm

Bach5G wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:35 pm
I just got my Pfizer #1 and am waiting 15 minutes before being allowed to leave.

Despite the long line - just like Disneyland - everybody seems pretty cheerful.
None of my friends in the medical biz have yet seen an allergic reaction to the vaccines. Must be pretty rare.

Perhaps in 4 weeks (2 weeks after your second injection) we'll let you socialize with those of us previously vaccinated! :idk: [We'll form an international trombone ensemble. If you can sneak across the border and return home.]

Stay cheerful. And hopeful.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Bach5G » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:50 pm

In order to stretch our supplies of the vaccine, Canadians will wait 4 months between shots. Apparently supported by the science.

Speaking of the border re-opening, we’re facing some of the toughest travel restrictions yet. Technically, I am not allowed to cross the river unless on essential business. The other side of the river is within a different health authority.

I have hopes that the US/Canada border will re-open by the summer.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by BGuttman » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:08 pm

I had Pfizer with a 4 week separation. It was because I was ill when I was due for the second shot at 3 weeks and I got the next available appointment -- a week later. I was a bit tired at first, but my heart condition makes that a normal occurrence, so I didn't really feel anything. I'm now 10 days past the 2nd shot.

My wife is planning some travel. Apparently Tanglewood will have a reduced season and she will take a series. Also, she will be visiting her cousin in Connecticut (they've both been vaxxed). I'm staying home to take care of the dog.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by baileyman » Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:17 am

BGuttman wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:00 am
...
The NPR program On Point is discussing vaccine hesitancy right now (you will be able to hear it complete tonight at 7 PM EDT on WBUR.org or look on the NPR Web Site to see where it airs in your area. Seems that rural White males and Evangelicals are most hesitant, especially in the Deep South (Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, etc.).
Vax hesitancy is a curious thing. I speculate part of the reason for it is that it seems our public speech about vax is backwards. For instance, re the J&J Fauci said something like, look at the data and make your decision, as all the vaccines are extraordinarily safe. So he is addressing an individualistic what's-in-it-for-me motivation. And along these lines we see "vaccine shopping" where people try to get whatever one is judged with the highest efficacy, even a gal in France who declined a J&J and traveled 90 minutes to another region to get a Pfizer.

This is nuts.

The whole point of the vax is to get it into everybody to achieve a vaccine herd immunity. So the language I would like to see from the leaders in this project would be like: "Get vaccined to protect the ones you love. This is how you love your neighbor as yourself. This is what we do for each other."

But I hear nothing like that. Thus hesitancy without that context is almost rational.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by timothy42b » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:00 am

baileyman wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:17 am


The whole point of the vax is to get it into everybody to achieve a vaccine herd immunity. So the language I would like to see from the leaders in this project would be like: "Get vaccined to protect the ones you love. This is how you love your neighbor as yourself. This is what we do for each other."

Maybe, maybe not. I just read the latest book by Adam Grant called Think Again, with some ideas about how to go about changing our minds or other minds, being able to receive new ideas.

One thing I have had trouble accepting is the idea that when you present people with ironclad indisputable data that proves they're wrong, they don't change their opinions. Instead, they become even more convinced.

It turns out there is something called a "vaccine whisperer," a few people who've had great success in getting vaccine hesitant people to get themselves and their children vaccinated. The technique they use is called motivational interviewing. That's a new term to me and I don't understand it well enough to explain it but I'm trying to learn more about it.

For me this is work related as well. I have bosses who are often not open to innovation due to the local culture, and as an engineer supplying them with data has been a lesson in futility. Funny thing, with about 10 months left in a 32 year career as an engineer, I might be actually learning how to do my job. <smiley>
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by robcat2075 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:50 am

Next pandemic, we need to make sure there are lots of people falling down in the street with blood pouring from every orifice of their body and have FOX News saying that if you get the virus your Viagra won't work anymore.

That is about what it will take to get people rushing to get vaccinated.
Last edited by robcat2075 on Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by ArbanRubank » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:46 am

robcat2075 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:50 am
Next pandemic, we need to make sure there are lots of people falling down in the street with pouring blood from every orifice of their body and have FOX News saying that if you get the virus your Viagra won't work anymore.

That is about what it will take to get people rushing to get vaccinated.
Do you know what happens when a Fox News reporter takes Viagra? They just get taller...

It turns out that when you give Viagra to a CNN reporter - nothing at all happens.

How about giving it to a BBC reporter? Hmmmmmm. That's a hard one.

Anyway, even though wife and I have been vac'd twice, we are still in a self-imposed lock-down, until more data is analyzed. But I'll go out to our fav India restaurant to make a quick pick-up for some curry-in-a-hurry to have at lunch time.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by BGuttman » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:48 am

I saw a funny way to try to convince reluctant men (I think it was on Jimmy Kimmel). The presenter claimed that his male member grew to 3 feet long after the vaccine. The mentality of the male hesitants would probably accept this as a good reason.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by glenp » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:03 am

BGuttman wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:48 am
I saw a funny way to try to convince reluctant men (I think it was on Jimmy Kimmel). The presenter claimed that his male member grew to 3 feet long after the vaccine. The mentality of the male hesitants would probably accept this as a good reason.
While that’s humorous, it doesn’t jive with my experiences. The most common response that I’ve heard about not getting the vaccine goes like this:

1. It is my right to not get the vaccine; just as it is your right to get it.
2. If the vaccine works, why are you worried about all the people who don’t get it?
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by BGuttman » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:11 am

glenp wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:03 am
BGuttman wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:48 am
I saw a funny way to try to convince reluctant men (I think it was on Jimmy Kimmel). The presenter claimed that his male member grew to 3 feet long after the vaccine. The mentality of the male hesitants would probably accept this as a good reason.
While that’s humorous, it doesn’t jive with my experiences. The most common response that I’ve heard about not getting the vaccine goes like this:

1. It is my right to not get the vaccine; just as it is your right to get it.
2. If the vaccine works, why are you worried about all the people who don’t get it?
My retort to these people is:

"If you don't get vaccinated and get COVID you might die. That's your problem. Right no there is no cure."
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by glenp » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:33 am

BGuttman wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:11 am
My retort to these people is:

"If you don't get vaccinated and get COVID you might die. That's your problem. Right no there is no cure."
Unfortunately that argument hasn't been effective at changing their minds. I believe that their level of risk acceptance/avoidance is different from ours/yours. In my experience, appealing to personal risk avoidance doesn't help. baileyman touched on this too.
baileyman wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:17 am
The whole point of the vax is to get it into everybody to achieve a vaccine herd immunity. So the language I would like to see from the leaders in this project would be like: "Get vaccined to protect the ones you love. This is how you love your neighbor as yourself. This is what we do for each other."

But I hear nothing like that. Thus hesitancy without that context is almost rational.
This is the sort of messaging that PR and marketing firms tend to be really good at. Scientists and doctors are notoriously not good at convincing the untrained to understand the message they're trying to get across. I'm thinking back to the space shuttle Challenger issue.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by ArbanRubank » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:10 am

Don't judge me for stating this, but I believe now that young people can get seriously ill or die will be a boost to the overall vaccination push. I wish it didn't have to be so. Human nature sucks sometimes.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by MagnumH » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:32 am

Some of this reminds me of the story of Daryl Davis - a black man who singlehandedly convinced more than 200 KKK members to renounce the klan and hang up their robes. The key was that he did it by talking to them, one to one and in person, and it took time, patience and perseverance.

Simply spouting edicts, no matter how ethical, correct and morally just, rarely gets the job done. People just dig in to their own bias. But connecting on a personal level can help. I believe some of the most successful vaccine programs have involved people talking to their doctors and other trusted figures about their own concerns. And it’s always helpful to be respectful in disagreements and avoid ridicule, even if you find anti-vax position abhorrent (as I generally do).

On a private note - just got my 2nd dose this morning in NY! Wedding gig season kicks off on May 8th (with a couple smaller and controlled gigs before that) so I’m thrilled to be getting back to work soon! Already I only have two free weekends until the end of September, and I’m sure they’ll book up in no time too.

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by glenp » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:49 am

MagnumH wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:32 am
Some of this reminds me of the story of Daryl Davis - a black man who singlehandedly convinced more than 200 KKK members to renounce the klan and hang up their robes.
[snip]
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes
Good read. This story reinforces the idea that relationships change lives far more than rhetoric does.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by robcat2075 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:38 pm

But he's spent 30 year doing that.

Do we have 30 years for this vaccine thing? :shuffle:
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Bach5G » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:47 pm

Probably obvious, but I think the media has contributed to an unwarranted level of anxiety over the vaccinations. And turning a health issue into a political issue is just plain crazy.

I had an unexplained adverse allergic reaction to a Hep C shot a few years ago. I’ve avoided getting the flu shot ever since. I had real concerns about getting this shot.

So far, nothing to see here.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by Bach5G » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:49 pm

glenp wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:49 am
MagnumH wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:32 am
Some of this reminds me of the story of Daryl Davis - a black man who singlehandedly convinced more than 200 KKK members to renounce the klan and hang up their robes.
[snip]
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes
Good read. This story reinforces the idea that relationships change lives far more than rhetoric does.
Once I heard an interview with an academic who maintained ‘racial sensitivity training” did not only not work, it tended to entrench existing attitudes. What did work? Working together.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by glenp » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:51 pm

robcat2075 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:38 pm
But he's spent 30 year doing that.

Do we have 30 years for this vaccine thing? :shuffle:
Maybe we will if we keep with the current strategy. :shock:

That's tongue in cheek of course. But I do think that what's being done now will result in taking too long and that it would be more effective with better messaging and more respect/neighborly love. And that's not directed at anyone here - but toward our country as a whole.
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Re: Coronavirus

Post by glenp » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:58 pm

glenp wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:51 pm
Maybe we will if we keep with the current strategy. :shock:
Responding to myself here to be more balanced....

I'm actually pleasantly surprised at the rate we've seen folks getting vaccinated. There's been a huge effort and I do think it's paying off with the population who is not set against it. So thanks to everyone who is involved in the vaccination efforts!
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