Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post Reply
ttf_boneagain
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_boneagain »

Quote from: RedHotMama on Nov 22, 2008, 02:44AM(Who in their right mind spends 38 pages talking about mouthpieces? Oooops, sorry....)

Not about anything quite as broad as mouthpieces in general, but specifically:
1) being (or as is more likely for bass trombone, NOT being) in ones "right mind" and
2) the Bach 1 1/2G and variants.

Mama, ya gotta realize that for over 90% of what we bass trombonists play, other people only notice us when
we either: a) don't play where folks are unconsciously used to hearing us, b) play something that is radically NOT on the page, or c) both.  A big bass trombone solo can be comprised of one half note shared with bassoons, tuba, and horns as in measure 212 of Meistersinger.  So when ANYONE expresses interest in something as bass-trombonely intimate as a well-known and loved mouthpiece, even if that happens to be another bass trombonist, we get carried away.

I strongly suspect we haven't even reached the half-life of this thread yet!  So many variants.... so few words to extol their virtually unlimited virtues.... kind like our own little escape from the harsh realities of a world where a Bach can write six whole suites for a dadgummed CELLO and not ONE solo for a bass trombone!

BTW: Where's the "End O' Rant" emoticon?  Will it suffice to simply write "EOR?" Image 
ttf_Chris Fidler
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:41 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Chris Fidler »

.......... You missed out the fact that you have more time on your hands than tenor players!!!

Not practicing or performing as much free's ya'll up for time wasting on the forum etc........ Image Image Image
ttf_Tobbe
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Tobbe »

Very interesting!
This topic is allowed to get off topic all the time, but writing more close to the original message, just being slightly off topic, in other topics is not allowed!  Image
Anyone knows why?  Image


ttf_RedHotMama
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_RedHotMama »

Not a clue. Image
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

If you take away my posts thats out of topic this tread would be only 10 pages. But I think its so long because it raise  a question about a trend to get bigger and bigger equipment. Thats why we some times should stop and look back. And some of us have made a "new" discovery in this tread

ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Well isn't it nice to get support from my fellow moderator/administrator.... If that's the best you can do RHM, stick to chit chat.

I never expected this topic to last more than a page or two, but here we are all this time and pages on, with mostly insightful comment that can be of great value to those looking/thinking about what mouthpiece to use in their bass trombone. It seems to me that this should be very much at the center of what this forum is about, as opposed yet another place for people to witter on about the woes of the world in general and of themselves in particular.

Any chance of getting back on topic ?????

Chris Stearn
ttf_BFW
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:49 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_BFW »

Quote from: blast on Nov 22, 2008, 06:27AMI never expected this topic to last more than a page or two
It's pinned.  That increases traffic.
ttf_Burgerbob
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Burgerbob »

To be on topic, but not of much use, I'm still loving my Mark 1. The honeymoon period hasn't ended, or something. I'm playing a duet with a rather good tenor player here called Conversation, by Charles Small. The bass part was written for Dave Taylor, so I've got my work cut out for me, but I know that with any preceding mouthpiece I would have used, this piece would have been impossible. So, still  Image for the 1.5 size.
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: BFW on Nov 22, 2008, 06:41AMIt's pinned.  That increases traffic.


It increases views but seems to have a smaller effect on posts..... looking at response, the bottom two pinned topics might be cast back to the ranks and the Houser lead topic should be pinned... that one is popular.

Chris Stearn
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: Burgerbob on Nov 22, 2008, 07:23AMTo be on topic, but not of much use, I'm still loving my Mark 1. The honeymoon period hasn't ended, or something. I'm playing a duet with a rather good tenor player here called Conversation, by Charles Small. The bass part was written for Dave Taylor, so I've got my work cut out for me, but I know that with any preceding mouthpiece I would have used, this piece would have been impossible. So, still  Image for the 1.5 size.


Yes, the Mark 1 is interesting.... my test continues.... it is without doubt the EASIEST mouthpiece to use of the smaller models... though with it's rim width it is pushing the 1 1/2G size envelope to the limits. It has a characteristic sound.... that I am still thinking about....

Chris Stearn
ttf_boneagain
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_boneagain »

This HAS been a long thread, but I don't think that's because it's pinned, or because there have been many extraneous postings.  I just looked back through an arbitrary sample.  We have a substantial variety of viewpoints and experiences.  As Chris asked, isn't this what the forum is about?

It does seem like, at some point, it would be worthwhile to distill the posts and summarize/categorize the what we have so far.  I am really quite surprised that there has been as little redundancy as there has been up to now.  Ellrod's post http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,42390.msg584440.html#msg584440 about spending years reading this thread makes a good point.

I think we are at a point where the risk of outright redundancy is rising rapidly.  I do NOT think we are anywhere near exhausting the topic.  Are there any magic forum methods for reducing the time for folks to get an idea of where the thread has been, so we can stay on topic without the repeats?
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Quote from: Tobbe on Nov 22, 2008, 04:10AMVery interesting!
This topic is allowed to get off topic all the time, but writing more close to the original message, just being slightly off topic, in other topics is not allowed!  Image
Anyone knows why?  Image


Tobbe, Its time to forget about that. Why this tread is popular is because we can learn a lot. I can only speak for my self but in all my years of playing this tread has learned me something new that I wish I had discovered long time ago. Maybe the first pages are the most learning but its a lot of info here.

One more thing I have discovered is my playing is more fun and that this size get me a feeling of being closer to the instrument. Has anyone else have this experience? Maybe my explanation is bad but I seem to have more contact with the instrument and the notes Im playing.  For me it makes it much more interesting and fun to play.

The sound is the clue here for many of us. I have a George Roberts MV and a 72h. Some will think I try to copy GR.
Yes and no.  I have his sound in my ears and Ray Premru and also my teacher from long time ago. But I have no intention to sound exact as them. Just closer. When I play a 72h its very different from GR. Because I'm myself.  And I'm happy because I'm much closer to the sound I love. I finally like my sound after 25 years of playing. So I have been learning a lot here. Sorry if I post to much here. Image


Leif
ttf_RedHotMama
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_RedHotMama »

Quote from: blast on Nov 22, 2008, 06:27AMWell isn't it nice to get support from my fellow moderator/administrator.... If that's the best you can do RHM, stick to chit chat.

I was only joking, Chris. A bit of a smile amongst an acre of heavy stuff. I'm very sorry that you found it to be such a serious thing. Image
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

I have to admit Christine, that I found your post rather odd. It came from nowhere.
Anyway, enough.... anoraks on and back to business....

Chris Stearn
ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_GetzenBassPlayer »

Quote from: RedHotMama on Nov 22, 2008, 08:23AMI was only joking, Chris. A bit of a smile amongst an acre of heavy stuff. I'm very sorry that you found it to be such a serious thing. Image

Knew it was a joke Image. I have been trying to us emoticons more so that my intentions are better understood.
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Hey GetzenBassPlayer, I looked at your practice routine a few posts back... way beyond emoticons  Image Image Image
I was very impressed by your effort and commitment Image
I just wondered what we had done here  Image Image Image

emoticons... they can help.... sometimes...

Chris Stearn
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Chris, maybe you was a little bit.........don't know the word......against her. She was maybe have some fun and didn't mean so much about it. After all we can ask our self what we are doing blowing in a tube of brass and discussing what tube is best. I'm laughing of my self sometimes  And sometimes I wonder if I sounds like a fanatic priest that want all people to discover the 1 1/2g.....  Image Image Image   Image Image Image  Image Image Image  Some humor is fun sometimes. Image Image Image 


Leif



ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

I also have to say when the humor is done this is a very learning tread for most of us. Chris is some I trust because he always tell us what he mean. Good or bad. Not so often to see that.  So when a top player take the time to discuss and answear all  I'm very thankful.

Leif
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Christine, one question, There are forums for everything between heaven and earth? Discussing mouthpieces are maybe something that belongs to a trombone forum? Why surprised?

Leif
ttf_BFW
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:49 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_BFW »

Leif, she was being humorous, that's all.  She wasn't surprised, she didn't say anything was wrong with the discussion, she certainly didn't say it didn't belong on a trombone forum, she was making a remark that was intended to be funny, and which at least some of us took as intended.
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

BFW, I dont think you read my above post:
Quote from: savio on Nov 22, 2008, 04:42PM She was maybe have some fun and didn't mean so much about it.

My english is bad but........must be a pain to read of course.






ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_GetzenBassPlayer »

Quote from: blast on Nov 22, 2008, 10:50AMHey GetzenBassPlayer, I looked at your practice routine a few posts back... way beyond emoticons  Image Image Image
I was very impressed by your effort and commitment Image
I just wondered what we had done here  Image Image Image

emoticons... they can help.... sometimes...

Chris Stearn

Thank you for the kind words. I love studying the trombone with my teacher Doug Nierman. My love and understanding of music has grown under his tutelage the last eight years. I am a teacher by trade and know an effective educator when I see one. The truly exciting byproduct is I am able to take the knowledge and excitement he has given me and share it with my students. Had a lesson today and spent most of the time playing Bordogni down two octaves making sure the lines were connected and even in sound and worked on playing scale patterns in Db major in complete tune. Then taught some lessons and did a show. Now that is a good day Image
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Just a thought about how we choose mouthpieces... another way of saying what's already been said perhaps...
we often choose mouthpieces with the same logic we choose instruments... perhaps even relationships....
First impression... that initial 'wow' factor... yet many times the gloss disappears from the relationship pretty quickly... and that is often followed by multiple mouthpiece relationships.... but, that mouthpiece that was chosen by a good teacher many years ago is the one that is finally returned to.... the one that felt so strange to the kid that was just doing what they were told.
Why is this ?
A good teacher will select a mouthpiece that matches both the instrument and the player... that has qualities that compliment and enhance what the player is doing. Sometimes as we grow, that original choice is no longer optimal... but the principal of selection holds good...
It is how you act and react to the mouthpiece... how you grow into and with the mouthpiece that is important.
In the days of limited choice, teachers had a pretty good idea of the best mouthpiece for the job,
now there are so many choices that it is impossible to have a detailed knowledge of all makes and models, but we must remember to choose slowly... give the player/mouthpiece combination a chance to react and develop over time.
Hopefully we learn from each relationship and make ever better choices over time... or indeed, know when it is wise to stay with a mouthpiece that ticks all the boxes.
Make haste slowly.

Chris Stearn
ttf_boneagain
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_boneagain »

"...perhaps even relationships.."

Now THAT'S a thought-provoking post.  And a "direct hit" on the "Right mind" side of the topic! In my recent review I noticed that we were MUCH stronger on the hard-machine side of the discussion than the soft.  Maybe it is time to spend more on the soft?

We can wear gloves and still hold the horn, still operate the slide.  We can NOT have anything between our chops and the mouthpiece.  That's a very close relationship.  I wonder what the average daily chops-time of forum members is?  I wonder how many spend that much time interacting that closely with a significant other?

Let's just think about the amateurs for a bit.  Take an eight-hour daily job.  Stick an unpaid lunch hour in the middle.  Add an hour of getting around on each end.  That's eleven out of 24 hours between stopping something related to getting to work and being back home ready to do something else.  Now add on eight hours for sleep.  We're at 19 out of 24 hours.  Let's be stingy and give 1/2 hour for breakfast, and 1 hour for supper.  That leaves about 3 1/2 hours for "other things."  Where are the offspring events (children's recitals, parent teacher conferences, etc?)  How much of that is face time?

For an amateur even 1 hour of playing a day can be over a quarter of the "discretionary" time available. 

Yep.  That's a significant relationship.

And not much time.

There have been many comments in this thread about "...how much time it takes to make the sound I have in mind..."  And Chris' comment about teachers bears directly on that aspect.  How do we get the sound in our minds in the first place?  I wager our teachers, ESPECIALLY our earliest teachers, have a lot to do with that.  Perhaps in some cases we hear that teacher and say, "Wow... I want to be just like that."  Perhaps that teacher says, "Hey, take a listen to this [s]record[/s] CD and see what you think."   However it works, they train our ears as much as anything else.  And they share their experience to try to help us realize the aural images they just helped stuff into our heads. 

I'm really eager to hear what others in this thread will have to say about this side of the coin.  What characteristics of being (or not being) in our "Right minds" do we exhibit by a 1 1/2G selection?  Ultimately, balance commitment to sound characteristics, time usage, economics, etc. are the kinds of things upon which our "Right Mindedness" are assessed. 

Or do we just pick a mouthpiece without any consideration beyond the feel of the moment Image?
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

I must give Ellrod credit for first using the personal relationship analogy....  when he said he just fancied sleeping around before settling down I just fell about  Image.... but I started thinking about it and he is right... much of how we actually behave with mouthpieces seems more the result of whim and fantasy... we get sold on an idea... seduced by a fancy shape and a sales pitch and few players can actually employ cold logic in their choice and testing.
I have been trying to be logical in finding a mouthpiece that fits between me and the new Holton 169 that I have.... this is the real drawback of old horns... old horns in good condition are very rare, so if one comes up, you tend to buy it first and check if your mouthpiece works with it second.... with new horns, you buy the one that works for you AND your mouthpiece as there are lots of great new horns out there.
Well, as I have already said, the G&W Mark 1 is getting an extended test at the moment... it suits the Holton and is mega-easy to play, but I am seeing how the sound changes as I react to the mouthpiece..... during today's opera performance, the second trombonist (who said last week that he didn't like the sound of the G&W)leaned across and whispered..'that mouthpiece... it's not the same as last week's is it ?' I whispered back that the mouthpiece was the same but the face was different...
Hardest thing about a new mouthpiece... waiting to see how your face and brain react to, and with it.

Chris Stearn
ttf_boneagain
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_boneagain »

I think there is a big range of possibility between "whim and fancy" and "cold logic."  And I think that the "Right Mind" lives in there somewhere.  I refuse to get into "left brain/right brain" discussions.  But I have all the time in the world for the relative merits of intuition and the like.  If nothing else, this thread has given good representation of the incredible range of variables that go into mouthpiece selection.  We also have substantial corroboration of the power of the mind and soft-machine adaptability to make nearly anything work, sometimes flying in the face of all the variables.  There are studies of brain function that show just how few threads we can handle with our "rational" facilities.  There are also studies that only hint at how much happens when we have an implacable array of facts (often even if we don't realize we have them) and let them sit and process without our conscious "expertise." 

Bottom line answer for the question/title of the thread is, after all, "Anyone for whom the Bach 1 1/2G works." 
(Unless you are the contrarian who asks, "Which Bach 1 1/2G do you mean... the first one of the day, or the last, or the NY one, or the UMI one......)

The teacher effects I cited are seldom top-of-the-mind logical considerations when making daily musical decisions.  How many of us go, "Uh, yeah, when my first teacher had me play page one of Tune-a-Day he specifically said...."  The whole point of those early lessons was to make the content such an integral part of us that we do NOT have to constantly reconsider them.  So it's the unconscious association that pulls us this way or that, without being HAMPERED by trying too much "cold logic."

Hmmm... first Ellrod sets a new standard by reading pretty much the whole thread before launching a related (and appropriately separated) thread, then provides a useful analogy for the mouthpiece selection process... looks like he's becoming a major contributor to this thread by not actually posting in it!
ttf_The Bone Ranger
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_The Bone Ranger »

So after an eight month stint on a 1.5G, I've moved back to the 1.25 size. Back to the Hammond 20BL I was playing previous to the 1.5G, at least for the moment.

I feel like I gave the 1.5G I was playing (a Greg Black 1.5GM) a good workout in lots of situations, and thoroughly enjoyed it for the most part, but the clincher for me, in the last 3 months of so, was that I was splitting far too many notes for my liking, in ranges where it's just silly to be splitting notes, like in the staff. I worked my butt off trying to solve this for the last few months, because I really didn't want to spend time looking at my equipment again (mouthpieces especially), but things were getting beyond a joke. So I threw the Hammond back into the horn for a day, and the chipping of notes pretty much went away overnight. One month later, I'm still playing the same piece.

I really didn't want to change mouthpieces again. I want to leave those gear-swapping days behind me, and just get back to practicing, which I've done for the most part this year whilst playing the 1.5G.

I like the 1.5G for some many reasons. It's so easy to sound focused on it, which is something I strive for on every horn I play. The high range is easy - very tenor like. The sound is always crisp, lively and energetic. It reminded me how important it is to produce an exciting, vibrant sound, especially at softer dynamics.

As has been mentioned in a few threads, though, every mouthpiece is a compromise. The afore-mentioned qualities I like, and will strive for on every piece of equipment, but if constantly splitting notes is the trade-off, than that's not a fair trade, especially not in the professional orchestral situations I find myself in.

So here I am, back to square one, but with a changed attitude, I believe. The sound on the bigger piece is a little different, perhaps a little more 'modern', for lack of a better word. I've moved to the smallest leadpipe on my Edwards to offset some of the change, and to try to retain some of that 'excitement' in the sound. I'm still enjoying practicing, though, and I'm still enjoying the sound I produce. It's quite different than the sound I produced on this mouthpiece at the start of the year, as I think my priorities have changed somewhat. Energy and focus to the sound come before size of sound (and in many ways produce a big sound, anyway, especially in a good hall where you get a chance to project and bloom), which wasn't always the case.

A large part of me wonders whether my dependent, dual-bore Edwards simply prefers larger pieces. It's pretty much the most open blowing horn in the land, so I wonder whether that has an effect. I'm beginning to wonder more and more whether it's the right horn for me. I basically cobbled together parts that I thought would work well together, and in many ways it does, but not being able to try multiple parts at the factory makes it a bit of a crap-shoot. I'm beginning to think it's time to move away from thayers, to something a little more traditional...

So I'm selling off the few 1.5G's I've acquired, but keeping the Greg Black 1.5GM. I can't help but feel that my Edwards is not the horn for it, and I hope to find a home for it one day in something smaller....

Andrew (who's still looking for the right set of compromises...)





ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

It's never easy Andrew, finding a mouthpiece and trombone that work well together, fit you AND sound just the way you want... I think I said right at the start of this discussion that the old Mt Vernon Bachs are not easy mouthpieces to use.... but the sound is so wonderful. The Greg Blacks are probably the closest modern copy... but still not easy. It sounds to me like you have a mis-match between mouthpiece and horn (as you suspected) as splitting in that range is unusual indeed. As you say, all is not wasted as you have returned to the Hammond with a fresh concept, and are finding ways to make that sound idea happen. There seems to be a new generation of mouthpieces emerging that work more easily over a wide tonal and dynamic range... Hammond, Laskey and G&W all seem to fit in this catagory.... but they all have their own character, all of which are different from the old Bachs, they are generally focused on the larger sizes and the more recent sounds.
Andrew... a thought... have you tried the Griego 2 ? Christan's take on a smaller mouthpiece, and built to work with the Edwards...
just an idea...
Chris Stearn
ttf_Slidennis
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Slidennis »

Quote from: savio on Nov 22, 2008, 05:14AMIf you take away my posts thats out of topic this tread would be only 10 pages. But I think its so long because it raise  a question about a trend to get bigger and bigger equipment. Thats why we some times should stop and look back. And some of us have made a "new" discovery in this tread

Played the bass yesterday in France, next to a young French guy wanting to become a pro on bass, who bought its Getzen at Dillon's...   Plays it with a Bach 2 telling me that for him it works better that the "large" 1 1/2G....  AND that Franz Masson was using a huge mouthpiece (Bach 1 1/4 GM, and an Arnold @ Son)

On the continent, I believe "large" begins there...  already at 1.5 size Image
ttf_The Bone Ranger
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_The Bone Ranger »

Quote from: blast on Nov 24, 2008, 01:55AM
Andrew... a thought... have you tried the Griego 2 ? Christan's take on a smaller mouthpiece, and built to work with the Edwards...
just an idea...
Chris Stearn

It hadn't occured to me, but the idea makes sense. I had a bad experience with a Griego back when I played a Bach, which makes me a little gun-shy. It was a .75 Deco that flaked gold plating, and when I was using it in the practice room, I thought it was the end of my mouthpiece search, but I had trouble hearing myself in ensemble situations, and felt it didn't project like it should. Different horn, different size, different time, however....
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

I believe maybe you should try Chris advice. I did play both a big Griego (no. 1) and a 2. I don't know how they will work for you today in your horn but the Griego 2 did project nice for me. The no. 1 was giving me projecting and focus problem but of courses  thats only me.  But the point is that the big one are different from the smaller one. So maybe? They are nice to blow. And there is also a lady who Chris knows,(?) that play nr 2 with great result. Don't know why they call it 2 because its the same size as most other 1 1/2g.

And Christine I give you one of my 1 1/2g so you can join the right mind tread and maybe give us some new ideas?  Image Image Image Image
Maybe we need it boys? Image Well she did light up some here or what?  (sorry my last post for you,)

Leif
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

I also have some questions and thoughts? since some of us have had some problem finding the "right" 1 1/2g. When we have totally adopted our embouchure to a mouthpiece some say that we will sound exactly the same whatever mouthpiece we play. I believe there is something true in it but not complete true?

Chris talk about that "wow" feeling you get when trying it for first time. Sam say the same and after some days you get a downperiod. Then after some weeks the "wow" feeling should come back? Or?

I have to admit I have been trying a Warburton 1 1/2g some days.  Image I make some amateur recordings of my practice and have to admit of all the mouthpiece I have tried the Bach I have give me the sound I like best. The sound from the others are not that bad just different. But the Bach is at the same time the most difficult to play. I miss more notes on this than the others. I know many of you fix that with practice. I did have a "wow" feeling with the Warburton and deed feel I could play everything between heaven and earth. Image Is that the right "wow" feeling? I'm sure some of you had the same feeling some times? The MV "George Roberts" that I have been playing the last months is a kind of a Bach mouthpiece but when I listen my records its the Bach that have the sound I like best.

Then again I should maybe not think so much about sound. These days I play "concerts" for children from 2-5 years old. Its not the most interesting thing musically and between talking, joking, and shake off all the children hanging in my slide I still want to sound nice on what I play for them. Not easy. I still want to be in tune and be in time and have a nice sound and give some musically no matter if it is just a simple children song. . Of course I should choose a different way than let us say Mr.  Vernon in Chicago Orch. or most of all you trombonists. I don't think you have to deal with kids 2 years old hanging on the slide?  Thats not the only thing I do but I think a little on Sam´s advice. "Get the right tool for the job"

To the point. I should maybe not think so much sound since the difference is more based on my taste. Behind my horn I don't listen so much difference. Only on records. The Warburton gave me a "wow" effect I didn't have with the others. Will that effect come back after I have adopted to it some months? And please don't follow my example in choosing. Maybe you should learn from my mistakes and do it the right way that Chris and Sam tell. Maybe I'm a little hopeless.  I admire the people that just play and don't even know what mouthpiece they play. Thats the way it should be of course. Complete consentrating on the music.

Leif


ttf_WaltTrombone
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_WaltTrombone »

Leif-

It sounds like you have to try to decide if you can make the Bach work easier for you AND keep the sound that you like,

OR,

enjoy the ease with the Warburton, and hope you can make it sound like the Bach.


(I think it will be easier to fix the mistakes you make on the Bach, than to make the Warburton sound like the Bach. Either way, it's a lot of work.) Image
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Well Leif, that sound clip you posted a while back sounded great... and I really mean that... I was very impressed with that sound.. whatever you were using.
You ask very good questions... in an ideal world we should make the perfect sound with faultless technique... but NOBODY lives in that perfect world and we all make compromises.
There has been much discussed here that has led to no conclusion in particular, but I think I can say that most are agreed that nothing else sounds exactly like a good Bach 1 1/2G.... some of the variations are considered better by some players, but all are just a little different. Many players don't like the small mouthpiece sound at all.
It has also been said that a Bach 1 1/2G is not the easiest mouthpiece to play.... many times... so I think we can agree on that too...
so in the end, we have to make a choice.... and I think for the professionals amongst us (as in you Savio) results have to be uppermost.
You will probably not lose work if you don't produce your own idea of the perfect sound, but you are bound to if you split or miss notes in your work... we are paid for results.
If a Bach 1 1/2G works for you and your instrument, fine.... if not, as Sam says, use what works.
We are now at 40 pages of head scratching, and still no ultimate conclusion... because there never will be one.
If there was one answer, this would be a boring world.... but we must not stop asking the questions just because of that...

Chris Stearn

ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Since some have asked me about the Warburton 1 1/2g and  there is not much info about I can give some info. Not so many playing it?

The mouthpiece is maybe a bit bigger than a regular Bach but not much. I can just say what I feel about it. The rim feels a bit wider. Gives me some more endurance. The cup looks more V shape than the Bach. But my Bach is extremely cup shaped. Its some more massive than a Bach. Makes it slot easier. The edge from rim to cup is rounder or it feels so. But the attack is nice and clean..

How it blows is difficult to say because I have just been one week on it. I'm not sure about it and the sound. And it will be different from person to person.  But its a nice mouthpiece no doubt about that. The sound will maybe be better after some days.   I love the sound from my Bach.

I see there are not so many playing this mouthpiece? I wonder why because its obvious a good one.

Leif
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Nobody knows about it Savio.... it falls outside Warburton's main ranges... I told him that I thought it was nice and he said he thought so too (but then he would, wouldn't he ?)a hidden gem... for some.

Chris Stearn
ttf_Birdy
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Birdy »

I'm currently trialling a Rath B1 1/2W as the Schilke 58 I was using has become uncomfortable on my face with the Duo Gravis I'm now using.

First impressions are- wow Image

The piece still retains plenty of core and focus in the sound in the staff, and when you get down into the pedal register to me it almost plays as open as the 59 I've got.

Also, it's a great match for the Duo Gravis and it's a bit more forgiving air-wise in the trigger register.

All in all, I think I've found the perfect combo for getting the sound I've got in my head out of the bellend. The only problem now is- what on earth do I blame my standard of playing on now? Image
ttf_boneagain
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_boneagain »

Do I hear another "Thank you Chris!" ringing in? Image
ttf_Birdy
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Birdy »

Quote from: boneagain on Dec 02, 2008, 05:40PMDo I hear another "Thank you Chris!" ringing in? Image

Absolutely!
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

You guys are too kind.... I almost feel embarrassed  Image
Since I've never made a penny out of the Rath designs, it is nice to get some thanks when people like the B1 1/2W and on the more general front regarding the value of the older sizes and sounds in bass trombone mouthpieces, I am but one person amongst many who are looking again at this area of our craft and trying to find that bassbone characteristic sound that I grew up with.

Chris Stearn
ttf_Bellend
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Bellend »

Hey Savio,


I have a Warburton 1.5G and would urge you to stick with it for at least a month before making any sort of judgement about it.

It is not quite the same sound as the Bach but is not THAT different, and anyway, the longer you play any mouthpiece the more ones natural sound will come through only to be coloured by the mouthpiece.

I think the rim makes the most difference from the Bach as the attack is not quite the same due to it being a bit wider, however, give it time and your 'soft machine' as Sabutin like to call it will adjust.


After a lot of experimenting I've come to the conclusion that for me this is the largest mouthpiece I've found that still gives me what I ( and from what I've seen you post) you think of as a proper bass trombone sound.

Any bigger than this and the middle starts to go out of the sound, and it's all down hill in to 'flabbyland' from there  Image



FWIW


BellEnd
ttf_savio
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

I agree Bellend. I don't feel the Warburton is in flabbyland but the sound is getting more round while playing it. I play 2 and 3 concerts in kindergarden (is that German?) everyday now and feel this mouthpiece is very safe. I play some soft tunes to demonstrate the trombone is not only loud. And playing pp in the middle register is a good test to see if you still have a edge and core in the sound. I think the Warburton have so.

By the way I have another mouthpiece I ordered from Dillons because I'm curious. I got it some days ago and its a "conn roberts". Only 15 dollars.  In the situation I'm in now I have no chance to test it so I just blow it for 5 minutes and didn't exactly say hurray. When playing pp on this I could not get a decent sound. No core.  And I did see the backbore was very big. The air seems to just go right true. And the mouthpiece went very long into the leadpipe. Maybe a "wrong made" mouthpiece that ends up in the Dillon shop?  I'm sure Mr. Roberts could play it but I don't think I can.

Next week I will have a church concert (together with all my learning kids Image) and I have a good feeling about it because the Warburton is  safe and works for me. I dont play difficult stuff but have to play some solo of course.


Leif
ttf_Bellend
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Bellend »

Leif,

Glad to hear you are enjoying the Warburton.
I like your description that the mouthpiece is very safe, I feel that as well.


I had the Conn Roberts mouthpiece a long time ago and it didn't work for me either.
It felt like I was working much to hard to centre notes, and the rim had an unusual contour from memory that didn't fit my face very well at all.Sure there are some folks who love em' but not me.



BellEnd
ttf_slidejj
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_slidejj »

I finally tried a Griego 2 with my Eddie and am pleased with the results.  The Rath 1-1/2W was working for most of my playing but when I had to push the envelop in both low range and loud volume it didn't seem to mesh with the horn.  Well I had such a gig this past weekend and the G-2 worked great.  The rim is narrower than the W but feels somewhat like it to my face, and wider than the narrow cookie cutter bass rims; more tenor like which I like.  The cup is about as deep as a 0AL but the throat and backbore are tighter.   It's much different from the Griego 1.5 and 1.25 models I tried in the past which sounded great in the practice room but not so well with a large ensemble, for me.  It projects great and sounds very much like a 1.5, at least the ones with a 1.25ish cup.  It may not match up with horns designed for a 1.5 or 2G, but does seem to match up to the Getwards line, at least the one I have.
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

It is essential that the mouthpiece and horn work together as you have found slidejj.... glad it worked as I thought. Instrument/mouthpiece match could well be the biggest reason for so many differing opinions about the various mouthpieces on offer.

Chris Stearn
ttf_gbedinger
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_gbedinger »

I have gone the Schilke 60 route, then Elliot LB113 and am now playing a Bach 1 1/2g with my 169.  The mouthpiece really seems to match the horn...I still sound like me but the tone cannot be beat with the larger mouthpieces.
ttf_slidejj
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_slidejj »

For a long time I thought it was me instead of the mouthpiece/horn combo after choosing to go back to the 1.5 size piece.  Eventually I realized I was hitting a wall and began looking for a 1.5 size rim with a deeper 1.25ish or so cup.  Since I had a not so great experience with the larger Griego's I was reluctant to try the 2 although I came close more than once.  "Better late than never" I guess.  Image

Quote from: blast on Dec 08, 2008, 08:12AMIt is essential that the mouthpiece and horn work together as you have found slidejj.... glad it worked as I thought. Instrument/mouthpiece match could well be the biggest reason for so many differing opinions about the various mouthpieces on offer.

Chris Stearn

ttf_MoominDave
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_MoominDave »

Quote from: slidejj on Dec 08, 2008, 11:52AMEventually I realized I was hitting a wall and began looking for a 1.5 size rim with a deeper 1.25ish or so cup.

How does the Bach 1.5GM match up to your desires? 1.25 back end on a 1.5 front end... I think it's a pretty nice piece.
ttf_blast
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: MoominDave on Dec 08, 2008, 02:54PMHow does the Bach 1.5GM match up to your desires? 1.25 back end on a 1.5 front end... I think it's a pretty nice piece.


That's not actually what the 1.5GM is...it's the same cup as 1.5 with bore and backbore of 1.25GM and 1G.... obviously works in some applications.

Chris Stearn
ttf_CRWV
Posts: 0
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_CRWV »

::cough unbalanced cough::
Post Reply

Return to “Mouthpieces”