Logistics: How do I shorten a tuning slide?

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:48 pm

I'd like a slightly shorter tuning slide. I am 100% sure I can't DIY this.

I have no idea how this works, so I am turning to you and seeking your advice for the n00b modder.

Where do I start??

Who would I conventionally reach out to?
Local band instrument repairpeople,
nationally renowned craftspeople,
the company that made the horn,
enthusiastic DIYers on the forum?

Do I need to commission someone to build me a custom part, or would this sort of thing be an easy modification to an existing part?
Should I know specific specifications, beyond "I want to be able to push the tuning slide in further"? Like what? How would I figure that out?

I'm not looking for anything fancy... just functional, and slightly shorter than what I've currently got, and a non-leaky fit with the rest of the horn.

Background: My Wessex bass 'bone (PBF562), with me trying to play it with a 2G, is close to in tune if I play with the tuning slide all the way in, with 1st position squished into the bumpers. It has been this way since I started playing the horn a year and a half ago. I've made progress in other areas of bass trombone playing, but not this one, and it is getting frustrating, and a shorter tuning slide seems to me like a plausible solution.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:09 pm

From the Wessex website:

QuoteAll Wessex Tubas and Brass instruments come with a 3-year, peace of mind warranty
You can buy in confidence, as we will give full refund in the unlikely event you are unsatisfied and return within 2 weeks. Furthermore we offer 3-year guarantee against manufacturing defects which is much more than most leading brands.
I would pursue it as a defect - many Chinese horns have tuning issues, and Wessex claims to have great customer service, so check it out.

ttf_Zandit75 · Post by **ttf_Zandit75** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:19 pm

Does a different lead pipe help with intonation?
Does this Trom have different lead pipes available?

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:52 pm

I had to chop my Holton TR181.

With a tuning machine I gauged how flat my horn was with everything in and then measured how much of a hand slide motion was equivalent to that flatness.

I had a repair shop remove slightly more than that amount from the ends of the tuning slide and from the end of the tubes the tuning slide fit into.

It was also necessary to remove the cross brace on the tuning slide so that it would not be hitting the tubing for the F valve.

ttf_thebicyclist · Post by **ttf_thebicyclist** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:32 pm

Quote from: LowrBrass on Nov 28, 2017, 08:48PMBackground: My Wessex bass 'bone (PBF562), with me trying to play it with a 2G, is close to in tune if I play with the tuning slide all the way in, with 1st position squished into the bumpers. It has been this way since I started playing the horn a year and a half ago. I've made progress in other areas of bass trombone playing, but not this one, and it is getting frustrating, and a shorter tuning slide seems to me like a plausible solution.

As Doug said, chase this up with Wessex. I owned one of those instruments for 12 months (and was generally happy with it expect for the ergonomics) but when I received it the F valve tuning slide has a small leak at one of the ferules, and couple of emails had a replacement slide turn up fairly quickly. It was a good customer service experience

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:46 pm

Thanks, all. This is helpful.

Zandit: As far as I can tell, the leadpipe seems as non-removable as the one soldered into my Bach. But I've been wrong before.

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:50 pm

P.S. Linking Harrison's response in the OTHER thread where I b!tched about this issue, for the sake of keeping all these ideas together, and because otherwise I will forget that this post was in a different thread.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Nov 29, 2017, 07:26AMlots of people shorten their tuning slides, especially bass players using mouthpieces that are way too big. It's not a big deal. Most good techs can do it for relatively low prices too. They just cut length off of the stockings and the cylindrical tubes the stockings go into.

I shortened my alto about 6 months ago.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:26 pm

Wessex will probably do it for free, but if you have somebody else do the work it will both cost money and void the warranty.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:33 am

I am sure Wessex will do it for free.
But it probably takes some time to have it done.
All tech have done this to many Bach bass trombones and some Holtons, it is not expencive.

If you are sure about the horn, you like it and want to keep it I do suggest that you find a pro tech and have it done by him/her.

It is a myth that it is because of of to big mouthpieces that makes the bass trombones flatt, Bach trombones has at least for last 60 years been sold with a 1 1/2 G. Still very often flatt. The Chinese has probably copied a misstake from American manufactures. Bach bass trombones are often flatt.

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:15 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Nov 29, 2017, 09:26PMWessex will probably do it for free, but if you have somebody else do the work it will both cost money and void the warranty.

Started drafting the letter to Wessex yesterday. Writing takes me a looong time.

Quote from: svenlarsson on Nov 30, 2017, 02:33AMI am sure Wessex will do it for free.
But it probably takes some time to have it done.
All tech have done this to many Bach bass trombones and some Holtons, it is not expencive.

If you are sure about the horn, you like it and want to keep it I do suggest that you find a pro tech and have it done by him/her.

I am indeed uneasy about sending it away for months, but is that why you recommend a local tech?

Quote from: svenlarsson on Nov 30, 2017, 02:33AMIt is a myth that it is because of of to big mouthpieces that makes the bass trombones flatt, Bach trombones has at least for last 60 years been sold with a 1 1/2 G. Still very often flatt. The Chinese has probably copied a misstake from American manufactures. Bach bass trombones are often flatt.

That's nuts. I had no idea.

Do all Bach/Holton horns have aftermarket-shortened tuning slides, or is it just accepted that bass trombone players generally play flat?

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:32 am

The requirements of horn length are determined by mouthpiece cup depth plus oral cavity size.

Modern humans have larger oral cavities due to their larger size than adults 60 years ago. It adds to the flatness of horns designed pre-WWII...which is most horns.
Pitch has also gone up to 442 in most places.

So, buy the cheapo hacksaw for $4 and hack away. Four cuts and if they're not long enough cut again.

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:00 am

^ This is BS, of course.

Don't do anything by yourself. I would send the horn to a tech who happens to be a good bass trombonist so you can be sure to get tuning to where it should be and the horn will be usable to other players. Benn Hansson in Seattle comes to mind.

ttf_MikeBMiller · Post by **ttf_MikeBMiller** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:27 am

Just for fun, have you had other players try the horn? How about trying another mouthpiece? I had a similar problem once trying to play my Edwards tenor with a Schilke 58 to cover some quasi bass parts. Everything was really flat on that mp, although the horn itself was fine with a different one.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:39 am

One of the things I offer in my mouthpieces is a slightly smaller shank which goes in a little farther and helps a little.

I play a Kuhnl & Hoyer Slokar tenor and I had them make me a shorter tuning slide for it because I had trouble playing it up to pitch.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:06 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Nov 30, 2017, 05:32AMSo, buy the cheapo hacksaw for $4 and hack away. Four cuts and if they're not long enough cut again.

Interpret that as internet hyperbole.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:45 am

From Philadelphia there are a lot of great techs only a short drive away in Baltimore or metro New York (and maybe even in Philly). Wessex has a branch in Michigan, but I don't think they have any repair facilities there.

Bass trombone players often play flat because they are using too big a mouthpiece in order to favor the lowest notes (which are only a very small percentage of the ones you are called to play). But a 2G is already on the small side of bass trombone mouthpieces. Maybe you need some embouchure work. Mostly exercises like LONG TONES against a drone. Work on bringing up the center of the pitch. A lesson with Doug Elliott might help a lot although there are many teachers who could also help (I am not one).

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:59 am

Trumpet players getting a flugelhorn for the first time usually play it very flat. After a while they figure it out and the pitch comes up to normal. (Or as normal as a flugelhorn is)

The same CAN be true for a beginning bass trombonist, but the simple fact is that Bach and others build instruments that are on the flat side and many times it's a problem for everybody, not just beginners.

I would guess that Wessex will build you a shorter tuning slide and you won't have to send your horn anywhere.

And by the way, you can accomplish the same thing in an even better way by shortening the handslide, but that's a lot more work.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:14 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Nov 30, 2017, 08:59AMTrumpet players getting a flugelhorn for the first time usually play it very flat. After a while they figure it out and the pitch comes up to normal. (Or as normal as a flugelhorn is)

The same CAN be true for a beginning bass trombonist, but the simple fact is that Bach and others build instruments that are on the flat side and many times it's a problem for everybody, not just beginners.

I would guess that Wessex will build you a shorter tuning slide and you won't have to send your horn anywhere.

And by the way, you can accomplish the same thing in an even better way by shortening the handslide, but that's a lot more work.

Even with two rotors, there are times when we bass trombonists need to play C in seventh. Most handslides are a little short for this already. I recall the Conn 72H being just long enough. Shortening the handslide will take that note away. Of course, we COULD lip it... but I'd rather have it on the slide.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:28 am

I understand that, but 1/4" (or less) off the handslide would easily fix the pitch of the whole horn, and not make much difference in the playability of that ONE note.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:10 pm

It's like no matter what you do there's always some drawback.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:36 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Nov 30, 2017, 08:59AMTrumpet players getting a flugelhorn for the first time usually play it very flat. After a while they figure it out and the pitch comes up to normal. (Or as normal as a flugelhorn is)

The same CAN be true for a beginning bass trombonist, but the simple fact is that Bach and others build instruments that are on the flat side and many times it's a problem for everybody, not just beginners.

I would guess that Wessex will build you a shorter tuning slide and you won't have to send your horn anywhere.

And by the way, you can accomplish the same thing in an even better way by shortening the handslide, but that's a lot more work.

I can attest to this. Took me a solid week of half-hour sessions on my ACB doubler so my body could understand how to play it in tune. I also bought a mouthpiece with a matching rim size but Im finding now that I can play in-tune even going back to the stock slightly larger piece.

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:06 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Nov 30, 2017, 09:28AMI understand that, but 1/4" (or less) off the handslide would easily fix the pitch of the whole horn, and not make much difference in the playability of that ONE note.
Particularly when it is often only the outer slide that is shortened there... can change the length of the stroke on the slide if you dont cut the inner.

ttf_ghmerrill · Post by **ttf_ghmerrill** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:42 am

Has anyone else played this horn -- in order to determine that it's the horn that's flat? If not, then before you explore getting it "fixed" (i.e., hacked up a bit), this might be a good step to take.

Unless I'm mistaken, this Wessex bass is a 7B clone and essentially isomorphic to my Schiller. And I'd be surprised to discover that there's something specific about this particular instrument that makes it "a little flat" -- particularly in the context of a tenor trombonist switching to bass.

My horn, at least, is NOT flat -- even with a larger mouthpiece and more open lead pipe in it. I typically (depending on ambient temperature) do not play with the tuning slides pushed all the way in, and yes, it did take a while to establish the embouchure. I just have to be a bit skeptical that the Wessex (which is -- should we say -- more carefully made and about three times the cost of my Schiller) is faulty in this way. It could be, of course, but having a competent bass trombonist play it would probably determine this pretty quickly and possibly avoid a great deal of complexity in achieving the correct solution. Shortening the instrument would not be the best approach to solving what may be an embouchure issue, eh?

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:50 am

Quote from: LowrBrass on Nov 30, 2017, 05:15AM...

That's nuts. I had no idea.

Do all Bach/Holton horns have aftermarket-shortened tuning slides, or is it just accepted that bass trombone players generally play flat?

Don't get carried away here. The Bachs were on the flat side. But none of the many I have bought/sold had been modified to be sharper. And the Holtons are definitely not on the flat side. The problem might just be an underdeveloped embouchure. I would get more time on the horn before deciding to do anything.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:24 am

Quote from: greenbean on Dec 01, 2017, 04:50AMThe problem might just be an underdeveloped embouchure. I would get more time on the horn before deciding to do anything.

Is it an underdeveloped embouchure that causes things to go flat? I don't think this is a hard and fast rule. Most brass players I've met who are weak players have their tuning slides dangling on the ends of the stockings. More often than very strong players do. And about as often as I see strong players with the tuning slide out 1cm or less.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:37 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Dec 01, 2017, 05:24AMIs it an underdeveloped embouchure that causes things to go flat? I don't think this is a hard and fast rule. Most brass players I've met who are weak players have their tuning slides dangling on the ends of the stockings. More often than very strong players do. And about as often as I see strong players with the tuning slide out 1cm or less.

You may be right. Perhaps those who play with a wider and more relaxed embouchure tend to play a little flat while enjoying a big, fat & round sound; while those who play with a narrower and less relaxed embouchure and with a more focused sound tend to play sharp. It would seem to make sense, at least to me, if no one else. And if I (we) are right, it also could account for those who can play with a huge sound on small equipment vs those who can play with a very focused sound on large equipment, size & shape of mpc not-withstanding.

What does this all have to do with having to shorten a tuning slide to play in tune? It could be one reason (of many possible reasons) for it.

...Geezer

ttf_ghmerrill · Post by **ttf_ghmerrill** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:08 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Dec 01, 2017, 05:24AMIs it an underdeveloped embouchure that causes things to go flat? I don't think this is a hard and fast rule.

True, but in cases like this (player inexperienced on the instrument) it is something that needs to be considered early on -- and it's easy to adjudicate just by getting an experienced bass trombonist to play the instrument. I find that in particular whenever I switch to a larger mouthpiece or larger diameter mouthpiece (on trombone, tuba, or euphonium), my pitch goes at least a bit flat because the mouthpiece isn't providing the "close support" that the smaller mouthpiece does.

This phenomenon is well known. And some mouthpieces are simply "too big" for me (i.e., the large Perantucci mouthpieces on tuba or the Doug Yeo on bass trombone). Even when I pick up my euphonium after a long period of not playing it, I need to work at getting the pitch up with my DE (pretty big for euphonium) mouthpiece while my Wick 5AL doesn't present a problem at all.

Again, this sort of thing is well known and widely experienced and deserves to be tested before more dramatic approaches are taken. My guess is that it's the first thing Wessex would (quite rightly) suggest before committing to warranty work. And it's only fair.

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:57 am

Wow. This is awesome. Thanks for all the ideas, ya'll.

Re: Maybe I have a weak embouchure:
Yes, that's possible! I've held off on seriously considering this mod because I have been assuming the problem is me, not the horn.

But it's been a year and a half, and I've made progress in other areas of bass trombone playing, but zero progress with the tuning slide thing. Zero.

If I am being totally honest, I am an amateur with limited time and talent. Even if the problem IS me... well, that's part of the imperfect equipment I'm dealing with. I don't want to bank on the hope that maybe my embouchure will eventually improve if I'm really strict about a practice routine. It is more likely that I will find LESS time to practice in upcoming years, thus making my future embouchure even weaker.

So. I imagine that's not a popular viewpoint around here. I'm just being honest.

And guys, come on, I'm not desecrating a vintage Duo Gravis or something.

Re: Have I tried other mouthpieces?
Yes. The horn came with a 1 1/2G. I downsized to a 2G after 4 months. Lately, I have been experimenting with a 5GS and the original 1 1/2G.
Experiment results:
The 5GS pushes the tuning slide out half an inch (!!!) (I was very excited when I discovered this)
The 1 1/2 G pushes the horn too flat to use in an ensemble. I don't know exactly how many cents.

Re: Have I had other people try the horn?
Yes, but only tenor trombone players.
All the good bass trombone players I know don't want to touch my "Chinese" horn.
Maybe I can bribe one of them to try it as a favor to me, specifically to analyze the tuning, and report back whenever that happens.
But even so: See point #1. I'm the person playing it, and it's too flat for me at whatever skill level I'm at.
Whether Wessex does it for free or I have to pay for this to happen... I kinda want this.

Re: Well, you should have someone else try it.
OK, OK! I'll do it before I write to Wessex.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:48 am

Having even a single lesson would answer a lot of your questions.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:48 am

Having even a single lesson would answer a lot of your questions.