Simone Mantia Met section equipment

[Chatname]

I am curious to which instruments the Met opera section would have been using during Simone Mantia’s tenure, together with his colleagues Otto Gebhardt, Simone Belgiorno amongst others, starting with Mahler and Toscanini as music directors.
Mantia was playing at the Met 1908-1925 I believe, thereafter he was managing the orchestra for twelve years. During this period two Puccini masterpieces were premiered: Fanciulla and Il Trittico. Both include four trombones. Does anyone know which instruments they would have been likely to use? Mantia was of course a Conn artist. So maybe Conn 6Hs? Other brands popular at the time? I read somewhere that the Conn 80H was designed for the Met section in the twenties, and the Brass Ark museum has a 80H built for Mantia claiming it was for the German repertoire at the Met. So did they use smaller trombones for Italian and larger for German already back then?
Any insights or speculation appreciated!
Thank you!

[BGuttman]

Moved to History of the Trombone.

I can't offer any definitive information. Mantia was a virtuoso on valve trombone and euphonium when he was hired by the Met. In the Mantia/Randall Arban's he is shown with a Conn 44H, but that would have been much later than the period you are asking about. Given his virtuosity on valves, he may have used a valve trombone for some of the repertoire written when they were popular (Italian and French works of the mid 19th Century), but that is pure speculation.

[Chatname]

I might be mistaken but I believe I read somewhere that while playing the valve trombone with another American opera company (don’t remember which) he had to learn the slide trombone in a week.
This was prior to his employment at the Met. I would have guessed that the Met would have moved on from valves by 1908, considering that the principal trombonist Gebhardt was a German.
If anyone knows when they switched from valves to slides, that would be great to know!

[CalgaryTbone]

That story is in the old Arban's Trombone book. It happened in Italy, and he was a young teenager at the time. He was providing much of the support for his entire family, and the management decided to fire the whole trombone section so they could change over to slide trombones. He begged for some time to learn to play slide trombone, and they gave him a week. Nice people in his management! Luckily, his talent won the day.

Jim Scott

[Posaunus]

The legend is perpetuated in the Wikipedia article about Mantia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simone_Mantia

[Chatname]

Maybe it is not known and lost to history which instruments the Met played more than a hundred years ago… The broader question would be: which brands/models were generally popular among classical players at the time?
I believe Chicago symphony was playing large German trombones and Boston small French or French style trombones (?). The Met had a mix of players of German and Italian origin I think (the two greatest opera cultures, makes sense).

[LIBrassCo]

Mantia played on a gold plated 80h special at one point. I know this because my friend used to own the horn, and I brokered its sale which included documentation.

[chromebone]

Here is a picture of Mantia taken sometime in the 1930's with a 44H. I'm not sure if he played this horn at the Met, but most principal trombonists were generally playing small to medium bore instruments back then. As late as the 1960's, Gordon Pulis played a 78H and his successor, Per Brevig played a 78H with a flat wrap from 1968 up until the late 70's/early 80's when he switched to an 88H. David Langlitz was probably the first at the Met to play a large bore horn on the principal chair; he won his job in 1975 on an 88H that he used for most of his 40+ year career at the Met. I'll have to ask Phil Jameson if he remembers what horn Roger Smith, Langlitz's predecessor in that chair and Jameson's teacher at Julliard, played.

Screen Shot 2022-06-13 at 9.40.33 AM.png

[BGuttman]

The screen shot of Mantia also came from the Randall-Mantia version of Arban's. It's entirely possible Mantia played a 44H at some point, but that model was not available in the late 19teens and 1920s.

[Posaunus]

The screen shot of Mantia also came from the Randall-Mantia version of Arban's. It's entirely possible Mantia played a 44H at some point, but that model was not available in the late 19teens and 1920s.

Per C Derksen's Conn Loyalist Website (https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnLooksTrombone.html):
[In 1937, Conn said the Conn 44H (0.485" bore) was] "Used by the great trombone virtuoso of the Metropolitan Opera, Simone Mantia." (https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn44H1941image.html)

[Chatname]

Here is a picture of Mantia taken sometime in the 1930's with a 44H. I'm not sure if he played this horn at the Met, but most principal trombonists were generally playing small to medium bore instruments back then. As late as the 1960's, Gordon Pulis played a 78H and his successor, Per Brevig played a 78H with a flat wrap from 1968 up until the late 70's/early 80's when he switched to an 88H. David Langlitz was probably the first at the Met to play a large bore horn on the principal chair; he won his job in 1975 on an 88H that he used for most of his 40+ year career at the Met. I'll have to ask Phil Jameson if he remembers what horn Roger Smith, Langlitz's predecessor in that chair and Jameson's teacher at Julliard, played.

Screen Shot 2022-06-13 at 9.40.33 AM.png

That’s all very interesting! Thank you, and please let me know what you find out!
Was there a tradition to use Conns at the Met, maybe dating back to Mantia?
78H is a perfect instrument for the opera, by the way.

[chromebone]

The second trombonist during the 70’s - 90’s, Doug Edelman, played an 88H with a 42 slide. But I’m not sure if there was any tradition as far as any particular brand. Steve Norrell played a Bach and sometimes a Yamaha and Hal Janks played a Benge 290. I think Don Harwood played a Holton when he was in the Met.

[Chatname]

I'll have to ask Phil Jameson if he remembers what horn Roger Smith, Langlitz's predecessor in that chair and Jameson's teacher at Julliard, played.

Curious about this, would be interested to know about his horn. Which years was he at the Met? Is there a list of players somewhere, like an online resource ?

It does make sense for the shift from small/medium to large bore to have taken place later at operas than in symphonic orchestras. After all, the human voices on stage didn’t get bigger all of a sudden and there’s a limit to how big a string section one can fit in the pits, so volume will not always be a good thing obviously. The evolution towards larger and larger bores might have been driven by large symphony orchestras and not necessarily be considered a good development for most smaller orchestras/ensembles (with the possible exception of outdoor wind bands).

[BGuttman]

The Koussevitsky site has lists of players of major orchestras, but the Metropolitan only shows "Principals". In the Trombone/Tuba section there are large gaps and Mantia is not listed.

[chromebone]

I'll have to ask Phil Jameson if he remembers what horn Roger Smith, Langlitz's predecessor in that chair and Jameson's teacher at Julliard, played.

Curious about this, would be interested to know about his horn. Which years was he at the Met? Is there a list of players somewhere, like an online resource ?

Roger Smith was principal at the Met from 1940 until his death in 1975.

[CalgaryTbone]

The second trombonist during the 70’s - 90’s, Doug Edelman, played an 88H with a 42 slide. But I’m not sure if there was any tradition as far as any particular brand. Steve Norrell played a Bach and sometimes a Yamaha and Hal Janks played a Benge 290. I think Don Harwood played a Holton when he was in the Met.

This is what I remember too from my time in NY. I would also add that Langlitz was the second player, and was promoted into Roger Smith's chair (his teacher) after Smith's death. I believe he had been playing Principal while Smith was sick. He won that 2nd job as a 2nd or 3rd year student at Juilliard.

I took my auditions for Juilliard and Manhattan School of Music in 1975 (March?). The area around the area where the trombonists were auditioning was buzzing with the news that Smith had passed away the night before the auditions.

I knew Langlitz a bit - I subbed for him, teaching the Pre-College kids while the Met was on tour. He told me that Roger Smith was indeed a "Conn player", and wasn't a fan of the competition. Dave told me he brought a Bach he was trying out to a lesson, and Smith suggested that he bring a "real trombone" next time. There was a real divide between Conns and Bachs for some players back then.

Also, I think Harwood made the switch to a Bach while he was at the Met, and I also think that when Hal Janks won the job, he was on a Conn, but found a Benge he loved a few years later. The sections of both the Met and NY Phil. played Conns back then, with other instruments (mostly Bach's) starting to appear on Bass. Of course it all changed when the personnel started changing in the '80's.

Jim Scott

[Chatname]

The sections of both the Met and NY Phil. played Conns back then, with other instruments (mostly Bach's) starting to appear on Bass. Of course it all changed when the personnel started changing in the '80's.

That is very interesting. Thank you for sharing your personal knowledge about these NY legends!
So New York’s major institutions were generally more into Conns than Bachs until Alessi’s arrival, despite Bach originating from New York? One would have assumed there would have been a strong link between Bach and the New York institutions. Was Bach more popular on the commercial scene, and Conn more on the classical?

[BGuttman]

Bach trumpets ruled. Bach wasn't known for trombones in the beginning. Besides, Conn had a good half century of reputation before Bach. Incidentally, the trombone based makers were Holton, Olds, and King.

[CalgaryTbone]

I agree with Bruce - Bach was mostly a trumpet maker in the early years. I think they really started to make some headway into the symphonic trombone world when Lambert and Friedman were using them in Chicago and then Dodson in Philadelphia (Chicago before that). When Conn left Elkhart, Bach trombones really took off. By the time I was a student in NYC, the players in the conservatories were about 50/50 Bach/Conn. There was a bit more variety in the commercial world - Kings, Olds. Reynolds were around along with Bachs and Conns. I also think that some makers had a following in different regions. I lived in the Hartford area during high school, and Olds Opera models had a presence there, and Holtons were popular in the mid-west. Holton basses were popular in the years after Conn relocated.

Things change and companies come and go. Interesting to look back, though.

Jim Scott

[slipmo]

Here's a link to Simone Mantia's Conn 80H special made in 1940 for his use in the MET with documentation from Steve Dillon as he purchased the horn in 1988.

http://brassark.com/museum/conn80hmantia.html

Interestingly, it has the same small rotor and the same bell flare as my 1920s 80H "TIS" version in my collection. So I can only surmise that Mr. Burkle assembled this instrument for Mr Mantia with a combination of old stock parts from the 1920s and newer parts from 1940 (Conn was also making bullets at this time for WWII so not many trombones from this vintage)

In case you're wondering, this is one of the best playing trombones I own (and it is well documented that I have a trombone acquisition problem) and I actually use it quite frequently. The 80H is a bit different design and bell taper from the 78H, it is much darker and more "Germanic Trombone" sounding compared to my 78H from the same time period.

[BGuttman]

In 1940 Conn wasn't yet in wartime production. That started in early 1942.

[CalgaryTbone]

That's an interesting horn Noah! Per Brevig had a medium sized horn (Conn) with a flat wrap on the valve like that - wonder if it was another 80H? Sounds likely from what's in your post. Also, I'm pretty sure that Per's horn was red brass (at least the bell).

I remember one of his students telling me a story about that horn being stolen at one point, and another one of Per's students found it in a pawn shop. Per went to the store and bought back his horn, but told the student that he was insulted by how little they were charging for it!

Jim Scott

[Kdanielsen]

Looks like mine!

80h Spec from about the same time. I’d love to get it in playing condition some day. It sounds great!

[Chatname]

What a beautiful trombone and what an experience it must be to play on such a historical instrument! Very interesting also if Per Brevig had one!
Could it be that the Met section had 80Hs all along from the twenties along with a set up of smaller trombones, something like 6Hs or equivalents? .525 bores would have been considered very large for example in the bel canto repertoire where anything is too big, and in Mozart of course.
Were all 80Hs made with valves, or some without?
Reading up on Simone Mantia a while back I seem to remember players like Gebhardt and Belgiorno amongst others being listed as principals at the Met, but not Mantia.
If he was the principal, I wonder why he ordered a trombone with F-valve.
Few opera principals would use a valve at the time, and it still is hardly ever necessary. However playing second and third parts especially in an opera house a valve would have been and still is very useful (colleagues in front often very close so difficult to reach 6th and 7th positions) and sometimes necessary (Wagner).

[CalgaryTbone]

With all the repertoire that would have originally been for valve trombone, an F attachment is very useful. Take a look at the overture to La Forza del Destino that is posted on another thread on the chat. Also, both Otello and Falstaff have trills on low B flat for the whole section - quite exposed. It's still a clunky trill with your left thumb, but not really playable without a trigger. Also, there are a few low E flats and D's in the first parts in a couple of Bellini and Donizetti operas.

Jim Scott

[Matt K]

Perhaps it is the first recorded instance of gear acquisition syndrome

[Chatname]

With all the repertoire that would have originally been for valve trombone, an F attachment is very useful. Take a look at the overture to La Forza del Destino that is posted on another thread on the chat. Also, both Otello and Falstaff have trills on low B flat for the whole section - quite exposed. It's still a clunky trill with your left thumb, but not really playable without a trigger. Also, there are a few low E flats and D's in the first parts in a couple of Bellini and Donizetti operas.

Jim Scott

You’re absolutely right, those are good examples. Even a repertoire opera like Carmen with the small solos in the lower range is easier with F-valve. Valves or no valves, I’m still curious whether they would have used small bores for Italian and medium bores like 80H for the German repertoire, considering the players came from so diverse backgrounds and the two basic repertoire genres demanded very different volume output; I mean in German music volume is generally a favorable thing, in Italian volume is often not a good thing because one plays much more while there’s actually singing going on. Or maybe a healthy mixture of sizes and brands is most likely. I suppose we’ll never know.

[CalgaryTbone]

Conductors might have made their preferences known about equipment, or at least complained about too bright an approach. Also, maybe instrument choices were changing in other orchestras nearby, and they were influenced by that. Unless there's a written record about the business in those days that includes more specific info, it's all speculation.

[chromebone]

That's an interesting horn Noah! Per Brevig had a medium sized horn (Conn) with a flat wrap on the valve like that - wonder if it was another 80H? Sounds likely from what's in your post. Also, I'm pretty sure that Per's horn was red brass (at least the bell).

Pretty sure Per’s was a 78h special with a flat wrap from what a couple of first hand accounts of being in the room with him playing it have told me.

[CalgaryTbone]

I would defer to you on that - I only saw him play that horn from a distance, or in pictures, and I wasn't his student. He coached my trombone quartet, but at that point his horn, which was across the room while he worked with us, was an 88H.

Jim Scott