Literature on Verdi's Cimbasso

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Tremozl
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Literature on Verdi's Cimbasso

Post by Tremozl »

I know this is more about a valved contrabass trombone than more traditional trombones but I'm wondering if anyone can shed any light on this. Literature I've found seems to imply the valved contrabass trombone of Verdi's time was usually a CC or BBb horn with the bell in upright configuration - and sometime shortly after, with valve sections canted at an angle rather than straight forward (like valve trombones) or straight down like modern Cimbassi. Photos exist of BBb Cimbassi in use in the late 1800s with a partially angled valve section.

Its hard to know what would have been used as Verdi himself just preferred "not a Tuba" - which meant the part could be performed on Ophecleide or various other unusual instruments NOT a true contrabass trombone - does anyone know what could have been close to the proper instrument at the time? Surely it wasnt our modern F Cimbasso with its large bore, small bell throat, large bell flare, 5 rotary valves, 90 degree downwards bent valve section, etc etc.
sf105
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Re: Literature on Verdi's Cimbasso

Post by sf105 »

There's a 30 page discussion on this topic on TubaNet somewhere. I believe the modern Cimbasso is a postwar invention, but it seems to be a good compromise--like the modern contra.
sungfw
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Re: Literature on Verdi's Cimbasso

Post by sungfw »

sf105 wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:21 pm There's a 26 page discussion on this topic on TubeNet somewhere. I believe the modern Cimbasso is a postwar invention, but it seems to be a good compromise--like the modern contra.
FTFY.
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LeTromboniste
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Re: Literature on Verdi's Cimbasso

Post by LeTromboniste »

Early cimbasso (EDIT : Corrected image - former image showed a serpent Forveille - which would probably have been called cimbasso in Italy as well but was probably not common there) :

Image

English bass horn, likely also used in Italy and also called cimbasso :

Image

So Verdi's cimbasso had nothing to do with a modern cimbasso. What we now call cimbasso, Verdi and the other Italian composers of the time simply called "trombone basso", because that's what it is, a valved bass trombone in F. Verdi did call for each of the three instruments - cimbasso, ophicleide and trombone basso - and they are all different instruments.

The real cimbasso is a member of the serpent family. It was made of wood, had toneholes like the original serpent, but was upright, wrapped like a bassoon. It's a type of "bass horn" which was also made and used elsewhere on the continent and in Britain (where it was made entirely of brass, and that's the instrument Mendelssohn wrote the Midsummer Night's Dream solo for). There were later instruments with wider flared brass bells and wooden corpus as well. The all-brass British variety was likely used in Italy at some point and would also have been called cimbasso (the name of which, by the way, likely comes from "c. in basso" for corno in basso or corno inglese di basso - literally bass horn or English bass horn - incidentally "bass horn" is exactly what the British called it).

So the original cimbasso is a cousin of the ophicleide and has nothing to do with the trombone family. By the second half of the 19th century, there were versions of both the bass horn/cimbasso and the ophicleide with the tone holes or keys replaced with valves, but retaining the upright form and conical but much narrower bore compared to the German Baßtuba. The lines get blurry when the bore gets closer to cylindrical and the trombone basso gets more conical and by then is almost only in the wrap shape. My hypothesis (purely conjectural) is that the valved bass trombone eventually superceded the other instruments and all parts were played on it, whether they were labeled cimbasso or trombone basso - then foreigners in the 20th century see the cimbasso parts in Verdi operas played on the valved bass, which by then is no longer in use pretty much anywhere else, and the instrument becomes associated with the name of the parts it plays.

This is a field where much research still has to be done by the way. For instance there was a very interesting article about the ophicleide/serpent/bass horn/tuba in Germany in the Historical Brass Society Journal last year, part of an ongoing series of articles on the lower brass instruments.
Last edited by LeTromboniste on Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Tremozl
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Re: Literature on Verdi's Cimbasso

Post by Tremozl »

Ah very cool, thanks very much for sharing. This ongoing research is whats so fascinating about it! I didnt know a true Cimbasso was actually more of an Ophicleide than a Trombone.

A part of me would love to be involved in the research but thats usually for University professors / people with access to specialized archives. Seems a bit beyond my reach.

Thanks for sharing :D
bbocaner
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Re: Literature on Verdi's Cimbasso

Post by bbocaner »

Cimbasso often meant "whatever your guy has".

Sometimes it was more of a contrabass trombone or valved contrabass trombone. Sometimes it was an ophicleide or some sort of upright serpent. It takes some score study to figure out which was intended for a particular work. To complicate matters, there was a type of upright serpent that was actually called a cimbasso, although I believe the one that letromboniste posted a picture of is actually a serpent forveille.

It's correct to say that what we call a cimbasso these days is a VERY modern invention, although not completely unrelated to certain 19th century bent and straight valve contrabass trombones, meant to create an instrument that modern tuba players are comfortable on and that can cover these parts. It's actually not a terrible choice for these bass horn parts assuming the player is very disciplined to keep a very round sound with it, and can also do a decent job with the more tromboney literature.

The fantastic tuba player roland szentpali has some videos on youtube of him playing an authentic cimbasso, although he seems to always use a modern mouthpiece which doesn't give you the entire effect.

Posaunus
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Re: Literature on Verdi's Cimbasso

Post by Posaunus »

bbocaner wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:06 am Cimbasso often meant "whatever your guy has".

The fantastic tuba player roland szentpali has some videos on youtube of him playing an authentic cimbasso, although he seems to always use a modern mouthpiece which doesn't give you the entire effect.

Fascinating. It takes some courage to play such an instrument in public! It's remarkable that Szentpali could eventually play the DeFesch sonata so musically, given this cimbasso's inherent intonation problems. He's a remarkable performer (as proved by other YouTube videos)! :good:
Tremozl
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Re: Literature on Verdi's Cimbasso

Post by Tremozl »

Cool stuff & thanks for the video demonstration :D

I can definitely hear what you mean with keeping a round attack to immitate this instrument. Playing that way I find actually fights the modern Cimbassi, which tend to have an even sharper / punchier attack than Trombones.
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